back after a year off - Alterac Valley Weekend.. as horde

[Delznope]

I'd strongly advise against anyone using this addon, EVEN THO it states nowhere that it's against TOS to use it. Oh and also the fact that no one has ever gotten banned for it. Oh and that it effectively removes the majority of botting players from your bg teams. OH and gives you a near perfect win ratio. YEA DONT USE IT GUYS!

Fixed that for you.

[Thetruth1400]

I would have thought no as it's such an extreme contrast but..

Could others please chime in, I just don't get it, never seen such one-sided results in the game and I have been playing since Feb 2005 aka uber vanilla.

The break down is like this;

WSG - (A)45% / (H)55%
AB - (A)44% / (H)56%
AV - (A)51% / (H)49%
EotS - (A)42% / (H)58%
SotA - (A)46% / (H)54%
IoC - (A)44% / (H)56%
TP - (A)47% / (H)53%
BoG - (A)49% / (H)51%

So no, the disparity is in the games you played, not in the battleground itself. Now looking at those numbers, some might say that it shows a Horde bias. Others might say it's due to PvP players going Horde. Even more others may say it has to do with racial abilities. Since things haven't changed, it's obvious that Blizzard either keeps AV purposely imbalanced to give Alliance something they can win, or there is no problem besides the players and their strategies.

Personally, I'm not taking a side because I don't PvP. No matter when I do it, on Alliance or Horde, it seems like I hover around the 50 / 50 mark, so that's fine with me.

[Xzan]

Hmm, on my prot pally I did 25 games, won 12 (EU Horde side). What I'd do is run right to the top, get and guard the gy, let the rest take bunkers. As soon as gy and 2 bunkers were down, I'd tank Vann and win.

In case we didn't win, there were too many defenders in Dun Baldar or fellow co-Horders were just plain retarded (taking SH gy... yea, good idea).

But the bottom line is it was 50:50 for me.

[ringpriest]

The problem is for 7 years the majority of the Horde convinced themselves they can't win AV...

I still remember when the "report as AFK" button happened, and the Horde began winning TONS - saying "HELL YEAH! We can win now cus we don't have cave botters anymore!" - when it was their constant loosing originally that made the cave botters a problem.

Eventually a few losses under their belt, and they remember stupid ideas like "map unbalances" and convince themselves they can't win.

The problem isn't map imbalances anymore... the problem is 10 horde trying to convince the other 30 that it is possible to win AV as Horde if you work together.

While Horde morale in AV is certainly a part of why they lose so much there, morale isn't the only factor. Horde can win AV, but (as others in this thread have pointed out) it basically requires them to mount a coordinated defense and offense (or a whole team of incompetent Alliance), while Alliance can win with a zerg rush and zero coordination. Perhaps Horde may have had a slight edge years ago before random NPC patrols were nerfed or removed, and their start-point was moved back, but now AV is solidly tilted towards Alliance.

-Alliance appear to have a slightly faster route to Frostwolf than Horde do to Dun Baldar.

-NPCs in Horde towers cannot shoot cappers due to tower layout (nor can Horde easily target them from outside, or even while elsewhere in the tower), while every Alliance bunker has 1 or more NPCs that need to be killed/cc'd in order to assault it, and open lines of sight to the flag.

-Ally base defense (the bridge) is superior to the Horde chokepoints at Frostwolf (which can be bypassed without too much trouble); player knockback was never intended when the BG was designed and alliance had a bridge. Also, if I remember right, characters were originally auto-dismounted when riding through the building right before FW gates, which slowed them down a little more.

-Frostwolf NPCs can be easily avoided en-route to Relief Hut and FW Towers. Dun Baldar is full of NPCs that are almost impossible to avoid aggroing, located near key points, the Aid Station in particular.

-DB Bunker archers can range on the immediate vicinity of the Aid Station. FW Tower archers cannot reach the Relief Hut area.


Don't get me wrong, I loved AV both in its old and new incarnations, but it was easily the most imbalanced BG before MoP. (From what I've read on here and elsewhere, it sounds like Silvershard has claimed that title now in favor of the Horde, though.)

[Matt0193]

While Horde morale in AV is certainly a part of why they lose so much there, morale isn't the only factor. Horde can win AV, but (as others in this thread have pointed out) it basically requires them to mount a coordinated defense and offense (or a whole team of incompetent Alliance), while Alliance can win with a zerg rush and zero coordination. Perhaps Horde may have had a slight edge years ago before random NPC patrols were nerfed or removed, and their start-point was moved back, but now AV is solidly tilted towards Alliance.

-Alliance appear to have a slightly faster route to Frostwolf than Horde do to Dun Baldar.

Yep, they have a slightly faster route. On my Paladin I've actually capped SPRH before the Alliance have capped FWRH. However, I'm usually North alone though, so I end up taking South before anyone else arrives.

-NPCs in Horde towers cannot shoot cappers due to tower layout (nor can Horde easily target them from outside, or even while elsewhere in the tower), while every Alliance bunker has 1 or more NPCs that need to be killed/cc'd in order to assault it, and open lines of sight to the flag.

Stonehearth and Dun Baldur North can both be capped without killing any Archers. South requires you killing the two most further away, I'm not sure off-hand what Icewing requires, so I'll assume it's the same as South and requires 2. It's still 4 more NPCs that need be killed than the Alliance do, but then again; the original design for AV was that you were never supposed to assault towers alone. The tower/bunker designs are poor, but the idea was that you'd defend them.

-Ally base defense (the bridge) is superior to the Horde chokepoints at Frostwolf (which can be bypassed without too much trouble); player knockback was never intended when the BG was designed and alliance had a bridge. Also, if I remember right, characters were originally auto-dismounted when riding through the building right before FW gates, which slowed them down a little more.

Indeed, there were no knockbacks in Vanilla. It''s a good example of how later changes with no major updates can greatly affect the playstyle of something that predates it.

-Frostwolf NPCs can be easily avoided en-route to Relief Hut and FW Towers. Dun Baldar is full of NPCs that are almost impossible to avoid aggroing, located near key points, the Aid Station in particular.

-DB Bunker archers can range on the immediate vicinity of the Aid Station. FW Tower archers cannot reach the Relief Hut area.

Not exactly, I've been taking SPRH before Alliance have been taking FWRH most of the weekend. The trick is not to just run straight past the Blacksmith and his fellow NPCs. And no, the Archers won't hit you taking the Flag. The only reason you would get hit there is if one of the NPCs shot at you at the very edge of their range while you were still running.

Don't get me wrong, I loved AV both in its old and new incarnations, but it was easily the most imbalanced BG before MoP. (From what I've read on here and elsewhere, it sounds like Silvershard has claimed that title now in favor of the Horde, though.)

SSM favours Horde initially as they are able to claim the two closest Carts without much issue, same as the Alliance can claim the cart closest to them without much issue (usually). The overall design favours Horde, enough so that in RBGs whichever team spawns on the Horde side usually win.

[ringpriest]

Stonehearth and Dun Baldur North can both be capped without killing any Archers. South requires you killing the two most further away, I'm not sure off-hand what Icewing requires, so I'll assume it's the same as South and requires 2. It's still 4 more NPCs that need be killed than the Alliance do, but then again; the original design for AV was that you were never supposed to assault towers alone. The tower/bunker designs are poor, but the idea was that you'd defend them.

I remember North being cappable by hiding in the window, but I thought Stonehearth had at least one archer that could target either window in range of the flag. Then again, it has been a while.

IWB only requires taking out one, if I'm remembering correctly. I know I used to sap and cap it on my rogue before hearthing back to recap the FW towers and RH, back when I was working on Battlemaster. (Maybe I was being clever and sapping one and blinding the other?)

Not exactly, I've been taking SPRH before Alliance have been taking FWRH most of the weekend. The trick is not to just run straight past the Blacksmith and his fellow NPCs. And no, the Archers won't hit you taking the Flag. The only reason you would get hit there is if one of the NPCs shot at you at the very edge of their range while you were still running.

I think it depends on where you stand. The far side of the AS flag is certainly out of range, but I'd swear that I've been repeatedly shot by the archers from South while in capping range but towards DB-S. Either way, it's still a Alliance advantage - you can have massive melees around RH without so much as a peep out of the FW guards. If you try fighting at AS, either the Alliance will hit you with range from the 'cover' of their NPCs and archers, or you can try closing and get roflstomped by the mob of NPCs that come after you.

[Thrive]

Alliance have been winning AV forever. Nothing has changed.

Eh, not always. The bridge has always been a major stronghold, but the rush tactics made it easier for the Horde towers to be taken and held by a single person easily, meaning they go down quicker. Also its easier to hide from archers. Really the name of the game is getting those towers down fast, and the Alliance has an easier time doing it.

[ringpriest]

Alliance have been winning AV forever. Nothing has changed.

They certainly haven't been winning it 'forever'. Back before the Horde start cave was moved, Horde won almost every game - at least as much as the Alliance does now. Of course, that was in the days when (at least on Emberstorm) the Horde won pretty much all the BGs, all the time.

[Peng]

If both sides rush, the Alliance is 10s ahead and ready to kill the boss with 2 towers down. Horde can only win a rush if Alliance fails.

If Horde defends Galva, it´s hard to get back in time in order to retap all four towers. Alliance can even just block the garnison and delay this fight to gain time for capping the towers.

The best way to win as Horde is to camp the bottleneck near Iceblood tower. Send some stealth classes to capture bunkers or just make trouble. Send 1 healer and 2 DDs to finish any Alli who made it through the barricade. But this requires a coordinated group. Hard to do without Preform AV-Enabler.

[CHRONICGODX]

sorry all, i botted about 20 hours of AV and AFK'd about 15 this weekend on horde. thanks for carrying me.

[Misuteri]

I geared 2 alliance toons in full Malevolent this previous AV weekend because the win ratio for me was about 11-1 in my favor. The two notable exceptions that we lost? 10 Horde defended the final boss and the clueless Alliance couldn't dislodge them. The old Open Raid strategy of letting the two mid-towers burn then filling in the choke point at IBT and farming for resources and honor kills. That was it. There was one maybe 2 rushes that Horde actually won.

The biggest problem for this BG is it's possible to burn final bosses with 2 towers up already. When tanks have 1 mil HP by the end of the expansion you'll see victories with 3 possibly 4 towers up. They never scale BG bosses once an expansion has started.

I stated numerous times to my groups, I don't know why Horde don't blacklist this map and refuse to play. I know when I gear my Horde there's no way in hell I'm going to leave this map on the random list. The map used to be just as imbalanced the other direction when the Horde cave was behind TP.