5.2 Trinkets Discussion

[Carp The Fish]

Riiiight, becasue all your crit comes from crit rating and 10 energy per second is soooo much lower, than 11 energy per second (this excludes venomous vim procs).

P.S. Since MoP rogue posions affected by melee (and not spell) stats, if you didn't know.

...so it takes energy regen to your Level 1 levels even though you have no Haste rating.
That's still terrible; we will have more Haste on our gear this tier, and when that's coupled with the loss of Crit rating (Agility-Crit not included), CP generation would be terrible.

As I said before, Rune is an okay trinket if you're playing it correctly (10 CPs saved going into the buff, close-to-capped energy, 8-10 second Envenom uptime during the proc), but it will be hard to use on anything other than Jin'rokh, Iron Qon, or Magaera.
Using it on movement-heavy fights like Horridon would be like picking a low-tier character in UMvC3: sure it might work if you have the right strategy, but getting the opponent to cooperate with that strategy will be....difficult, to say the least.

Hey Ryme, what spec(s) is that list supposed to be for? If it's for Combat or Mut, I'd at least put heroic Rune above NM Bad Juju...

[sved]

Upload your toon to shadowcraft, auto-reforge and see what dps value your current gear set has now. Switch out a trinket for the shapan one and auto-reforge again and see what the value of the trinket to your toon is. There are too many factors into what YOU should get, guild progression, current gear stats. Shadowcraft is great for window shopping gear.

[Ryme]

Hey Ryme, what spec(s) is that list supposed to be for? If it's for Combat or Mut, I'd at least put heroic Rune above NM Bad Juju...

It's for Mutilate, it was off an incredibly early iteration of work. New list (using 15% haste value) comes out as follows:

Talisman of Bloodlust (H)
Renataki's Soul Charm (H)
Bottle of Infinite Stars (H DU)
Bad Juju (H)
Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
Bottle of Infinite Stars (H SU)
Talisman of Bloodlust
Renataki's Soul Charm
Bottle of Infinite Stars (H)
Bad JuJu
Terror in the Mists (H)
Bottle of Infinite Stars
Talisman of Bloodlust (RF)
Renataki's Soul Charm (RF)
Relic of Xuen
Terror in the Mists
Bad Juju (RF)
Bottle of Infinite Stars (RF)
Terror in the Mists (RF)


I'm very wearing about using such basic formulaic approaches to modelling Rune, it's such a complex trinket something is bound to get lost (unless we start applying some proper calculus). In honesty, I don't really like modelling ToB in such ways either (the stacking haste is going to effect each subsequent stack proc chance) - So I cheated and used simulations to get accurate uptime %s for each stack, so that's something to consider***


Once I get home and away from all my companies internet security, I'll try and remember to post a thread detailing the basic maths involved since there's usually an error in these things until you get someone to double check it for you.


***Reminds me, I only simmed it for one version of the trinket, probably heroic but I can't recall now. But that means that some of it's subsequent mentions are slightly off.

[Mazius]

...so it takes energy regen to your Level 1 levels even though you have no Haste rating.
That's still terrible; we will have more Haste on our gear this tier

That's slightly different from

your energy regen would be shot

So, you loosing 10 energy (@ ~4250 haste rating), or 20 (@8500) for duration of the proc. VM should give you at least 30 energy during those 10 sec.
Pretty much enough to perform at least one 5 cp envenom, and those 7 seconds (t15 bonus) would be enough.

and when that's coupled with the loss of Crit rating (Agility-Crit not included), CP generation would be terrible.

I have slightly above 5% crit from crit rating on my gear atm. So would go from 28% to 23% (raid buffed) for duration of the proc. Soooo terrible, idd.
Not to mention that assassination has best mastery scaling among rogue specs, and converting 6300 rating from haste and crit (my current stats) into 12600 mastery rating (+74% poison damage) gonna be soooo bad...

I hope all got the memo?

- Increase your highest secondary stat by 200% of the sum of your two lowest secondary stats.

[fierydemise]

I assume you were using the Simcraft BiS profile for your first iteration? I believe that was written before the RPPM change and stack haste may have been more viable, now that looks somewhat less likely.

I'd also suggest perhaps adding a no-expertise or partial expertise value for Renataki's because getting the full amount of expertise out of that trinket seems unlikely.

On Rune, I agree that the simple net EP approach I used above probably isn't perfect but unlike many other classes rogues don't have a lot of mechanics that allow gaming a Rune proc, mastery stacked snd as sub is the only thing I can think of, so its probably good enough.

Finally, these results do appear to basically line up with some numbers I generated about a week ago using ShadowCraft (assuming 15% haste). The big differences appear to be Rune (which Shadowcraft overvalues) and valuing bad juju over Renataki's which I can't really explain.

heroic_rune_of_re_origination:             8150.60398111
rune_of_re_origination:                    7624.60920889
lfr_rune_of_re_origination:                6935.27921793
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust:              6596.637752
heroic_bad_juju:                           6130.44838755
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars:           6051.6123688
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm:               5957.80103096
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 5880.67566638
talisman_of_bloodlust:                     5840.55418331
bad_juju:                                  5425.2506668
renatakis_soul_charm:                      5272.44799846
heroic_terror_in_the_mists:                5268.2319352
bottle_of_infinite_stars:                  5149.39092107
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust:                 4848.9423647
relic_of_xuen:                             4696.84150601
terror_in_the_mists:                       4564.50298282
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars:              4557.68154986
lfr_bad_juju:                              4500.01883585
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm:                  4373.21989686
lfr_terror_in_the_mists:                   4045.03575646
hawkmasters_talon:                         3965.33713008
jade_bandit_figurine:                      3965.33713008
searing_words:                             3657.33973453
windswept_pages:                           3377.91008085
flashing_steel_talisman:                   2938.18701435

[Ryme]

I'm using Simulationcraft for my stat weight values and their BiS profile (which is usually off in some minor way in these early days). The first iteration was off as I was overvaluing the effect haste had on RPPM trinkets, I should be back on track now though.

I have RSC about 7% ahead of Bad Juju, but, again, I'm making dangerous assumptions about how well you can handle all that expertise - I wouldn't take too much of my current RSC valuations to heart yet, I need to find a way to work out where a good approximation lies yet.

[Coldkil]

I must say thanks to everyone in there since due to extra work schedule i cannot look directly at trinkets for this pacth.

Back on topic: i'm checking the lists provided by various users and making my own maths - i'm getting nearly the same results (with all the pros and cons of that).

And again, Rune is a so bad trinket that is really complicated to figure out and if everything goes well, the bonus is lame. Interesting by a theorycrafter pov because we need to take a different approach at things, but still a bad design for the game.

[Deleted]

I've nearly finished working on some very basic spreadsheet work on trinkets, just figuring out talisman of bloodlust's placement. But beside, Shado-Pan friendly trinket in my calculations comes just slightly ahead of bottle of infinite stars heroic. Once the sheet is done, I'll post and let you clever little rogues scrutinise at your pleasure.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 10:52 AM ----------

As a preliminary, assuming the absolute best of luck (realistic results to follow in a new thread), this is where I hold trinkets:

Renataki's Soul Charm (H)
Talisman of Bloodlust (H)
Bad Juju (H)
Renataki's Soul Charm
Talisman of Bloodlust
Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
Bad JuJu
Bottle of Infinite Stars (H)
Terror in the Mists (H)
Renataki's Soul Charm (RF)
Bottle of Infinite Stars
Talisman of Bloodlust (RF)
Bad Juju (RF)
Terror in the Mists
Relic of Xuen
Bottle of Infinite Stars (RF)
Terror in the Mists (RF)

Note: This is also measured at the T15 BiS haste level.

Hey Ryme.. and everyone..

Can anyone confirm this as the BiS trink list? Getting a few different results from various theorycrafters (and well done for the effort). I've currently got the HC Bottle, VP assault trink, HC terror and Bad Juju - was wondering which is the best combo.

Good luck and thanks,

Mutix

[Maelstrom51]

Hey Ryme.. and everyone..

Can anyone confirm this as the BiS trink list? Getting a few different results from various theorycrafters (and well done for the effort). I've currently got the HC Bottle, VP assault trink, HC terror and Bad Juju - was wondering which is the best combo.

Good luck and thanks,

Mutix

I would check Shadowcraft and find out what is best for your gear. The only one Shadowcraft will be very inaccurate on is Rune of Re-Origination, which you don't have.

[Syxxed]

Hey guys I understand all of this - that shado-pan offensive will be a main trinket until and perhaps through H ToT and that H Bottle is better than normal juju.
I was wondering if normal bad juju is better than relugar bottle (2/2 upgrade - 497 ilvl). I did not get lucky enough to recieve a heroic bottle (I will still be trying to) yet and am wondering if i can replace it (2/2) with bad juju and if it would be worth it? My toon is Bloodbladex on Zul'jin. I will VERY soon be getting the valor trink to replace the other darkmoon fair trinket so dont worry about that.

[Deleted]

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler

We also added some protection to the ToT RPPM trinkets to avoid streaks of bad luck and buffed some to boot. Details soon.

Hopefully they buff the trinkets... don't looking forward in using my 2/2 h bottle all T15. -.-

[Maelstrom51]

Hopefully they buff the trinkets... don't looking forward in using my 2/2 h bottle all T15. -.-

Agreed. The cost of them could use a hefty buff, and Rune could use a complete overhaul.

[jtstormrage]

Here are trinket numbers for all three specs from EJ:

Trinkets :

Combat :
heroic_rune_of_re_origination: 7651.1559335
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust: 7172.9323069
rune_of_re_origination: 7127.55363101
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm: 7088.75103413
lfr_rune_of_re_origination: 6441.35903459
talisman_of_bloodlust: 6351.36491611
renatakis_soul_charm: 6274.06068871
heroic_bad_juju: 6248.65724114
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 6069.06944712
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 5759.79050482
bad_juju: 5530.22572453
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust: 5273.51783002
heroic_terror_in_the_mists: 5226.42288042
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm: 5205.13331759
bottle_of_infinite_stars: 5152.70534325
relic_of_xuen: 4690.43363381
lfr_bad_juju: 4587.4494186
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 4561.04815342
terror_in_the_mists: 4526.25789735
hawkmasters_talon: 4184.05142327
jade_bandit_figurine: 4184.05142327
lfr_terror_in_the_mists: 4011.26857457
searing_words: 3677.89732142
windswept_pages: 3641.65721572
flashing_steel_talisman: 3090.44327156

Assa :
Assassination:
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust: 6351.12434642
heroic_rune_of_re_origination: 6169.99067896
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 5814.85427673
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 5689.13455441
rune_of_re_origination: 5650.0860901
talisman_of_bloodlust: 5623.19498234
heroic_bad_juju: 5611.85198751
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm: 5495.40385153
heroic_terror_in_the_mists: 5128.60270916
lfr_rune_of_re_origination: 4968.73744469
bad_juju: 4966.35237112
bottle_of_infinite_stars: 4946.10949944
renatakis_soul_charm: 4863.26220753
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust: 4668.53844031
relic_of_xuen: 4587.97646653
terror_in_the_mists: 4447.06157551
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 4377.50663215
lfr_bad_juju: 4119.4069302
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm: 4033.822409
lfr_terror_in_the_mists: 3940.96465746
hawkmasters_talon: 3889.23278196
jade_bandit_figurine: 3889.23278196
searing_words: 3527.47263915
windswept_pages: 3299.72974283
flashing_steel_talisman: 2846.64259977

Sub :
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust: 8289.80698527 (6.55%)
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 7520.01222189 (5.94%)
heroic_bad_juju: 7429.65319778 (5.87%)
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 7355.92988352
talisman_of_bloodlust: 7340.12337636 (5.80%)
heroic_rune_of_re_origination: 7322.03198365 (5.79%)
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm: 7204.30417804 (5.70%)
rune_of_re_origination: 6628.82233081 (5.24%)
bad_juju: 6574.42826037 (5.20%)
relic_of_xuen: 6454.85365535 (5.10%)
heroic_terror_in_the_mists: 6389.7041056 (5.05%)
bottle_of_infinite_stars: 6388.71763105 (5.05%)
renatakis_soul_charm: 6374.9625015 (5.04%)
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust: 6094.50851528 (4.82%)
lfr_rune_of_re_origination: 5720.35283841 (4.52%)
terror_in_the_mists: 5662.16468148 (4.48%)
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 5653.82790362 (4.47%)
lfr_bad_juju: 5452.36422185 (4.31%)
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm: 5286.82897609 (4.18%)
lfr_terror_in_the_mists: 5017.98275249 (3.97%)

Maybe we can sticky this or something because there are so many questions and threads about trinkets it is tiresome.

Here is the post: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130892-...1/#post2263256. I take no credit whatsoever.

[Tehstool]

Here are trinket numbers for all three specs from EJ:

Trinkets :

Combat :
heroic_rune_of_re_origination: 7651.1559335
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust: 7172.9323069
rune_of_re_origination: 7127.55363101
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm: 7088.75103413
lfr_rune_of_re_origination: 6441.35903459
talisman_of_bloodlust: 6351.36491611
renatakis_soul_charm: 6274.06068871
heroic_bad_juju: 6248.65724114
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 6069.06944712
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 5759.79050482
bad_juju: 5530.22572453
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust: 5273.51783002
heroic_terror_in_the_mists: 5226.42288042
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm: 5205.13331759
bottle_of_infinite_stars: 5152.70534325
relic_of_xuen: 4690.43363381
lfr_bad_juju: 4587.4494186
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 4561.04815342
terror_in_the_mists: 4526.25789735
hawkmasters_talon: 4184.05142327
jade_bandit_figurine: 4184.05142327
lfr_terror_in_the_mists: 4011.26857457
searing_words: 3677.89732142
windswept_pages: 3641.65721572
flashing_steel_talisman: 3090.44327156

Assa :
Assassination:
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust: 6351.12434642
heroic_rune_of_re_origination: 6169.99067896
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 5814.85427673
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 5689.13455441
rune_of_re_origination: 5650.0860901
talisman_of_bloodlust: 5623.19498234
heroic_bad_juju: 5611.85198751
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm: 5495.40385153
heroic_terror_in_the_mists: 5128.60270916
lfr_rune_of_re_origination: 4968.73744469
bad_juju: 4966.35237112
bottle_of_infinite_stars: 4946.10949944
renatakis_soul_charm: 4863.26220753
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust: 4668.53844031
relic_of_xuen: 4587.97646653
terror_in_the_mists: 4447.06157551
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 4377.50663215
lfr_bad_juju: 4119.4069302
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm: 4033.822409
lfr_terror_in_the_mists: 3940.96465746
hawkmasters_talon: 3889.23278196
jade_bandit_figurine: 3889.23278196
searing_words: 3527.47263915
windswept_pages: 3299.72974283
flashing_steel_talisman: 2846.64259977

Sub :
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust: 8289.80698527 (6.55%)
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 7520.01222189 (5.94%)
heroic_bad_juju: 7429.65319778 (5.87%)
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 7355.92988352
talisman_of_bloodlust: 7340.12337636 (5.80%)
heroic_rune_of_re_origination: 7322.03198365 (5.79%)
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm: 7204.30417804 (5.70%)
rune_of_re_origination: 6628.82233081 (5.24%)
bad_juju: 6574.42826037 (5.20%)
relic_of_xuen: 6454.85365535 (5.10%)
heroic_terror_in_the_mists: 6389.7041056 (5.05%)
bottle_of_infinite_stars: 6388.71763105 (5.05%)
renatakis_soul_charm: 6374.9625015 (5.04%)
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust: 6094.50851528 (4.82%)
lfr_rune_of_re_origination: 5720.35283841 (4.52%)
terror_in_the_mists: 5662.16468148 (4.48%)
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars: 5653.82790362 (4.47%)
lfr_bad_juju: 5452.36422185 (4.31%)
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm: 5286.82897609 (4.18%)
lfr_terror_in_the_mists: 5017.98275249 (3.97%)

Maybe we can sticky this or something because there are so many questions and threads about trinkets it is tiresome.

Here is the post: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130892-...1/#post2263256. I take no credit whatsoever.

All the RPPM agi tinkets got buffed a bit. That should value them a bit higher.

[Ryme]

Has any data relating to how the RPPM trinkets have been changed been released? Also, I still don't trust anything released by Shadowcraft yet, I'm still pretty sure they're overestimating RoRO and undervaluing RSC.

EDIT: For Shadowcraft and RPPM trinkets, is anyone able to show me how they're modelling them? I'm poor with understanding the source code so any help there would be hugely appreciated.

EDIT 2: Derp I can't read main page.

[Coldkil]

I'm going to sticky this to merge all the trinket discussions in one thread. Also changing the title to a more general one.

[Ryme]

Hey guys I understand all of this - that shado-pan offensive will be a main trinket until and perhaps through H ToT and that H Bottle is better than normal juju.
I was wondering if normal bad juju is better than relugar bottle (2/2 upgrade - 497 ilvl). I did not get lucky enough to recieve a heroic bottle (I will still be trying to) yet and am wondering if i can replace it (2/2) with bad juju and if it would be worth it? My toon is Bloodbladex on Zul'jin. I will VERY soon be getting the valor trink to replace the other darkmoon fair trinket so dont worry about that.

I'd wait until all the details about how the RPPM trinkets have changed come out, but previously, I had Regular Bottle (2/2) almost exactly on par with regular JuJu.

If these hold true (as I'm favouring good fortune in my spreadsheet for RPPM trinkets), it will come down to whether you prefer procs or static stats, bottle has a better proc (due to the rate it fires) but Juju has better static stats.

My recommendation (REMEMBER: I would still wait for full maths of the new RPPM changes to surface) would be to stick with your double upgraded bottle.

[fierydemise]

Has any data relating to how the RPPM trinkets have been changed been released? Also, I still don't trust anything released by Shadowcraft yet, I'm still pretty sure they're overestimating RoRO and undervaluing RSC.

EDIT: For Shadowcraft and RPPM trinkets, is anyone able to show me how they're modelling them? I'm poor with understanding the source code so any help there would be hugely appreciated.

EDIT 2: Derp I can't read main page.

Shadowcraft's trinket handling basically works as follows. In the determine_stats method interate over all active proces calling the set_uptime method. This method computes procs per second with the get_procs_per_second method, and uses the set_uptime_for_ramping_proc method if the procs/second >1. All the trinket handling helper functions are in the objects/procs file and the actual trinket data is in object/proc_data. Things are a bit more complex for Rune because there are a couple other methods to determine what stat its procing.

Shadowcraft does substantially overvalue Rune, a caveat which I made sure to add when I generated and posted the above the list but always seems to be removed when it gets linked around.

EDIT: Looks like there was an uncorrected bug in my local version of proc_data that had heroic RSC (not normal or lfr) as a smaller proc then it should have been. I still see it behind heroic bottle (no upgrade) but barely.

Rerunning for assassination at 15% haste (also adding in the 10% proc chance increase for Talisman, RSC, Juju and Rune) gives the following list.

heroic_rune_of_re_origination:             8385.64527171
rune_of_re_origination:                    7859.65049949
lfr_rune_of_re_origination:                7170.32050853
heroic_talisman_of_bloodlust:              6744.99191117
heroic_bad_juju:                           6497.89812683
heroic_renatakis_soul_charm:               6278.48302869
heroic_bottle_of_infinite_stars:           6051.6123688
talisman_of_bloodlust:                     5971.88602041
vicious_talisman_of_the_shado-pan_assault: 5880.67566638
bad_juju:                                  5749.98433107
renatakis_soul_charm:                      5555.85884899
heroic_terror_in_the_mists:                5268.2319352
bottle_of_infinite_stars:                  5149.39092107
lfr_talisman_of_bloodlust:                 4957.92462984
lfr_bad_juju:                              4768.82225482
relic_of_xuen:                             4696.84150601
lfr_renatakis_soul_charm:                  4607.82664988
terror_in_the_mists:                       4564.50298282
lfr_bottle_of_infinite_stars:              4557.68154986
lfr_terror_in_the_mists:                   4045.03575646
hawkmasters_talon:                         3965.33713008
jade_bandit_figurine:                      3965.33713008
searing_words:                             3657.33973453
windswept_pages:                           3377.91008085
flashing_steel_talisman:                   2938.18701435

Trinkets are presented in their base form (no TF, no upgrades) with reforges of static stats assumed. Rune is substantially overvalued, its no better then heroic bottle.

[Ryme]

Given all the information we have currently, I'd happily concur with that list (the odd item swapped places here and there, but nothing major).

Note however: I still don't enjoy the way that I am modelling RPPM trinkets (it's essentially a big approximation based on expected values), thanks for the pointers fiery, I'll try and delve further into shadowcraft's source code and see if they're doing things better.

For further reading, and some fairly advanced calculus on the matter:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...gn-proposition
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...inket-Analysis

If you are interested, be sure to read page two of that second thread where some updated maths comes into play.

[fierydemise]

I'll tell you now they aren't. Shadowcraft is also doing a big approximation based on expected proc intervals. In general I'm not sure if Shadowcraft can go much further on its rppm modeling, at least not without tanking performance (which as we say last week can be a major bottleneck). The variance issues noted in those two threads are interesting and important but are fundamentally transient effects that Shadowcraft can't easily capture.