1. #3681
    I must admit that so far this tier has been more interesting than the last one, though it is a given that the gating did quite effectively reset the race between the instances.

    Quote Originally Posted by discmeedel View Post
    what do the average dpser do on ji-kun 25 hc?
    I hate to step in on this, but if you're talking about the mechanics that the players have to execute then Ji-Kun is probably not a fight you'll want to use as a supporting example. I also fail to see the benefit of arguing about the two sizes. They're often too different to compare.

  2. #3682
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    As I'm personally a healer, your point doesn't really prove anything. We aren't talking about healing. Besides the fact that the shorter a fight is, the more mana you can spend, especially on a 6:49 vs 8:04. Maybe Megaera 10 man requires a little bit more healing but the faster you go through the normal phase, the higher your HPS will be because you still go through 6 Rampages no matter how fast your kill is, and this is when your HPS climbs.

    Maybe you'll have a good explanation for the fact that, on every boss, the fastest kills in 10 man are way faster than the fastest kills in 25 man? DPS requirements maybe?

    take a look : http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...f_Thunder/dps/
    Maybe it is because a 10man hardcore guild is more likely to have a higher constituent of skill in their raid, whereas in 25man, it has been demonstrated time and time again, the skill level varies however much you try to twist the truth to be the opposite.

    Also, tell me about Sha of Fear 25 v 10. 25man version lasted like 4 minutes longer but was at the same time vastly easier, in fact, even faceroll because you could just completely avoid the ball throwing during huddle and just spamheal through it. And what about Sinestra 10 vs 25? One was a joke, the other actually required you to play. And Sinestra is a fine example of how 10mans are harder. 2 people are affected by orbs = 2 people unable to do max dps. 20% of your raid ruled out, whereas in 25man that would be a measly 8%.
    Last edited by mmoc4282a3f415; 2013-04-08 at 03:54 AM.

  3. #3683
    being the professional raider you are, you surely know that healing through huddle was not in order to cheese the encounter but to prevent the movement speed buff on the adds from resetting, in order to let them reach the middle faster, because it was otherwise impossible to kill them before the next spawn, right? if you think that healing huddles made the encounter easier in any way you are very much mistaken, my friend.

    ironically enough, this is of course something you could never have known or even thought about, for stuff dies 20% faster in 10 player mode.
    Last edited by asdfsaf; 2013-04-08 at 04:27 AM.

  4. #3684
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    I'm simply pointing at the fact that even tho 25 man has better dps overall, the requirements are tighter. It doesn't matter how much dps you do, it's the requirements that are important. If a fight is longer, it means the requirements are higher. It doesn't matter if we do 4000 times the dps of a 10man if the requirements is higher.
    10 vs 25 dps requirements per dps are usually more or less the same given the difference between raidwide buffs such as stormlash and banners. its also a fact that in 10man its easier to get dpsers that are equal to each other whilst on 25 the dps difference between the best and the last dps is usually huge. But the real difference comes from tank and healer dps, just to check your logs from megaera and comparing it to moonz one, the tank dps alone has a huge impact and is alot higher in 10 than 25. Now check the healer dps, in 10man its ~9% of the raids overall dmg while on 25 its less than 3%.

    whose fault is it that 10man healers and tanks deal way more damage than those of 25?
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    Fastest kills show you how much easier it is to shorten a fight in 10 man.
    as said, its easier to have 7 proper dpsers than 20, + tank and healer dmg that in 10man is nearly always greater



    edit: everything is from the 2 logs you provided, even if the fight is a bad example due to different tactics, the info is still correct

  5. #3685
    Seven Lights at CN-Dreadmist Peak got the world 4th and asia first 25man

  6. #3686
    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    Maybe it is because a 10man hardcore guild is more likely to have a higher constituent of skill in their raid, whereas in 25man, it has been demonstrated time and time again, the skill level varies however much you try to twist the truth to be the opposite.

    Also, tell me about Sha of Fear 25 v 10. 25man version lasted like 4 minutes longer but was at the same time vastly easier, in fact, even faceroll because you could just completely avoid the ball throwing during huddle and just spamheal through it. And what about Sinestra 10 vs 25? One was a joke, the other actually required you to play. And Sinestra is a fine example of how 10mans are harder. 2 people are affected by orbs = 2 people unable to do max dps. 20% of your raid ruled out, whereas in 25man that would be a measly 8%.
    Sinestra 10 man was likely designed around the fact that you could possibly lose 2 dps to kiting orbs so that's not the best example. Sha of Fear as well isn't as easy as you make it out to be just by healing through the huddles at a certain point. Furthermore, 2 examples don't justify 10 man being harder than 25 man, and it's fairly obvious that while there are some fights that are easier in 10 man, there are some that are similarly easier for 25 man. So it's not as cut and dry as generally saying one is easier than the other.

  7. #3687
    Any time you have a mechanic that affects the same number of people in both raid sizes, 10 mans are at a disadvantage. I remember distinctly a friend of mine in a HC 25 joking about H-Blackhorn (before nerfs, before any of you ask, but obviously not the same week Paragon was doing it) and his barrages, and I found out that 25 had the same number of twilight barrages (the small void zones) and they hit for the same amount as ours in 10 man. Except we had to often cover those barrages with 1-2 more stacks of the debuff than 25 man, because we had less people to cover barrages in general.

    The space issue is often conflated as a big deal for 25s as a serious disadvantage over 10 mans, who have so much more room to spread out on chaining mechanics. I can list all these fights since the equalization of 10s and 25s:

    t11:
    H-Magmaw's last phase
    H-Chim
    H-Maloriak
    ...and then...?
    H-V&T, maybe? I don't remember how 25s did it, but we spread ouf in 10 man for the fabulous flames.
    H-Sinestra, kind of, you just wanted to make sure you could clearly identify who the cutters were on.
    H-Al'akir, I'll give you that one, that was ridiculous on 25m.
    Let's see, that includes two fights where you just assigned spots, grouped up during group phases (Chim's head phase and Maloriak's red/black phases), a spread out which wasn't about chaining but more an issue of overlapping the fabulous flames, and Sinestra, which just made it easier to identify who the cutters were on.

    t12:
    Ummm....H-Baleroc, to an extent, except it ended up that in 10 man we all had to spread out, while in 25 man, you just had people assigned to soak crystals and the rest of the ranged piled up in a group.
    And the dreaded H-Rag p1, by far the easiest part of the fight.

    t13:
    H-Hagara was a good example for 25s, except you had to only assign spots, run to them before the add was killed, and instantly finish the chain. 10 man was a much different story.
    H-Zon'ozz required you to cover the whole room of tentacles, but not really a spacing issue.

    t14:
    H-Spirit Kings, kind of, for Subotai and the shadow add guy, but not chaining mechanics, just be spread mechanics.
    H-Blade Lord, not a chain, just a matter of stacking tornados
    H-Wind Lord for wind bombs, again not a chain, just a matter of stacking them.
    H-Empress for splash damage on sound things, but again, just pick-a-place and don't move unless you have to for Cry of Terror.
    H-Lei Shi, if you were bad enough to stand in the splash damage from tank water bolts
    H-Sha for bolts/flame circlesm, waterspouts, again, not a chain, you could stack on other people as long as everyone was good at running away

    Al'akir and Rag are the ones people often cite, but Rag's spread out was in p1, which was a joke after about 20 attempts. Al'akir was legit hard as balls for 25, and easier in 10 (though our healers had to cover like, 1/3rd of the platform themselves).

    A few of the fights in 10 man where you need to cover a lot more space with less people and spacing is actually more difficult in 10 man (I can actually not thnk of any in t11, but it has changed a lot since then):
    t12:
    H-Beth'tilac, have one hunter cover a random spawn from a spiderling nest, as compared to guaranteed spawns from each nest in 25 with 2-3 people teams sitting there and blowing them up.
    H-Baleroc, needed all your people in great positioning and rotating in for crystals, save maybe 1.
    H-Domo. Harder on 25 to spread for cat leaps, much harder in 10 to adequately cover crystal spawns in 10 man.

    t13:
    H-Hagara, evne though I gave you this one, I'm taking it back. I had to chain lightning off me, to our lock, to a totem, to my pet, to the lock's pet, to the next totem, while our tanks and melee had to run to the other side after chaining their initial totem to chain the one our pets chained to. infinitely harder than "get in place and now kill this add."
    H-Blackhorn, like mentioned above, covering barrages.
    H-Madness, lol at stacking up in 3 groups for crushes. During pre-nerf 10 man progression, this had to be 2 healed, and if more than 1 person was hit by crush it regularly led to disaster.

    t14:
    H-SG, harder to run tiles in 10 man, though tanking positioning was more a pain in the ass in 25.
    H-Elegon, more for the fact that we had 6 DPS for 6 sparks. Have you ever had to solo a spark as a feral druid during progression? Ours did. Not a chain though, just more ground we had to cover with no backup whatsoever.
    H-Will, lol, so much more space to cover when everyone has to cover everything and you move from courages, to rages, back to bosses, etc.
    H-Garalon, everyone had to kite pheremones in 10 man. Every. single. raider.

    Just a brief synopsis of 10 man vs. 25 man spacing issues in t15, even though I'm obviously not done with it yet:
    H-Horridon, more people to chain the shaman's CL off of, on door 4, in 25 man.
    H-Council, harder on 10 man in general, but also harder to soak frostbites (either via healing through it or stacking up for it).
    H-Tortos, harder to not chain rockfalls on each other, in 25.
    H-Megaera, "harder" to not stand in shit in 25 (largely irrelevant in that you can stay loosely stacked til you get that beam on you), easier in that less (proportionally) have to kite ice beams or run out for cinders.
    H-Ji-kun, same number of feed pools, same shit that has to be covered, more people to cover it in terms of nest teams. In 10, everyone will have to kill a nest at some point, either as the primary nest team, or the secondary.
    H-Durumu, more people to soak each beam, more eyes to spot add spawns, more people to block healing beams. Maze is harder in 25, I suppose, but it's not hard in general.
    H-Primordius, harder on 25 when spines are out. Harder on 10 when caustic sgas is out.
    H-DA. Still no idea how this is done in 10 man. No videos afaik, and I haven't done it, but if it's like normal, where there's usually only 1 healer in range of a tank at any given time til golems are killed, should be harder in 10 even with half the golems. Even our healers have to soak golems in 10 man.
    H-Qon, probably harder in 25 for lightning phase, though I can't speak to in 25, and seems pretty easy anyways.
    H-TC, was much easier in 10 man, 25 was nerfed, but space concerns were centered around not getting hit my multiple stars afaik.
    H-Lei Shen, lol, 2 people to soak 2 quadrants in p1, I can't even imagine it, and eagerly await Paragon's video on how they managed that.

  8. #3688
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    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    10 vs 25 dps requirements per dps are usually more or less the same given the difference between raidwide buffs such as stormlash and banners. its also a fact that in 10man its easier to get dpsers that are equal to each other whilst on 25 the dps difference between the best and the last dps is usually huge. But the real difference comes from tank and healer dps, just to check your logs from megaera and comparing it to moonz one, the tank dps alone has a huge impact and is alot higher in 10 than 25. Now check the healer dps, in 10man its ~9% of the raids overall dmg while on 25 its less than 3%.

    whose fault is it that 10man healers and tanks deal way more damage than those of 25?

    as said, its easier to have 7 proper dpsers than 20, + tank and healer dmg that in 10man is nearly always greater



    edit: everything is from the 2 logs you provided, even if the fight is a bad example due to different tactics, the info is still correct
    I never disagreed with all this. And the fact that tuning is different dps-wise doesn't change the truth you expose. It actually looks even worse to me, if you have lower dps requirements and on top of that healers and tanks that contributes greatly to the raid dps, it explains everything.

    I didn't want to get into this topic but what you said is for me the essence between 10 man and 25 man. Raid comp is important in 25man, but bringing the right classes in 10man (which are usually the same all along the tier) is completely game changing. It's quite impossible for the devs to tune 10man too tightly regarding numbers, because most of the time changing one class just gets you suddenly 5% more dps on the boss. Tuning for an average 10man comp gives a huge advantage to the optimized one, it's not the same in practice for 25man (even for the very best). And on top of this, bringing healers that can dps just accentuates the trend. All this contributes my above observation of having 10 man kill being faster than 25 ones.

    Same goes for RNG, I'm not even doing 10man but you surely have seen it yourself. 25 man averages the raid dps much better than in 10man. Having a good streak of crit/proc in 10man, just from one player, can drastically increase your raiddps.

  9. #3689
    Is anyone even close to 13/13? Seems like it's been a while.

  10. #3690
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    I never disagreed with all this. And the fact that tuning is different dps-wise doesn't change the truth you expose. It actually looks even worse to me, if you have lower dps requirements and on top of that healers and tanks that contributes greatly to the raid dps, it explains everything.

    I didn't want to get into this topic but what you said is for me the essence between 10 man and 25 man. Raid comp is important in 25man, but bringing the right classes in 10man (which are usually the same all along the tier) is completely game changing. It's quite impossible for the devs to tune 10man too tightly regarding numbers, because most of the time changing one class just gets you suddenly 5% more dps on the boss. Tuning for an average 10man comp gives a huge advantage to the optimized one, it's not the same in practice for 25man (even for the very best). And on top of this, bringing healers that can dps just accentuates the trend. All this contributes my above observation of having 10 man kill being faster than 25 ones.

    Same goes for RNG, I'm not even doing 10man but you surely have seen it yourself. 25 man averages the raid dps much better than in 10man. Having a good streak of crit/proc in 10man, just from one player, can drastically increase your raiddps.
    Wow your stupidity is outstanding. He never said it was lower requirement. He is simply saying that it might look lower because the DPS difference between the highest and the lowest on 25man is a lot bigger. As a result it seems a lot "higher", while on 10 man, players are more equal in skill.

  11. #3691
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    They did say Ra-den would be hard and by the looks of it, he is. Which I'm totally fine with. As in who will kill it first, you would obviously go with the favourites of DREAM Paragon because they've had the most looks at him but anyone who is 12/13 H has a shot. I would love to see the video on him though. Probably hell

  12. #3692
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    I never disagreed with all this. And the fact that tuning is different dps-wise doesn't change the truth you expose. It actually looks even worse to me, if you have lower dps requirements and on top of that healers and tanks that contributes greatly to the raid dps, it explains everything.

    I didn't want to get into this topic but what you said is for me the essence between 10 man and 25 man. Raid comp is important in 25man, but bringing the right classes in 10man (which are usually the same all along the tier) is completely game changing. It's quite impossible for the devs to tune 10man too tightly regarding numbers, because most of the time changing one class just gets you suddenly 5% more dps on the boss. Tuning for an average 10man comp gives a huge advantage to the optimized one, it's not the same in practice for 25man (even for the very best). And on top of this, bringing healers that can dps just accentuates the trend. All this contributes my above observation of having 10 man kill being faster than 25 ones.
    its easier, yeap, but my point was that 25's could hugely improve their performance (dps wise) resulting the 2 raid sizes to be closer together in peoples eyes
    Last edited by lappee; 2013-04-08 at 08:58 AM.

  13. #3693
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikehuntz View Post
    They did say Ra-den would be hard and by the looks of it, he is. Which I'm totally fine with. As in who will kill it first, you would obviously go with the favourites of DREAM Paragon because they've had the most looks at him but anyone who is 12/13 H has a shot. I would love to see the video on him though. Probably hell
    i dont think its hard mechanicly its just 60-90 attempts from the top guilds and the fight is a gearcheck so they will kill it fast if the gear is right.
    People forget that you can only try this boss 30 times a week.

  14. #3694
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    I never disagreed with all this. And the fact that tuning is different dps-wise doesn't change the truth you expose. It actually looks even worse to me, if you have lower dps requirements and on top of that healers and tanks that contributes greatly to the raid dps, it explains everything.

    I didn't want to get into this topic but what you said is for me the essence between 10 man and 25 man. Raid comp is important in 25man, but bringing the right classes in 10man (which are usually the same all along the tier) is completely game changing. It's quite impossible for the devs to tune 10man too tightly regarding numbers, because most of the time changing one class just gets you suddenly 5% more dps on the boss. Tuning for an average 10man comp gives a huge advantage to the optimized one, it's not the same in practice for 25man (even for the very best). And on top of this, bringing healers that can dps just accentuates the trend. All this contributes my above observation of having 10 man kill being faster than 25 ones.

    Same goes for RNG, I'm not even doing 10man but you surely have seen it yourself. 25 man averages the raid dps much better than in 10man. Having a good streak of crit/proc in 10man, just from one player, can drastically increase your raiddps.
    Remember 10 man H Gara'jal the first week he was out? There was so much QQ on the forums about how he was "mathematically impossible" with only 1 reset of 489 gear and that Paragon only killed him because they did multiple 25 man clears so they had 485+ ilvl going into the fight.

    As for Paragon's first H Lei Shen kill, I wonder why they didn't have a Shaman in the raid when 25 mans have at least 1 Shaman in their kill.

  15. #3695
    Quote Originally Posted by Old View Post
    I never disagreed with all this. And the fact that tuning is different dps-wise doesn't change the truth you expose. It actually looks even worse to me, if you have lower dps requirements and on top of that healers and tanks that contributes greatly to the raid dps, it explains everything.

    I didn't want to get into this topic but what you said is for me the essence between 10 man and 25 man. Raid comp is important in 25man, but bringing the right classes in 10man (which are usually the same all along the tier) is completely game changing. It's quite impossible for the devs to tune 10man too tightly regarding numbers, because most of the time changing one class just gets you suddenly 5% more dps on the boss. Tuning for an average 10man comp gives a huge advantage to the optimized one, it's not the same in practice for 25man (even for the very best). And on top of this, bringing healers that can dps just accentuates the trend. All this contributes my above observation of having 10 man kill being faster than 25 ones.

    Same goes for RNG, I'm not even doing 10man but you surely have seen it yourself. 25 man averages the raid dps much better than in 10man. Having a good streak of crit/proc in 10man, just from one player, can drastically increase your raiddps.
    you should read your post history, it is like a comedy stand-up.

  16. #3696
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Remember 10 man H Gara'jal the first week he was out? There was so much QQ on the forums about how he was "mathematically impossible" with only 1 reset of 489 gear and that Paragon only killed him because they did multiple 25 man clears so they had 485+ ilvl going into the fight.

    As for Paragon's first H Lei Shen kill, I wonder why they didn't have a Shaman in the raid when 25 mans have at least 1 Shaman in their kill.
    they used 2 healers disc priest and mistweaver monk. and i'm guessing that the reason they were using those two is because of the tight tight gear check. this way they had 2 tanks 6 dps and 2 half dps doing healing.
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  17. #3697
    Quote Originally Posted by chaosjones View Post
    they used 2 healers disc priest and mistweaver monk. and i'm guessing that the reason they were using those two is because of the tight tight gear check. this way they had 2 tanks 6 dps and 2 half dps doing healing.
    Didn't they have like 4 druids by accident and since Heart of the wild was op back then it just made the dps check much less of a problem for them?

  18. #3698
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Remember 10 man H Gara'jal the first week he was out? There was so much QQ on the forums about how he was "mathematically impossible" with only 1 reset of 489 gear and that Paragon only killed him because they did multiple 25 man clears so they had 485+ ilvl going into the fight.
    He was by far doable even with normal 10-man gearing. Comp obviously played a fairly substantial part, but it was still doable. (i.e having a Guardian Druid with a SP weapon and/or a Disc. priest)

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    As for Paragon's first H Lei Shen kill, I wonder why they didn't have a Shaman in the raid when 25 mans have at least 1 Shaman in their kill.
    Shaman don't really bring anything special to the table. And Resto shaman especially are highly disadvantaged in 10-mans due to their reliance on Healing Rain.
    Last edited by Vereesa; 2013-04-08 at 11:28 AM.
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  19. #3699
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosjones View Post
    they used 2 healers disc priest and mistweaver monk. and i'm guessing that the reason they were using those two is because of the tight tight gear check. this way they had 2 tanks 6 dps and 2 half dps doing healing.
    Wrong.

    They used 3 healers: Holy Paladin, Disc Priest and Resto Druid.

    EDIT: And obviously Resto Druid used HotW at the start.

    EDIT2: Sorry. I thought you were referring to Garajal but you were indeed referring to Lei Shen. There you are correct. However, healing comp isn't necessarely because of the dps check but I'm not going to speculate more, let's wait for the video (if it's coming).
    Last edited by mmocfb9e2d35fb; 2013-04-08 at 11:36 AM.

  20. #3700
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    As for Paragon's first H Lei Shen kill, I wonder why they didn't have a Shaman in the raid when 25 mans have at least 1 Shaman in their kill.
    On our normal kills the sector with the resto shaman in it always has the most trouble during transitions, not entirely sure why but there you go. Shaman are pretty weak on this fight.
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