Racism, homophobia and WoW players.

[Maxilian]

@Jediguy, i understand that some of Bridgetjones were not the best answers but you know that is actually kind of hurtful when you start comparing something harmfull to the society to something that's not harmfull (that may be good for the society), also is true, my opinion or anyone opinion is not more important or relevant that anyone else, as you said you find that the LGBT marriages are inmoral and you don't understand why would it be moral, is the same thing for us, we don't understand how can you say that the LGBT marriages are inmorals, that don't have sense to us, also you have to understand that when people say that the LGBT marriages are inmoral is like saying that "What you are doing is wrong because is inmoral" (I'm not saying that's what you mean, but that's what many people understand) so many people find that as an insult, so please be patient, if you want to hear reason why is the LBGT moral or inmoral try to talk with some people about it, and ask them in a more open way, "Why do you think X is right/wrong?" that may give you our reason why we want to get marriage or give you more base to go against our marriage...

P.D: Sorry, English is not my main language, also i don't want to insult you or anything like that, but i want you to understand why sometimes we (menber of the LGBT) at like the way we do..., have a nice day

[Simulacrum]

When they say they want to have sex with each other they mean it ironically OP. Which is still mocking homosexuals for thier handicap which is so mean, so cruel. At the same time, stereotypes aren't racist at all. Racism is discriminating against someone in some way because of those stereotypes. That one is a go back to school issue on your end.

You come out asserting that homosexuals are handicapped, then complain that the people who mock you for thinking like that are "so mean, so cruel"?

Can't even make these things up...

[noo]

What I find upsetting is that LGBT people are clearly in need of mental health assistance, then they come storming in everywhere demanding recognition / acceptance. It's hard enough for most people to just tolerate it (which they do) without calling them crazy.

For instance a biological imperative is something which appies to all living beings, if you fail a biological imperative you are classified as maladaptive (mentally unwell). Reproduction is one of those biological imperatives which LGBT fail. But it goes beyond that, LGBT boys often think they're girls, LGBT girls often think they're boys... some thing they're polysexual unicorns.

So the point is, there is a difference between toleration, and bending over for people who are ill... which society shouldn't do and you can't force an individual to do.

Calling any group of people "mentally ill" is not acceptable

[Vaelorian]

I'm from a EU server (english) and only seen 2 incidents concerning RACISM in 8 years in WoW. Did I see discriminative remarks? Oh yes a lot more then the racism ones. Usually concerning "retard/downsyndrome-like remarks".

In terms of homophobia, sure you get a couple of giggles in /w or /gchat about it. But not much more then that if any.

Seems I am on a pretty good server then.

[noo]

You come out asserting that homosexuals are handicapped, then complain that the people who mock you for thinking like that are "so mean, so cruel"?

Can't even make these things up...

I was being ironic

[Shammyspice]

During Cataclysm, I encountered a number of raiding guilds that I ended up having to leave because too many of them spouted off "ni**er" and "fa**ot" all the live long day.
It got to be so excessive, I would have to take my headset off just to get away from it. I'm not some uppity church bitch, but holy cow was it ridiculous. I've never heard such gratuitous use of those words.

They used it basically anytime they wanted to insult each other, which was often. Now, up until Cataclysm, I had never really encountered ANY players like this, so it caught me off guard/by surprise and disturbed me quite a bit. Now, I understand a bunch of dudes calling each other gay and joking around can be acceptable in the gaming world, but to say the "N" word 40+ times during a raid session, I don't get that at all.

I left a guild over on Twisting Nether and a member came to talk to me about it. He pretty much told me that it was clear they were a "mature" raiding guild and I should have expected that sort of language when I applied. Now, where I come from, mature language does mean swearing and other language that is probably unsuitable for anyone under 14/15 years old, but I don't think racist/homophobic slurs fit the category of "mature language." To me it just sounds ugly and makes the people who use it to such excess sound like uneducated high school dropouts.

Luckily, I finally found a non-racist/homophobic raiding guild to call home this expansion. The server I found doesn't spam trade with it very often, if at all.
So I guess the solution is to try and find a decent server with decent players who aren't racist idiots. Good luck & god speed lol.

[Maxilian]

What I find upsetting is that LGBT people are clearly in need of mental health assistance, then they come storming in everywhere demanding recognition / acceptance. It's hard enough for most people to just tolerate it (which they do) without calling them crazy.

For instance a biological imperative is something which appies to all living beings, if you fail a biological imperative you are classified as maladaptive (mentally unwell). Reproduction is one of those biological imperatives which LGBT fail. But it goes beyond that, LGBT boys often think they're girls, LGBT girls often think they're boys... some thing they're polysexual unicorns.

So the point is, there is a difference between toleration, and bending over for people who are ill... which society shouldn't do and you can't force an individual to do.

I'm sorry noo, but could you try not to insult anyone, also remenber that is true that homosexuals were considered to be mentally ill but now they are not considered that, so i don't think you should go against something that was "proved", cause that will make people ignore or just considere that your answer is silly (or something like that) by many people.

[Tharkkun]

There's really no room for sexuality in a video game honestly. Taking it beyond male or female is about the furthest they need to go. When we start to take it further we're crossing the lines of entertainment in a video game. It's the parents job to educate their children on what's out there and how to approach the issues. It doesn't need to thrown in their face by Blizzard.

EA/Bioware started adding it to their games for shock factor. If people think otherwise they are kidding themselves because it wasn't for equality. Then they failed to continue the practice in SWTOR and look at the backlash? Then they designed a gay/lesbian only planet which is more hypocritical. They should have left it alone.

[Vokal]

Its the Internet.

/thread

Simple explanation that says so much.

[Tharkkun]

What I find upsetting is that LGBT people are clearly in need of mental health assistance, then they come storming in everywhere demanding recognition / acceptance. It's hard enough for most people to just tolerate it (which they do) without calling them crazy.

For instance a biological imperative is something which appies to all living beings, if you fail a biological imperative you are classified as maladaptive (mentally unwell). Reproduction is one of those biological imperatives which LGBT fail. But it goes beyond that, LGBT boys often think they're girls, LGBT girls often think they're boys... some thing they're polysexual unicorns.

So the point is, there is a difference between toleration, and bending over for people who are ill... which society shouldn't do and you can't force an individual to do.

If they are ill then there should be a shot to cure it right? There's no cure for genetics except well to shoot them. Rather than kill the intolerant assholes, I'd rather give you the gift of life. An autistic girl and homosexual son. Let's see how intolerant you are when they come from your own DNA.

[SirMeo]

False analogy, as writing left handed is not against the moral law.

You might want to reconsider, many left-handed people are still forced to learn to use their non-dominant hand because it's not right to use their left hand. In some cultures left-handedness was/is a sign of uncleanliness (coming from old sanitary customs) and has been associated with Satan worship, and the word "sinister" is even directly linked to mean left-handed. so yeah

Now, the thing is, I don't really agree with Bridgetjones, but the thing is you really don't know what you're talking about. I do agree with you that simply stating "you're a homophobe i will never listen anything you say" has no place in conversation (that is not a conversation if you are not listening to other people anyway!) and I do agree there is a portion of people who will use that simpy to not listen and think they've "won", but... really, you not liking being called homophobic is just not the same, especially if you get this after youv'e said you don't "agree with homosexuality" ...

Moreover the term homophobia does not only mean "irrational fear of homosexuals/homosexuality" but also encompasses various other negative views on homosexuality. I've seen some people try use other words because, well, it is misleading, but none have caught on. Please be aware of the context wherein the word is used; it might not only mean people who have an actual phobia.


I'm not touching noo's message at all, it's been a while since I've seen such ignorant stuff being spewed on so freely (if you were sarcastic or something, then I apologize though!) and i just no

[Deleted]

I would like to have a gay character in WoW but i agree that's not really something important, also you know is actually irrelevant if Thrall or/and Varian are heterosexual or homosexual, even if you want their kids to play some role in the future, just look how many gay people have kids (many)...

How does that whole thing with descendants to the throne work with adopted kids? Not that I have anything against homosexuality, but having a man and woman and their actual kids is much more natural and simple.

[TJ]

I would say it's the opposite. I've never personally experienced what you're describing. But this is the internet after all, anonymity is the cause of most insults and arguments.

[Jediguy]

@Jediguy, i understand that some of Bridgetjones were not the best answers but you know that is actually kind of hurtful when you start comparing something harmfull to the society to something that's not harmfull (that may be good for the society)

All analogies have their limitations. I have suggested previously that LGBTQ behavior is not harmful in the same way that lying or acting out on a bad temper is harmful, but that is not the measure of a moral act. Morality is concerned more than just whether or not a set of behavior causes harm. As C.S. Lewis wrote, “I am not angry-except perhaps for a moment before I come to my senses-with a man who trips me up by accident; I am angry with a man who tries to trip me up even if he does not succeed. Yet the first has hurt me and the second has not.” Likewise, killing someone in self-defense is harmful, but most people would not condemn it as immoral, even though harm was done. Whether or not something is harmful may play a role in moral judgment, but is not the whole picture. Morality is a measure of how close our behavior is in sync with the ideal (which I submit is God’s will), regardless of whether or not it is harmful.

as you said you find that the LGBT marriages are inmoral and you don't understand why would it be moral, is the same thing for us, we don't understand how can you say that the LGBT marriages are inmorals, that don't have sense to us

The reason, I suspect, is because we are appealing to different criteria as to what makes an act moral or immoral. If you base morality entirely on whether or not something causes harm, then as long as LGBTQ behavior causes no harm, there is no reason to label it as immoral. If, however, morality is based on something more than whether or not something causes harm, such as behaving as intended by a higher standard that exists apart from us, then it very well may be that the LGBTQ set of behavior is immoral.

also you have to understand that when people say that the LGBT marriages are inmoral is like saying that "What you are doing is wrong because is inmoral" (I'm not saying that's what you mean, but that's what many people understand) so many people find that as an insult

No one ever likes to be told they’re wrong; that much is clear. And some people may accuse others of wrongdoing in a hateful manner, but that does not mean that standing up for what is right is inherently arrogant or spiteful. The only reason we should ever look down on someone is if we want to help them up and would want them to do the same for us.

so please be patient, if you want to hear reason why is the LBGT moral or inmoral try to talk with some people about it, and ask them in a more open way, "Why do you think X is right/wrong?" that may give you our reason why we want to get marriage or give you more base to go against our marriage...

Of course, but each side must understand that name-calling (e.g. “fag” or “homophobe”) is counterproductive to civil dialogue and generates only resentment and animosity between people who disagree.

P.D: Sorry, English is not my main language, also i don't want to insult you or anything like that, but i want you to understand why sometimes we (menber of the LGBT) at like the way we do..., have a nice day

Not a problem. I suspect if I tried to post in your first language, I would not fare so well as you have done here in English.

[noo]

If they are ill then there should be a shot to cure it right? There's no cure for genetics except well to shoot them. Rather than kill the intolerant assholes, I'd rather give you the gift of life. An autistic girl and homosexual son. Let's see how intolerant you are when they come from your own DNA.

Well this could have been caused by various birth defects as well. For instance if there were any toxins introduced into the womb, nicotine or alcohol come to mind. That's all presupposing homosexuality isn't also a choice, which it can be when it's not an illness (which can be brought on by the former).

And, I never said I was intolerant, I said there is a difference between toleration and coddling a disorder (which only makes it worse).

[Skurkitty]

A lot has been said here and I can't honestly say I'll read through it all but instead will just post my two cents.

For me personally after having been active in multiple MMOs a long with online play for Xbox and Playstation etc etc the internet has come to a point where I personally feel the average person who has been around long enough should be numb to such talk. Whether it be in a serious manner or joking, the fact of the matter is just to state the very obvious. Everything shifts, including how people may view gay or racist comments. It just comes down to a context of words, and in all honesty now a days on the internet these sort of discussions have lost ALL forms of context.

They really, truly, hold no meaning anymore. Even if someone may be serious about insulting another for their race or sexual preference, the fact that it floats around so much... that person's words hold zero value from the second they think about saying it to the point that they hit enter to send it across.

[Maxilian]

All analogies have their limitations. I have suggested previously that LGBTQ behavior is not harmful in the same way that lying or acting out on a bad temper is harmful, but that is not the measure of a moral act. Morality is concerned more than just whether or not a set of behavior causes harm. As C.S. Lewis wrote, “I am not angry-except perhaps for a moment before I come to my senses-with a man who trips me up by accident; I am angry with a man who tries to trip me up even if he does not succeed. Yet the first has hurt me and the second has not.” Likewise, killing someone in self-defense is harmful, but most people would not condemn it as immoral, even though harm was done. Whether or not something is harmful may play a role in moral judgment, but is not the whole picture. Morality is a measure of how close our behavior is in sync with the ideal (which I submit is God’s will), regardless of whether or not it is harmful.

The reason, I suspect, is because we are appealing to different criteria as to what makes an act moral or immoral. If you base morality entirely on whether or not something causes harm, then as long as LGBTQ behavior causes no harm, there is no reason to label it as immoral. If, however, morality is based on something more than whether or not something causes harm, such as behaving as intended by a higher standard that exists apart from us, then it very well may be that the LGBTQ set of behavior is immoral.

:S sorry i did not mean that morality is about things that are harmfull or not, i meaned that is not a good thing to compare 2 things that don't have to do much with each other cause it may insult someone

No one ever likes to be told they’re wrong; that much is clear. And some people may accuse others of wrongdoing in a hateful manner, but that does not mean that standing up for what is right is inherently arrogant or spiteful. The only reason we should ever look down on someone is if we want to help them up and would want them to do the same for us.

Yeah i understand your point, but i just wanted you to know why some people react like that, cause for us, what some people say about homosexuality is an insult to us

Of course, but each side must understand that name-calling (e.g. “fag” or “homophobe”) is counterproductive to civil dialogue and generates only resentment and animosity between people who disagree.

I totally agree

Not a problem. I suspect if I tried to post in your first language, I would not fare so well as you have done here in English.

Thanks

[Alfryd]

Really? You want gay characters in WoW? Really? It's not World of Relationshipcraft. It's not important whether someone like Admiral Taylor loves men or women. And of course main characters like Varian and Thrall will always have to be heterosexual if you want their kids to play some role in the future.

Arthas and Jania
Kael'thalas and Jania
Kalecgos and Jania (she gets around)
Thrall and Aggra
Tyrande and Malfurion
Tyrande and Illidan
Varian and Tiffany
Alleria and Turolyn
Veressea and Rhonin
The Player if s/he plays a Goblin.

Your argument would hold weight if the franchise was not littered with blatant heterosexual relationships. No, I'm not saying Blizzard is homophobic. But the distinct lack of homosexual relationships is almost distressing, and a blatant ploy not to offend the player base of WoW. Which, let's be honest, the majority are straight men that like to call each other 'faggot', 'homo' and 'gay' in every other sentence. Ergo, not a very liberal place to be.

I'd be genuinely pleasantly surprised if an honest, decent and well written homosexual relationship occurred between two women/men to rival that of the heterosexual characters. I personally was actually surprised when Shandris expressed interest in that male night elf; got the major lesbian vibe from her...

It's not just homophobia really. The internet draws out the plebs in people for some reason. I mean, sexism rears it's ugly head in WoW too, and racism. Anything that does not conform to the majority of white & male is likely to be discriminated against in some sort of way.

Edit:

What I find upsetting is that LGBT people are clearly in need of mental health assistance, then they come storming in everywhere demanding recognition / acceptance. It's hard enough for most people to just tolerate it (which they do) without calling them crazy.

For instance a biological imperative is something which appies to all living beings, if you fail a biological imperative you are classified as maladaptive (mentally unwell). Reproduction is one of those biological imperatives which LGBT fail. But it goes beyond that, LGBT boys often think they're girls, LGBT girls often think they're boys... some thing they're polysexual unicorns.

So the point is, there is a difference between toleration, and bending over for people who are ill... which society shouldn't do and you can't force an individual to do.

Wow. Just wow.

It makes me laugh how people still hold this attitude in 2013.

[Gibbzter]

If they are ill then there should be a shot to cure it right? There's no cure for genetics except well to shoot them. Rather than kill the intolerant assholes, I'd rather give you the gift of life. An autistic girl and homosexual son. Let's see how intolerant you are when they come from your own DNA.

There's no shot that will cure a few cards missing from the deck, not sure where you're from.

[vaeevictiss]

Wow encourages racism at its core. The very principle of the game is to have players hate on people on the opposing side of something just because they can.

i have never thought of it this way until now haha. "kill him! hes an orc!" is kinda like saying "kill him! hes african!"

oh well, i guess theres the maturity side of it that knows where to separate the two. I really cant say most wow players cannot, but i can say most wow players that talk in trade/general cannot lol.

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 12:06 PM ----------

There's no shot that will cure a few cards missing from the deck, not sure where you're from.

that one whizzed over your head huh?