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  1. #1141
    Quote Originally Posted by Raptoos View Post
    No it is not.

    There are content needing a gear - raids. You don't belong to those people, because it's about an alt.

    There are content not needing a good gear, like challenge modes or hunting rares over all Pandaria

    And there are content needed no gear at all, like professions, battle pets.

    You see only first option, like it was mandatory. This game have many faces. If you don't want to gear up, do anything else.
    There are other content needing gear, like Brawler's guild.

    And again, MMORPG is about progressing you character, and even Blizzard already admitted that aprt of that is getting better gear.

  2. #1142
    This is just another reason Challenge Modes are junk. With no new dungeons there is no reason to do them for the rest of an expansion. It is pretty sad when so many have completely beaten a feature of the game before the first tier/season is over and are given nothing to fill it's void.
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  3. #1143
    I think the no-new-dungeons is creating so much controversy, since a lot of people haven't realized the 'new direction' the game is going yet, and this is a huge wake up call to those players.

    The current gear up method once you reach 90 is just terrible, especially for many of us who enjoyed doing 5 mans with friends or guildies in the past to gear up or just simply to have a good time. Do I understand the reasoning why they aren't making new dungeons? Of course, but I don't agree with the reasoning at all, or even how Blizzard reached the state of the gear tiers we have now. Just like I don't agree with all of the daily nonsense we have.

    What it really comes down to is that many of us aren't enjoying the 'new direction' of the game. Oh there's stuff to do all right, but many of us aren't finding it enjoyable. If you aren't enjoying the game and don't hate yourself, I recommend you just cancel your sub. I'm glad I did a few months ago, and I wish I had done so sooner.

  4. #1144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Duval View Post
    I think the no-new-dungeons is creating so much controversy, since a lot of people haven't realized the 'new direction' the game is going yet, and this is a huge wake up call to those players.

    The current gear up method once you reach 90 is just terrible, especially for many of us who enjoyed doing 5 mans with friends or guildies in the past to gear up or just simply to have a good time. Do I understand the reasoning why they aren't making new dungeons? Of course, but I don't agree with the reasoning at all, or even how Blizzard reached the state of the gear tiers we have now. Just like I don't agree with all of the daily nonsense we have.

    What it really comes down to is that many of us aren't enjoying the 'new direction' of the game. Oh there's stuff to do all right, but many of us aren't finding it enjoyable. If you aren't enjoying the game and don't hate yourself, I recommend you just cancel your sub. I'm glad I did a few months ago, and I wish I had done so sooner.
    We understand completely that the game is having a new direction, we just don't want that direction in the game anymore, it's bad, and it changes the core we were used to for 8 friggin years, a new direction shouldn't come out after the player base got their mind set fixated on the old direction which was the very core of the game for 8 years.

  5. #1145
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    On one hand I understand their decision. 5 mans were meant (and most people treated them) for groups of players to just get together and do something minor for story and a little gear. Scenarios are pretty much the same except that there's less role requirements, meaning it's faster for a majority of their player-base to find a group for their small group content.

    As someone who loves the healing role in MMOs, I'm a bit disappointed. GW is a series where you can group up with anyone and do any role well enough to make it through a lot of the group content and people love it. I'm not one of those people. I like that members in the trinity system depend on one another for things they themselves cannot do. It creates stronger connections then when everyone's playing like a single player game, together.

  6. #1146
    Quote Originally Posted by jimlow View Post
    Second, your experience now in LFR will in no way be the same 6 months from now. You can see it now on realms. The amount of people doing the first tier is already dropping as more people stop using LFR for MSV/HOF/and TOS and start running TOT. Que times for all classes are increasing and will continue to increase as more of TOT gets released to LFR. Now flash forward 6 months and we have yet another tier with the SoO. How long do you think your que time is gonna be for MSV/HOF/ToES then? Its going to be abysmal and even after you wait over an hour in a que you will have to pray you get a group that can complete it and then you still have to hope the dice gods are on your side and you actually get a piece.
    "Que" times don't work that way.

    If 2/25 players wanted to tank, 6/25 players wanted to heal, and 17/25 players wanted to DPS, then everybody would have sub one minute queUEs.

    However, 4/25 players want to tank, 2/25 players want to heal, and 19/25 players want to DPS.

    So because no one wants to heal, DPS sit around waiting for healers. Because too many players want to tank, tanks sit around in general.

    My most played characters heal, so LFR is fine.

  7. #1147
    Dungeons and raids are everything to this game. They are the only parts of the game that offer some sort of challenge. There would be no need for roles if not for dungeons and raids. That's where the true gameplay lies. Quests, and to a lesser extent scenarios, can be done with one skill bound to your bars. Why so much energy is now being directed towards them is beyond me. It really does seem like Blizzard is fetching ideas from upper level executives. "Hey, my kid wiped in Throne of the Tides, can you not put that stuff in the next game plz?"

  8. #1148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incredibale View Post
    Dungeons and raids are everything to this game. They are the only parts of the game that offer some sort of challenge. There would be no need for roles if not for dungeons and raids. That's where the true gameplay lies. Quests, and to a lesser extent scenarios, can be done with one skill bound to your bars. Why so much energy is now being directed towards them is beyond me. It really does seem like Blizzard is fetching ideas from upper level executives. "Hey, my kid wiped in Throne of the Tides, can you not put that stuff in the next game plz?"
    Blizzard are becoming lazier each expansion.

    There's your answer.

  9. #1149
    Quote Originally Posted by CrossNgen View Post
    Blizzard are becoming lazier each expansion.
    There's your answer.
    Oh, come on. It is totally not Blizzard's fault.
    Blizzard made a good, hard and challenging dungeons in the start of Cata, and what they get? A shitstorm with sub losses because it looks like people don't want to CC and challenge play, they want to storm in pack of mobs, press aoe skills and get phat lootz.
    Blizzard made a good and easy dungeons in the end of Cata, and what they get? A shitstorm because it looks like that people suddenly don't want easy peasy aoe filled dungeons with phat loots, they suddenly want challenge now, they find easy boring and don't want to do boring stuff.
    Blizzard made easy peasy dungeons AND challenge modes in MoP, and what they get? A shitstorm, oh yea. Suddenly those who are the core players for easy peasy dungeons want challenge modes and its sets, but are enable to have them because of lack of skill to get; and players who have the skill for challenge modes are bored of the stuff just as they are bored in Brawlers guild and all other "hard" stuff.
    So it is a very logic decision just not to do dungeons at all, looks like noone likes them anyway, no difference how hard or easy they are.
    So, whenever it comes to QQ - cry more, on every topic here and there, and in a few years all you'll have in wow will be dailies and nothing else.

  10. #1150
    Blizzard made a good, hard and challenging dungeons in the start of Cata, and what they get? A shitstorm with sub losses because it looks like people don't want to CC and challenge play, they want to storm in pack of mobs, press aoe skills and get phat lootz... those who are the core players for easy peasy dungeons want challenge modes and its sets, but are enable to have them because of lack of skill to get
    That's because you can use CC all you want in CMs but the only way to get gold is to, as you say, storm in and mash your AoE skills. You can't get gold if your spec has shitty AoE and you'll have a really hard time as melee in any case.
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  11. #1151
    If they could keep adding heroic dungeons as a slower but more reliable way to gear up next to LFR it would be great. It's how it worked in tbc and wotlk and it's how it was successful. Why they ever moved away from the formula I have no clue.

    First tier of heroic dungeons provides emblems/badges that can be used on ilvl 476-489 gear.
    Second tier of heroic dungeons provides emblems/badges that be used on ilvl 489-504 gear.
    Final bosses of heroic dungeons drop gear equivalent to the badge rewards from that tier.
    Challenge modes provide gear equivalent to normal mode raids.

    Voila, I just solved the entire issue of gearing up, retardedness of LFR, ACTUAL CHOICES in gear progression in under a minute. And with very little extra work to go with it ESPECIALLY if they stop forcing dailies/scenarios at the expense of 5-mans.

    And to top it all off I gave players an incentive to actually become better at the game.
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  12. #1152
    You have to look at it from Blizz's perspective:

    They can either make unique 5 mans that take extra development time to create fights, art, gear, lore, etc that are more accessible. Not to mention you could run them more often, and with friends exclusively, gearing you up faster and potentially unsub quicker.

    Or they could copy/paste a raid instance where mechanics are nerfed into the ground, you know nobody (or close to it) in the raid, you have less chances at gear, and have a lower droprate chance as well. This slows the gearing process and potentially increases the likelyhood for players to stay subbed.

    If Blizz wants to forget it's 8 year 5-man dungeon model in MoP for a chance to cut down on development and potentially make more money, why not?

    IMO: The new 90 gearing progression is such a poor decision I can't even...
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    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  13. #1153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Duval View Post
    I think the no-new-dungeons is creating so much controversy, since a lot of people haven't realized the 'new direction' the game is going yet, and this is a huge wake up call to those players.

    The current gear up method once you reach 90 is just terrible, especially for many of us who enjoyed doing 5 mans with friends or guildies in the past to gear up or just simply to have a good time. Do I understand the reasoning why they aren't making new dungeons? Of course, but I don't agree with the reasoning at all, or even how Blizzard reached the state of the gear tiers we have now. Just like I don't agree with all of the daily nonsense we have.

    What it really comes down to is that many of us aren't enjoying the 'new direction' of the game. Oh there's stuff to do all right, but many of us aren't finding it enjoyable. If you aren't enjoying the game and don't hate yourself, I recommend you just cancel your sub. I'm glad I did a few months ago, and I wish I had done so sooner.
    Haven't done so yet, but I agree entirely with you on not enjoying this "new direction" at all, so that's probably the way it goes for me too.

    5-man dungeons / Heroics was a HUGE part of the appeal of the game to me, with that gone, I find myself asking what actually remains for me. Pvp has never really been my thing. I abhor the LFR scene. Daily rep grinds holds even less appeal. Currently, 5-man heroics, friends and a spot of roleplaying keeps me in the game, and with 5-man heroics gone...I'm just not sure if it's worth it anymore.

  14. #1154
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    You have to look at it from Blizz's perspective:

    They can either make unique 5 mans that take extra development time to create fights, art, gear, lore, etc that are more accessible. Not to mention you could run them more often, and with friends exclusively, gearing you up faster and potentially unsub quicker.

    Or they could copy/paste a raid instance where mechanics are nerfed into the ground, you know nobody (or close to it) in the raid, you have less chances at gear, and have a lower droprate chance as well. This slows the gearing process and potentially increases the likelyhood for players to stay subbed.

    If Blizz wants to forget it's 8 year 5-man dungeon model in MoP for a chance to cut down on development and potentially make more money, why not?

    IMO: The new 90 gearing progression is such a poor decision I can't even...
    Well- this is how things are gonna be. Obviously BLizzard is not realising the importance of good 5 mans to keep the co-op in this game.

    Secondly - Do not forget that they added challenge modes that means they need to put much more effort into those dungeons cause 1% might do those challenges.

    I for one is not coming back to MOP cause there are so many bad decisions being made. Can't even see me buying another expansion considering some of the changes. The game is slipping away with every new thing Blizzard adds.

    If only we had good dungeons in GW2... Cause there is obvious a market now for a good strong 4-6 man dungeon game atm. Maybe SWTOR ?

  15. #1155
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    That's because you can use CC all you want in CMs but the only way to get gold is to, as you say, storm in and mash your AoE skills. You can't get gold if your spec has shitty AoE and you'll have a really hard time as melee in any case.
    Well yes, but in fact there is only one skill that you need to conquer CMG - BL/Hero, which is plain stupid design. In fact, we had to gear shammy alt of our Hpala just to start getting gold runs. And then, we had to gear another dd's shammy alt, so our Hpala could have her Transmog set also. I think it would be quite nice of Blizz if BL/Hero was forbidden to use in CMs and all gold runs were balanced not around pressing the magic +30% dps button.
    Anyway, back to the topic. The main idea of my message was not in CMG, but in us, players, destroying wow by mere our hands. I think, when the community started dividing itself into elitists and baddies, wow start dying. Remember that good old times of BC? We had a lot of specs that were totally bad for raids - Rets, cats, arms war, etc etc. Yet in that times our raid anyway had them playing in our ranks. That was good old "bring player, not the class". Nowadays the more content we have, the more divided the community gets, the more that good old statement just isn't working. You have to play Destro, you have to bring Mage, you can't even progress without Disc. That is what we get for stopping actual playing and having fun and starting to roll on best numbers and effectiveness. And Blizz, as every other effective company, tries to give its customers what they want.

  16. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    Or they could copy/paste a raid instance where mechanics are nerfed into the ground, you know nobody (or close to it) in the raid, you have less chances at gear, and have a lower droprate chance as well. This slows the gearing process and potentially increases the likelyhood for players to stay subbed.
    Potentially or not, it has had the effect of making me reconsidering my subscription. That's only happened once before in over seven years of playtime, and I cannot believe that I am the only one sufficiently annoyed by this decision to consider unsubscribing, something that I never did when I geared up more quickly in TBC, Wrath and Cata...

  17. #1157
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    Haven't done so yet, but I agree entirely with you on not enjoying this "new direction" at all, so that's probably the way it goes for me too.

    5-man dungeons / Heroics was a HUGE part of the appeal of the game to me, with that gone, I find myself asking what actually remains for me. Pvp has never really been my thing. I abhor the LFR scene. Daily rep grinds holds even less appeal. Currently, 5-man heroics, friends and a spot of roleplaying keeps me in the game, and with 5-man heroics gone...I'm just not sure if it's worth it anymore.
    Yes - I think BLizzard is not quite getting it that so many ppl that liked 5 mans simply hate LFR. Well... tbh... everyone probably hates LFR if not for the loot.

  18. #1158
    something ate my post, see blow
    Last edited by Incredibale; 2013-03-13 at 11:08 PM. Reason: do it

  19. #1159
    People and Blizz fall back on the difficulty excuse for the sub losses. I'm not buying it. There are too many other things that could've done it:

    + 1-60 content being ransacked and "streamlined" (read: dumb down, pop-cultured, linear) when there was no demand for it

    + Noncontinuous leveling zones which are traveled to via portals in faction capitals (too gamey, might as well have a zone select text menu)

    + 5 levels instead of 10. Does not feel like 10 levels of content squished into 5

    + First expansion with only one max level zone

    + Rehashing of content

    + Last two raid tiers were limited in content with DS being the lowest quality raid of all time

    + Linear questing from 80 onward

    + Neutered Dalaran with no similar hub replacing it, which means you will hardly ever see the other faction outside of launch window and pvp servers

    + Painful caged starting zones for goblins and worgen

    + Silly antagonists (twilight, twilight everywhere), there is only one threat in the expansion - old gods. Previous expansions and vanilla had multiple antagonists

    + Phasing, phasing everywhere

    + Stat inflation completely out of line with previous expansions, can't do quests in Hyjal/Vash before 80, an unfortunate first

    + Unreasonable ilvl requirements for cata dungeon queuing. Have to blow gold on AH or go through half of Hyjal to get into BRC or TotT. Getting into the lvl 85 instance trio requires AH investment or going halfway through Twilight Highlands

    + Incentives for 25 man are gone, shared lockouts

    + New BGs were old BGs with a new coat of paint

    + Only 3 raiding tiers. A first for WoW. BC had 4, LK had 4 (not counting RS), Vanilla had 5 if you count ZG.

    + Scrapped Abyssal Maw and WoTA raids. Well of Eternity could have been glorious as a raid.

    With all these problems I don't see hard dungeons being the culprit, whatever Blizz might tell you.

  20. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Oh, come on. It is totally not Blizzard's fault.
    Blizzard made a good, hard and challenging dungeons in the start of Cata, and what they get? A shitstorm with sub losses because it looks like people don't want to CC and challenge play, they want to storm in pack of mobs, press aoe skills and get phat lootz.
    It is absolutely Blizzard's fault. The dungeons at the start of Cata were not "good, hard, and challenging". They may have been hard, particularly for undergeared toons right at release, and/or players who had only experienced Wrath heroics with ICC-5man gear, but that was it. Re-introducing CC does not equal challenging. The only "challenge" was whether LFD fed you players who remembered how to play their class from BC. If it didn't, and you didn't have a very good healer, then the Cata-start instances would be long and miserable. If it did, then they were merely miserably long. A dungeon where the hardest fight is not the boss, but fighting boredom as you proceed down a single very long hallway filled with endless waves of trash packs isn't good or challenging, just tiresome.


    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Blizzard made a good and easy dungeons in the end of Cata, and what they get? A shitstorm because it looks like that people suddenly don't want easy peasy aoe filled dungeons with phat loots, they suddenly want challenge now, they find easy boring and don't want to do boring stuff.
    Blizzard made easy peasy dungeons AND challenge modes in MoP, and what they get? A shitstorm, oh yea. Suddenly those who are the core players for easy peasy dungeons want challenge modes and its sets, but are enable to have them because of lack of skill to get; and players who have the skill for challenge modes are bored of the stuff just as they are bored in Brawlers guild and all other "hard" stuff.
    While they were definitely "easy" the three end-cata instances certainly weren't "good". The End Time was three recycled rooms (out of a possible five) that you teleport between, before casually wrapping up a plot-arc that had been around since BC. The Hour of Twilight was again three completely recycled settings, except this time you ride between them. The Well of Eternity was the only one with decent background, and that was because it was originally supposed to be a raid before Blizz gave up and turned it into a 5-man. All three were laughably short, lacked complexity, and were so 'easy' they were basically pointless. Blizz could have just had you press a button and then delivered random loot in the mail an hour later - it would have been just as challenging.

    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    So it is a very logic decision just not to do dungeons at all, looks like noone likes them anyway, no difference how hard or easy they are.
    So, whenever it comes to QQ - cry more, on every topic here and there, and in a few years all you'll have in wow will be dailies and nothing else.
    In other words, Blizz is doing to dungeons what they already did to talent trees: spend an expansion or two doing an exceptionally lousy job implementing them, then claim, "OMG, no one likes dungeons anymore, guess we'd better get rid of them". They gave us dull, uncomplicated, hallways full of a dull, unexciting selection of mobs, on top of poor choices in how to implement gearing up and it's our fault we didn't like the dungeons.

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