Ban DPS Metres

[Crym]

How is not having high item level gear "douchy"?

I think he meant "removing you for your lack of gear, while a douchy move, is still a valid one".

[MrHappy]

I think he meant "removing you for your lack of gear, while a douchy move, is still a valid one".

yep that's what I meant. sorry for the "lost in translation" type thing.

[Firebert]

It's defensible to a rational, considerate human being.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I'm incredibly sure that people buy WoW would rather have fun playing the game they've bought, as opposed to spending three hours in Excel spreadsheets before the community accepts them and stops blocking them from the very same content they're denied from seeing.

In the entirety of Johnny's WoW career, the only point in which he had the time necessary to learn his class is in the three hours beginning at the exact same time as the raid he wants in on.

Assuming Johnny is casual and doesn't have much time to spend in the game, I'd have a hard time convincing him to get off WoW and go play with spreadsheets for three hours of his relaxation time.

Wait wait wait. Did you seriously just say that I'm the lazy one if someone shows up for raid with no idea what he's doing? Besides the fact that most of these players won't listen to elitist ranting in order to squeeze out 2k more DPS, there simply aren't enough hours in a day for a decent player to spend his time mentoring every casual player he comes across who was spending time enjoying himself.

Yes. You are lazy. Assuming that your raiding is a guild raid (because we don't see any current content PuGs any more and that seems to be the only thing raiders care about any more), I'd expect you to help the player get better and benefit the raid more, instead of kicking him to the curb. You take the easy way out and don't care about your fellow raiders.

If your raiding is LFR, then it's for everyone to see the content (and to give raiding more value) and shouldn't be kicking anyone unless you hit an enrage timer with everyone left alive.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 07:47 PM ----------

yep that's what I meant. sorry for the "lost in translation" type thing.

Oh, in which case, I disagree. Being in LFD/LFR/a raid means you're there for gear. Kicking because you're doing the right thing (trying to gear up) doesn't seem valid at all.

[darkpower]

I don't want to carry people. Part of it is because I dislike lazy people. If you are doing *that* badly on DPS it is because you are either stupid or lazy in most cases. I'm talking anything sub 30k in a 5 man. Basically, I don't want to play with you if you're too lazy to enchant gear, reforge right, or know a rotation.

It's almost never the gears fault for bad DPS. I could be 20 item levels under people and still easily beat them. Why? I'm better.

It isn't the DPS meters fault you suck.

I'm more than willing to help people who want to- I post often on forums doing so, help people over skype, and have spent my own money to help people who have potential to get their gear fixed. But they have to be willing to improve. Bad/lazy/stupid, I'd rather kick you than carry you.

I'm pretty sure you're trolling (though if you're not, then...WOW), but I'll bite because I'm feeling generous today.

What about, then:

- People who can't do DPS because tank refuses to move out of fire.
- People who can't do DPS because tank can't hold aggro worth a damn and DPS continues to have to pop CDs or hold back to try to reduce their threat long enough to survive something (to be able to kick said tank).
- People who can DPS, but the gear just hasn't dropped yet for them yet to be able to put out the numbers you're suspecting.
- Those that are doing 29k DPS! (Oh, the HUMANITY).

You're saying you're willing to help, but then have that stereotype in mind when helping that person you think that of. Sorry, but I don't know if I'd want help from someone who already thinks I'm lazy or stupid because I'm doing something wrong but can't understand what.

[Darkfriend]

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I'm incredibly sure that people buy WoW would rather have fun playing the game they've bought, as opposed to spending three hours in Excel spreadsheets before the community accepts them and stops blocking them from the very same content they're denied from seeing.


Assuming Johnny is casual and doesn't have much time to spend in the game, I'd have a hard time convincing him to get off WoW and go play with spreadsheets for three hours of his relaxation time.


Yes. You are lazy. Assuming that your raiding is a guild raid (because we don't see any current content PuGs any more and that seems to be the only thing raiders care about any more), I'd expect you to help the player get better and benefit the raid more, instead of kicking him to the curb. You take the easy way out and don't care about your fellow raiders.

If your raiding is LFR, then it's for everyone to see the content (and to give raiding more value) and shouldn't be kicking anyone unless you hit an enrage timer with everyone left alive.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 07:47 PM ----------


Oh, in which case, I disagree. Being in LFD/LFR/a raid means you're there for gear. Kicking because you're doing the right thing (trying to gear up) doesn't seem valid at all.

You seem to think 15 minutes looking at a forum or website or talking to a friend is the same as 3 hours "looking at spreadsheets".

Essentially, if someone is bad, I don't want to play with them.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 01:50 PM ----------

I'm pretty sure you're trolling (though if you're not, then...WOW), but I'll bite because I'm feeling generous today.

What about, then:

- People who can't do DPS because tank refuses to move out of fire.
- People who can't do DPS because tank can't hold aggro worth a damn and DPS continues to have to pop CDs or hold back to try to reduce their threat long enough to survive something (to be able to kick said tank).
- People who can DPS, but the gear just hasn't dropped yet for them yet to be able to put out the numbers you're suspecting.
- Those that are doing 29k DPS! (Oh, the HUMANITY).

You're saying you're willing to help, but then have that stereotype in mind when helping that person you think that of. Sorry, but I don't know if I'd want help from someone who already thinks I'm lazy or stupid because I'm doing something wrong but can't understand what.

It's quite easy to tell when someone is bad and when someone can't do something because someone else messed up. But it boils down to if someone is bad, I don't want to play with them.

And the gear thing is an excuse. Bad's blame lack of gear when the problem is lack of skill.

Honestly, 30k was bad in DS. 30k in MOP with a 15% damage buff and plenty to AoE is inexcusable.

[Karon]

Oh, in which case, I disagree. Being in LFD/LFR/a raid means you're there for gear. Kicking because you're doing the right thing (trying to gear up) doesn't seem valid at all.

So.... AFK ing in lfr is ok because I only want the gear?

[Firebert]

You seem to think 15 minutes looking at a forum or website or talking to a friend is the same as 3 hours "looking at spreadsheets".
Essentially, if someone is bad, I don't want to play with them.

The person I was quoting suggested the three hours. Take your criticism to him.

What if you're bad?

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 08:03 PM ----------

So.... AFK ing in lfr is ok because I only want the gear?

AFKing = 0 DPS = kick.

If someone isn't AFK and are doing relatively low DPS, it's not OK to kick them because they still have some quest greens on them.

[Theodon]

Naming and shaming's not allowed.

Also, be thankful he was doing 10k and not 1k.

Yup, that was stupid of me, sorry. Doing 10k dps is almost possible on a hunter whilst letting your pet do all the damage, so you would almost have to try or be totally afk to manage less dps than that.

[BloodGutter]

AFKers do 0 DPS, so should be kicked.

Slackers shouldn't be kicked, as that is exactly asserting your epeen. People shouldn't be exempt from the game because the community require them to spend time out of the game in order to do slightly more DPS. Just because you did doesn't mean they should.

I'm sorry but if you make it to lvl 90 without grasping a basic fundamental knowledge of your spec's rotations and spells to use, then why should I bother carrying such a player? If its a DPS player they slow down the run, but what about people like tanks and healers who can potentially wipe and extend the length of an otherwise simple dungeon/LFR run?

Generally I do point out such a player's low DPS and if they give a response apologizing or explaining they're new, I offer tips for a DPS increase if I'm familiar with their spec and let them stay in the run. However if you're going to ignore me or even worse start flaming and arguing with me then I will initiate the vote kick.

At the end of the day it takes the majority of the group to kick a person and if they approve then the feature is working as intended. Asking for decent DPS isn't really asking for much for me.

[Firecrest]

I'm pretty sure that's not true. I'm incredibly sure that people buy WoW would rather have fun playing the game they've bought, as opposed to spending three hours in Excel spreadsheets before the community accepts them and stops blocking them from the very same content they're denied from seeing.

What I keep trying to explain to you, and what you keep (intentionally?) refusing to acknowledge, is that your fun is not the only thing that matters here. When your fun interrupts the fun of 24 other people, you’re in the wrong.

Assuming Johnny is casual and doesn't have much time to spend in the game, I'd have a hard time convincing him to get off WoW and go play with spreadsheets for three hours of his relaxation time.

The person I was quoting suggested the three hours. Take your criticism to him.

No one sits down and learns their class in one sitting. They learn some basics, try it out, come back, learn some more, try that out, learn some more and hone their skills until they get it right. The amount of time needed to learn enough to pull your weight is way less than three hours. It’s more along the order of 15-30 minutes. Figuring out gem, gear and stats is really simple. I gave a three hour example as an offset to the SIX HOURS of combined time wasted by not putting forth even half that in preparation.

This actually makes your point even less valid. If 3 hours is six times less than what’s need, Johnny is even more of an asshole for not putting forth the modicum of required effort.

Yes. You are lazy. Assuming that your raiding is a guild raid (because we don't see any current content PuGs any more and that seems to be the only thing raiders care about any more), I'd expect you to help the player get better and benefit the raid more, instead of kicking him to the curb. You take the easy way out and don't care about your fellow raiders.

If your raiding is LFR, then it's for everyone to see the content (and to give raiding more value) and shouldn't be kicking anyone unless you hit an enrage timer with everyone left alive..

See, I made it this far before I noticed that you were intentionally modifying my quotes with things I did not say. Before, I thought you were just wrong. Now, I see that you’re actually being malicious. You’re not worth any further discussion.

[Crym]

I'm sorry but if you make it to lvl 90 without grasping a basic fundamental knowledge of your spec's rotations and spells to use, then why should I bother carrying such a player? If its a DPS player they slow down the run, but what about people like tanks and healers who can potentially wipe and extend the length of an otherwise simple dungeon/LFR run?

You can level to 90 easily without doing anything with a group. Solo-play for most classes is significantly different from optimal group play. If a player is a jerk about learning I don't disagree, but sometimes all it takes is someone explaining a few things as you go. If everyone had the attitude of "if they didn't learn what they need to be effective on the way to 90 there's no hope" a lot of now good players would have quit a long time ago.

I realize you are saying you're teaching people unless they're rude, so that's good. However, the assumption that getting to 90 means they probably know what they're doing is dangerous.

[Chounga]

Sorry but I'm not an asshole. I just don't like playing with scrubs... fair enough? I can pull nearly 35k on a few bosses on a 88 hunter, you should be able to do more on a level 90...

[Deleted]

Performing poorly numbers wise because your gear is shit is understandable. I never call names on recount for that. I remember how INCREDIBLY SHITTY my DPS were at fresh dinged 90 lvl hunter which had 9% Crit, opposed to 40% unbuffed in DS HC gear @ 85.
I don't stand however lack of competence, not following simple instuctions or plain botting / afking.

Freshly dinged 90 doing 20k dps is one thing. But afk bot doing 3k because it cannot push the damn button on Taran Zhu (so 90% of his attacks miss), bleh ban them all.

The math disparity between fresh dinged 90 and heroic raider wanting VP will grow overtime into the expansion, because we are experiencing really steep ilvl inflation. The jumps of ilvl between tiers and gimmicks (heroic elite, thunderforged, heroic thunderforged, yadayada) are immense and if it goes at this rate I pictrue myself easily pulling 200k+ sustained DPS at the end of siege of orgrimmar heroic. I pull 100k-ish now, and i have only 503 item level without a single HOF/TES heroic item equipped. My gear is only upgraded 496s and MV heroic items. It increased by almost 100% from "baseline" 463 full blue equipment - pulling 60k on normal Feng first reset was acceptable, 70k was godly, achievable with expensive BOEs and 80k-costing DMF trinket.

It will propably end up like late dragon soul - me queueing into end time, with 4 people around 370-ilvl (myself 407 BIS) i'm doing 70% of the damage. Could duo this with healer. And it was okay, people wanting only currency speed it up for fresh players, I'm not mad at doing 70% of dmg solo as long as the rest of that party cares to try.

[Bryntrollian]

They should ban tests in school too because I'm an idiot and I don't like to study.

[Camaris]

The nice thing about meters like Recount is that you can see what abilities people are using.

Low DPS because of cruddy gear? I don't mind carrying.

Low DPS because someone's using autoattack and maybe an ability every 10-20s? /votekick

[Tziva]

How exactly does expecting a dps to out damage a tank during a single target fight automatically entitle players who do not wish to involve themselves with other players who do not meet minimum expected requirements of their class to be called "assholes" ?

You've misunderstood what I was saying. I am not calling any specific people assholes, I am saying that any abuses that arise out of DPS meters are the fault of those that abuse them, not the tool itself. Hypothetically banning DPS meters is misguided, since the source of the problem lies with the players.

Of course, I do think it's a little petty to boot someone out of a leveling dungeon that you're beating just because their DPS is behind, since those are generally the avenues by which people learn how to play correctly. But that's just me.

(and fwiw, using curse words is not against the board's rules)

[Karon]

AFKing = 0 DPS = kick.

If someone isn't AFK and are doing relatively low DPS, it's not OK to kick them because they still have some quest greens on them.

But I try to get gear, so I do the right think, thus you should not kick me.

See what I did?

Yeah... please use your brain in future arguments...

[Firebert]

I'm sorry but if you make it to lvl 90 without grasping a basic fundamental knowledge of your spec's rotations and spells to use, then why should I bother carrying such a player?

You were there once.

Also, you're only carrying if they're contributing nothing to the group. If they are, then you're just "picking up the slack" (in need for a better term).

Generally I do point out such a player's low DPS and if they give a response apologizing or explaining they're new, I offer tips for a DPS increase if I'm familiar with their spec and let them stay in the run. However if you're going to ignore me or even worse start flaming and arguing with me then I will initiate the vote kick.

I understand why you'd kick for flaming, but nothing else.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 10:15 PM ----------

What I keep trying to explain to you is that your fun is not the only thing that matters here. When your fun interrupts the fun of 24 other people, you’re in the wrong.

If Johnny's enjoying himself, and you're not enjoying yourself with Johnny's relatively low DPS, the obvious course of action is for you to teach Johnny how to improve his DPS. That way you start enjoying yourself and Johnny continues to enjoy himself.

What you're suggesting ends up with the lack of enjoyment being removed from you and placed on Johnny, which is selfish indeed.

This actually makes your point even less valid. If 3 hours is six times less than what’s need, Johnny is even more of an asshole for not putting forth the modicum of required effort.

So, now, slow people are assholes?

See, I made it this far before I noticed that you were intentionally modifying my quotes with things I did not say. Before, I thought you were just wrong. Now, I see that you’re actually being malicious. You’re not worth any further discussion.

I was just removing the exaggerations from your posts. You just seem to flame everyone doing less DPS than you, so I'm glad you don't wish to respond to me.

[Theendgamelv3]

Training dummies.

It doesn't take all that long to learn a PvE rotation. On PTR, I can completely gear up and learn a new class well enough to pull competitive DPS in under an hour.

Training dummies just sit there, they don't hurl abilities, make you move, etc. If it was as simple as doing training dummies, everyone could easily become a world class raider.

[Firebert]

But I try to get gear, so I do the right think, thus you should not kick me.

AFKing is identical to not trying, so your argument is fallacious.