Throne of Thunder - World First Heroic Thread!

[Radalek]

When did I say that? O.o

EDIT: nvm I'm being dim, so maybe the extra tank damage ratio for 10 man almost makes up for the more damage 25 mans get from raidwide buffs.. but I doubt all of it.

Still doesn't explain why this guy above thinks that 10 mans are balanced to a lesser ratio than 25's, if anything at all they are tighter, based on pure mathematics alone.

I'm not saying one is harder or easier but you should only look at any dps check boss in last 3 years and see how the first kills looked in both sizes. In 10 man they always had time to spare while first 25 man kills were in very last seconds by the skin of their teeth. When bosses are tuned differently all 'ratios' and 'math' don't matter. Can you find me one dps race boss that had tighter enrage timer on 10 man?
Rag heroic P3, Ultraxion, Spine tendons, Gara'jal...dps checks were much tighter in 25 man. Again, I am not saying they were easier or harder cos that can depend on many other things but seeing people claiming that dps checks are tighter on 10 man is ridiculous.

[Deleted]

Now that you bring the point to the table, I was actually looking at the kill time of Megaera.

Same day, same reset:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8r...?s=9079&e=9563
This our fastest kill. 126k dps per player on average, 25 players included. Fight lasts 8:04.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vj...=11404&e=11813
This is Moonz fastest kill. 111,5k dps per player on average, 10 players included. Fight lasts 6:49.

While there is clearly a difference in average dps, the fight is way faster. Obviously it's hard to gauge the impact of aoeing the adds but still.
Less dps requirement for a fight that is ~20% faster. DPS requirements in 10 man are usually way lower.

I dont know why you chose meagera since the fact that theres tons more adds on 25 and the fact that 10 man and 25 man usually handle it differently from what i see makes the dps very untelling of what is actually happening in the fight, i rarely see 25 mans pushing a head on 10 % when adds just spawn, which is a necessity on 10 due having a very high and specific dps req on each head for a specific timer. This is due to insane healing req in 10 man and to prove that you can look at your own logs and then at moonz logs and just calculate average healing per healer and notice that the 10 man is higher, which should basically never happen right? Due to aoe heal effects without a target cap can go nuts in 25 man which in 10 man it caps at 40% of what it would be in 25 man theoretically.

To just finish it off, the fact that you think dps is everything that gear has to do with is kind of funny Especially since you are in method, i thought the best 25 man guild in the world would actually have players that knew what gear is made for.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 01:40 AM ----------

that goes for discmeedel
<snip> http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/up...rned-area.jpeg

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...b-butthurt.gif

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 01:43 AM ----------

I'm not saying one is harder or easier but you should only look at any dps check boss in last 3 years and see how the first kills looked in both sizes. In 10 man they always had time to spare while first 25 man kills were in very last seconds by the skin of their teeth. When bosses are tuned differently all 'ratios' and 'math' don't matter. Can you find me one dps race boss that had tighter enrage timer on 10 man?

I wont disagree with you about anything in those 3 years apart from raids in MoP. T11 i didnt play so i cant tell really, but firelands and dragonsoul sure was easier on 10 man and i tried both 10 and 25. MoP is a complete different story.

Warning; Don't link posts with MEMEs, no link one yourself. (by Sonnillon)

[Deleted]

Can you make a new thread? who the fuck cares.

[Radalek]

Now that you bring the point to the table, I was actually looking at the kill time of Megaera.

Same day, same reset:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-8r...?s=9079&e=9563
This our fastest kill. 126k dps per player on average, 25 players included. Fight lasts 8:04.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-vj...=11404&e=11813
This is Moonz fastest kill. 111,5k dps per player on average, 10 players included. Fight lasts 6:49.

While there is clearly a difference in average dps, the fight is way faster. Obviously it's hard to gauge the impact of aoeing the adds but still.
Less dps requirement for a fight that is ~20% faster. DPS requirements in 10 man are usually way lower.

And voila, here's all you need to know, case closed.

[Old]

As I'm personally a healer, your point doesn't really prove anything. We aren't talking about healing. Besides the fact that the shorter a fight is, the more mana you can spend, especially on a 6:49 vs 8:04. Maybe Megaera 10 man requires a little bit more healing but the faster you go through the normal phase, the higher your HPS will be because you still go through 6 Rampages no matter how fast your kill is, and this is when your HPS climbs.

Maybe you'll have a good explanation for the fact that, on every boss, the fastest kills in 10 man are way faster than the fastest kills in 25 man? DPS requirements maybe?

take a look : http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...f_Thunder/dps/

[Deleted]

And voila, here's all you need to know, case closed.

Oh i didnt know that the longer a fight is the harder its tuned, i guess other factors just are ruled out?
Pro tip atleast try to give me some info to prove your point.
Also if you want to end the discussion then guess you shouldnt post because i wouldnt say you are giving anything constructive.

[Xeraxis]

Now if you dont understand this, then you just havent even been in a 10 man environment without heavily overgearing it (which 99% of all topraiders do and then say 10 man is so easy while they have alrdy cleared that content on 25 and overgear it.

Someone hasn't raided since WotLK so let me be the first to welcome you to 2013 where 10 and 25 gear is equal.

[Deleted]

As I'm personally a healer, your point doesn't really prove anything. We aren't talking about healing. Besides the fact that the shorter a fight is, the more mana you can spend, especially on a 6:49 vs 8:04. Maybe Megaera 10 man requires a little bit more healing but the faster you go through the normal phase, the higher your HPS will be because you still go through 7 Rampages no matter how faster your kill is, and this is when your HPS climbs.

Maybe you'll have a good explanation for the fact that, all the fastest kill in 10 man are way faster than all the fastest kill in 25 man? DPS requirements maybe?

take a look : http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...f_Thunder/dps/

I guess you couldnt understand my point in my previous post because it was quite obvious that i meant that the general dps requirement, meaning specific damage done need to be done is higher in 25 man, meanwhile the harder part in 10 man for the dps is where the add waves comes and you need to basically burn either the head before the next wave or burn the adds or hope for the best, it basically works like this: 4 breath on tanks = wipe unless your tanks have a lot of cds or lots of outside cds and even if you survive it creates a chaos which is pretty much impossible to recover from in 10 man due to the fact that we get same amount of torrents and cinders as 25 man which for your info does make the healing req quite high in the normal phases too in 10 man meanwhile a 25 man just have their healers spamming their filler heals.
So i guess what you wanted was to prove that you are stupid enough to choose a dps req in a fight where the overall dps is really nothing compared to just doing mechanics properly and healing which is what actually counts on megeara. Of course doing the mechanics properly in 25 man barely affects anything unless its a cinder or torrent straight on the raid in a 25 man meanwhile on 10 it needs close to perfect execution just due to the fact we get so much abilities at the target cap of 1 in both 10 and 25 which basically screws us over. Having 1 of your healers getting a torrent straight before rampage is fun in 10 man right? 25 man i dont even think you noticed that as some sort of problem just due to the low healing req and amount of healers in the raid you have.

[Old]

I'm simply pointing at the fact that even tho 25 man has better dps overall, the requirements are tighter. It doesn't matter how much dps you do, it's the requirements that are important. If a fight is longer, it means the requirements are higher. It doesn't matter if we do 4000 times the dps of a 10man if the requirements is higher.

Fastest kills show you how much easier it is to shorten a fight in 10 man.

It makes all the difference on enrage timers which are usually easier to meet in 10 man than in 25 man. Enrage timers being one of the difficulty of the fights. One among others.

edit: dude I just read your post, you are definitely not worth discussing with. Read all your babbling about dps being easier in 25man 3 posts above, then come back. You are starting to chitchat about X situation and you can't even properly grasp when most of the healing is done on Megaera. The faster you go between Rampages, the higher your hps will be, simple logic.

[Deleted]

Someone hasn't raided since WotLK so let me be the first to welcome you to 2013 where 10 and 25 gear is equal.

I assume you dont understand we are talking about heroic level with normal gear pretty much, to anyone that raids heroics early on, full or close to full heroic gear is overgearing it so it doesnt really matter if 10 or 25 gear is equal my point is that if you have killed a boss already in 25 you have already gathered gear from it so you will have an advantage when you later do it on 10 man. If you then take in to account that top guilds that raid 25 man wont ever do 10 man unless progress is actually done(not that they usually do that though but paragon did it in FL) This means they will have the amount of resets of gear from 25 man already when they enter the 10 man version + they have killed all bosses already before. Now they basically are overgearing it compared to when they did it in 25 man + they have lots of exp which will just make your experience very hard to judge due to it basically being deciding diffuculty between progress and farm.

[Deleted]

Anyone stating that just dont raid heroics early on (and yes im 7/13 H 10 man atm) so i do know what you are saying is just not true.

It has been stated before that they take into account the number of tanks, healers, dps, and the less buffs/debuffs plus gear awarded per player when balancing 10M, its not like blizzard is dumb enough to just ignore it. The gear per player in 25 man should not even be mentioned as clearing an instance in a couple resets should not give much more gear in 25M per player comparing to 10M, it's a thing that you will only take notice in the long run and in the end all will have the same gear its a matter of getting it first, and we are talking here about top guilds aiming for WF in a couple resets, besides your argument can only be taken seriously if you were at 7/13HC on 25M also.

This proves exactly my point that if Paragon wasn't raiding 10M all other guilds would QQ so much about it being too hard and impossible and even if a 25M guild switched in a reset to 10M and killed it all to just shut them up, they would still say that they had a gear advantage. This kinda of QQ happen in the past, and now that there is a serious 10M guild around and blizzard is tuning encounters accordingly they want it to be as easy like it was before.

[Deleted]

I'm simply pointing at the fact that even tho 25 man has better dps overall, the requirements are tighter. It doesn't matter how much dps you do, it's the requirements that are important. If a fight is longer, it means the requirements are higher. It doesn't matter if we do 4000 times the dps of a 10man if the requirements is higher.

Fastest kills show you how much easier it is to shorten a fight in 10 man.

It makes all the difference on enrage timers which are usually easier to meet in 10 man than in 25 man. Enrage timers being one of the difficulty of the fights. One among others.

The problem with this is that you raid 25 man and i raid 10 man, 25 man generally focus more on pure numbers with less mechanics. 10 man is more about pushing your numbers while having lots of stuff to do. This makes everything a lot more biased. All i can say though is that generally fights with tight enrage timers on 25 man bring other problems to a 10 man which you could never think of. Also since i play a dps myself i know that the numbers of a fight is NEVER the hard part of the fight unless you play with bad players simply put, it will always be the mechanics that wipe you the most. You never start progress on a fight by just thinking about pure dps, unless its an ultraxion/patchwerk kind of fight.
My point is though is that it really doesnt matter about the pure numbers in most fights, if any this tier atleast and even if some fights have a higher dps req on 25 man then be it so, you most likely have it easier in a lot of ways anyways.
Then again i dont know where all this dps req talk came from because it really is one of the minor things in boss diffuculty comparison imo.

[Mormolyce]

No encounter can compare with Lei Shen, for me(and I guess most top raiders agree) Lei Shen was the last boss.

What is this rubbish?

There is a boss nobody has downed yet. Race is still on, slackers!

[Deleted]

It has been stated before that they take into account the number of tanks, healers, dps, and the less buffs/debuffs plus gear awarded per player when balancing 10M, its not like blizzard is dumb enough to just ignore it. The gear per player in 25 man should not even be mentioned as clearing an instance in a couple resets should not give much more gear in 25M per player comparing to 10M, it's a thing that you will only take notice in the long run and in the end all will have the same gear its a matter of getting it first, and we are talking here about top guilds aiming for WF in a couple resets, besides your argument can only be taken seriously if you were at 7/13HC on 25M also.

This proves exactly my point that if Paragon wasn't raiding 10M all other guilds would QQ so much about it being too hard and impossible and even if a 25M guild switched in a reset to 10M and killed it all to just shut them up, they would still say that they had a gear advantage. This kinda of QQ happen in the past, and now that there is a serious 10M guild around and blizzard is tuning encounters accordingly they want it to be as easy like it was before.

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild_ilvl
I guess everything is right on that list. Apart from the current one, both method and BL had 3 I lvls higher than paragon when they started the WF race? Thats nothing right? you who seem to know so much about the WF race. So basically you say something shouldnt be done that is being done? I just lost myself in that statement, or are you actually saying that 10 man is at a disadvantage without knowing it urself?.

About the 25 man diffuculty, i really cant give you exactly what you want and if thats all your happy with then dont bother reading, i do on the other hand have a guildie of mine that came straight from a 25 man hc guild and he basically agrees with pretty much everything that i stand for. Whether his opinion is worth anything for you is not for me to decide but that is where my 25 man experience mostly comes from apart from obv going through logs, looking videos, reading forums and talking with other friends that raid 25 man atm but not on as high level. I have also raided 25 man previous tiers ofc if thats worth anything to you.

The thing about paragon can be viewed upon in many ways, and the way that i would say is the most logical is this.
Everyone can agree that paragon was far more than just dominant in the WF race as a 25 man guild right? Before MoP they decided to downgrade to due to not being able to keep their lvl if they would go 25 man right? This basically means as pretty much anyone should know, they took the best possible roster they could out of the people that wanted to go on. Now with the best of the best this could only have 1 outcome right? This will be totally onesided. Well funny enough paragon has started losing that big gap that was between them and other guilds arguably due to the fact that they switched to 10 man.
According to you 10 man should be tuned accordingly meaning the same as 25 man. I am sorry but i just cant believe that is true not only with other things i have mentioned in this thread but paragons situation basically confirms it in my mind atleast.
Fyi: I love the tuning of 10 man atm, i just dont want to be compared to 25 mans for above mentioned reasons. But for people misunderstanding me
10 man = appropriately tuned
25 man = easily tuned

[asdfsaf]

>whine about magaera having overtuned numbers on 10h
>get proven wrong
"magaera is a bad example guys, numbers dont matter there"

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 12:40 AM ----------

>talks about top raiding
>stuck at 7/13, hasn't touched any of the four non-pushover bosses

please tell us more about how good you are

[EdisonChen]

Ground Zero got Asia first.

Ground Zero at KR-Azshara didn't down 25 Heroic Lei Shen, they took Korean first down by 10 man.

[Takeada]

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild_ilvl
The thing about paragon can be viewed upon in many ways, and the way that i would say is the most logical is this.
Everyone can agree that paragon was far more than just dominant in the WF race as a 25 man guild right? Before MoP they decided to downgrade to due to not being able to keep their lvl if they would go 25 man right? This basically means as pretty much anyone should know, they took the best possible roster they could out of the people that wanted to go on. Now with the best of the best this could only have 1 outcome right? This will be totally onesided. Well funny enough paragon has started losing that big gap that was between them and other guilds arguably due to the fact that they switched to 10 man.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with this argument. That since Paragon went to 10 man the 25 man guilds that were competing with them in previous tiers when Paragon was a 25 man raid are now catching up because Paragon is now doing 10 mans? Really? How you think that's logical is beyond me. Especially when Paragon is easily downing the more difficult bosses of the tier well ahead of their 25 man competition still.

If anything, Blizzard has proven themselves that they overtune 25 man. Twin Consorts lasted until a second reset for 25 man while Paragon downed it in a matter of hours, which ended up having Blizzard nerf the 25 man version considerably.

[Vakna]

>whine about magaera having overtuned numbers on 10h
>get proven wrong
"magaera is a bad example guys, numbers dont matter there"

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 12:40 AM ----------

>talks about top raiding
>stuck at 7/13, hasn't touched any of the four non-pushover bosses

please tell us more about how good you are

Please suck more of your own e-penis.

Infracted; Don't insult people nor post off-topic. (by Sonnillon)

[asdfsaf]

i will do that

Warning; Don't reply to offensive posts. Report those. (by Sonnillon)

[EdisonChen]

Asia 25 Heroic Lei Shen first down by * 煌 at CN-Dark Iron
Tank: Protection Paladin, Brewmaster Monk
Healer: Mistweaver Monk*2, Holy Paladin, Discipline Priest, Restoration Shaman
DPS: Warlock*4, Rogue*4, Mage*2, Balance Druid*2, Hunter, Elemental Shaman, Fury Warrior, Retribution Paladin, Unholy Death Knight, Frost DK

Asia 25-player Mode have been added 8% health and damage more than West, and +8 item level in return.