Throne of Thunder - World First Heroic Thread!

[Dawnrage]

And this is exactly my point: there's tens of thousands players that have more skill than those playing in the so-called top guilds. But they choose not to spend the idiotic amount of hours to get a World First. Hence my remark about people claiming to be the most skillful, while it's just about the time invested. People are less and less inclined to spend that time, so to get a group of people together to do so is almost not possible anymore. And in that way, you can't compare the guilds of now to the guilds of yesterday that don't exist anymore. Why don't they exist anymore, it's just because they didn't want to put in the effort anymore...

Let me give an example: two carpenters are being asked to make a table. One of them works day and night to finish it, the other only works at daytime. The first one has his table finished a few days before the second, does this means he has more skills? No, you can't say that solely based on the time invested in creating the table.

Sadly, only the results matter in WoW.

Because the "race" is not an actual race you can view but merely a forum thread (or website - WoWprogress) you can follow, it's pretty much a race where the victor can claim whatever they want.

Kudos to the top guilds, really, and I'm not even going to pretend that you guys aren't better than I am - but the time you spent is hugely the reason you guys are so successful. Then that time you spent is later followed up in videos for those who don't raid as much to follow - whether you are skilled or not does not matter when you are just mimicking someone's strategy.

Neither is better than the other, but with how things are now, WoW really doesn't take much in the way of skill to be considered a top player. A top guild is honestly just defined as time spent + team work. Skill matters but probably not as much as you would think it does.

[TooMuch]

But you are completely wrong by assuming they have the same skill level. Currently Method is above every other 25m guild. The end. It's not just a matter of time invested (even if it plays a big role), and even if it was, practice makes perfect anyway.
Don't twist my words pretty please~

Where am I wrong: I am even saying there are loads of people that are MORE skilled than them, but they choose not to spend the same amount of time. And I never said Method isn't above the rest of the 25-man guilds. BUT... the reason they are is because the time invested. Secondly I claimed you can not compare current guilds to those of previous expansions or even tiers.

[Fleuria]

Don't get me wrong, because I agree with you. But this one is a pretty fallacious argument - you're assuming the pool of talented players remains the same - we all know it's shrinking down, at least at the same rate as the wow playerbase itself if not a lot lot lot lot faster.

Player base is shrinking yes but no one is going to invest time into all day raiding unless its to Method or Blood legion as they are stable and can produce world firsts where as guilds like yourself, Apex, Exodus are all so unstable in world ranks this expansion that its not really worth the massive time investment if you can't keep a stable world rank so the player base feels like its shrinking for you guys especially if the guild the player is currently in can easily maintain a top5-30 rank relatively well over the expansion and they will never go to those guilds now as their current guild might even beat you next tier where as before in previous expansions guilds were a lot more stable around a specific world rank when you all day raided compared to what it is now.

[Justwait]

Where am I wrong: I am even saying there are loads of people that are MORE skilled than them, but they choose not to spend the same amount of time. And I never said Method isn't above the rest of the 25-man guilds. BUT... the reason they are is because the time invested. Secondly I claimed you can not compare current guilds to those of previous expansions or even tiers.

This point is not even close to the truth.
It's been proven that top guilds spend less time progressing compared to others - and to add to that we are doing it under geared to when others progress on it.

This kinda ruins the point you`re trying to make.
I'm sure there are people out there that are skilled and don't spend the time, but it's not the time investment that makes us 'good'.

[rogerbrown]

Sadly, only the results matter in WoW.

Because the "race" is not an actual race you can view but merely a forum thread (or website - WoWprogress) you can follow, it's pretty much a race where the victor can claim whatever they want.

Kudos to the top guilds, really, and I'm not even going to pretend that you guys aren't better than I am - but the time you spent is hugely the reason you guys are so successful. Then that time you spent is later followed up in videos for those who don't raid as much to follow - whether you are skilled or not does not matter when you are just mimicking someone's strategy.

Neither is better than the other, but with how things are now, WoW really doesn't take much in the way of skill to be considered a top player. A top guild is honestly just defined as time spent + team work. Skill matters but probably not as much as you would think it does.

Tbh even though I agree partially on what you say, I could easily make the same assumption about many other esports or sports too. For example, do you think the LoL players play less than we do? Do you think LoL is a hard game to play? Most of it is just figuring out new tactics (same as in WoW to down a new Boss), and to play a lot of hours practicing (same as in WoW you have your wipes). Another example is CS, do you think Scandinavians and Russians have better genes than the rest of the world? No, it is just the fact that they have been playing this game since they were 5 years old that makes them the best at it. I could say the same for sports too. Do you think a basketball player who practices 3 days a week and has more 'skill' than another player who practices 6 days a week, will be better than him?

tldr: time investment is a necessity if you want to achieve anything in life and be the best at it, skill is only the last 10-20%.

edit: As Justwait said above, the time we invest is indeed a lot, but is just concentrated in 2 weeks (this tier). Take a look at guilds who just killed or are still trying to kill Lei Shen. I can guarantee you that they spend more time overall than we did. So yes time invested is high for a SHORT period of time.

[TooMuch]

This point is not even close to the truth.
It's been proven that top guilds spend less time progressing compared to others - and to add to that we are doing it under geared to when others progress on it.

This kinda ruins the point you`re trying to make.
I'm sure there are people out there that are skilled and don't spend the time, but it's not the time investment that makes us 'good'.

We are talking to the World First race, not the amount of time taken to get the last boss down by an average guild. Secondly you do NOT count the amount of time spend on PTR, the amount of time spend while not raiding, the amount of time spend by the people supporting you (be it guildies farming stuff, or other people assisting in your ability to raid the insane amount of hours).

So yes, during WF race it IS the time spend and not skill. Even your guildie agrees with that...

[Dawnrage]

Tbh even though I agree partially on what you say, I could easily make the same assumption about many other esports or sports too. For example, do you think the LoL players play less than we do? Do you think LoL is a hard game to play? Most of it is just figuring out new tactics (same as in WoW to down a new Boss), and to play a lot of hours practicing (same as in WoW you have your wipes). Another example is CS, do you think Scandinavians and Russians have better genes than the rest of the world? No, it is just the fact that they have been playing this game since they were 5 years old that makes them the best at it. I could say the same for sports too. Do you think a basketball player who practices 3 days a week and has more 'skill' than another player who practices 6 days a week, will be better than him?

tldr: time investment is a necessity if you want to achieve anything in life and be the best at it, skill is only the last 10-20%.

edit: As Justwait said above, the time we invest is indeed a lot, but is just concentrated in 2 weeks (this tier). Take a look at guilds who just killed or are still trying to kill Lei Shen. I can guarantee you that they spend more time overall than we did. So yes time invested is high for a SHORT period of time.

I don't disagree that you have to put time into anything to be good at it, but I don't agree with your LoL or CS assessments. Those games do take skill in the form of reflexes, twitch, and decision making. Games changes when your opponents are human who think and react to situations like you do, not scripted events on a set timer. WoW PvE also has a lot to do on gear acquisition, just like any MMO would, but you don't get RNG gear in CS or LoL (well, you get my point about LoL). They are also recognized in the form of various tournaments that have spanned years and hefty prizes, to add to that, whereas WoW PvE is based off an unofficial website on arbitrary rankings. Not to mention that from a spectator standpoint, it's far more exciting to watch a CS or LoL game, considering the spectators don't even get to see anything in the WoW PvE race. WoW PvE is just not similiar at all to other kinds of games.

I don't see how you can compared being good at LoL or CS to being good at WoW PvE, if you have played them, you understand the level needed to play both at a high standard, and I would daresay that WoW has a way lower ceiling than either of those kind of games.

[Justwait]

We are talking to the World First race, not the amount of time taken to get the last boss down by an average guild. Secondly you do NOT count the amount of time spend on PTR, the amount of time spend while not raiding, the amount of time spend by the people supporting you (be it guildies farming stuff, or other people assisting in your ability to raid the insane amount of hours).

So you want to count the amount not raiding? We buy our stuff from the AH so there's not really anyone 'supporting' us like you think they are. PTR testing which all other top guilds do? You can't compare all this if you are talking about the 'World first race', because it's the same for all of the top guilds.
And in the 'World First' race there's all the top 10 guilds who spend almost as much time as us, especially the first week. Still your point is irrelevant.

You think any top 100 guild who raids 5 days a week could have achieved the same thing if they raided as much as we have?
Keep in mind that we have not raided more than 2~4 evenings from 19:30->2400 for 2 weeks already. And most of that is discussing due to 30 attempts!

[SolHeiM]

We are talking to the World First race, not the amount of time taken to get the last boss down by an average guild. Secondly you do NOT count the amount of time spend on PTR, the amount of time spend while not raiding, the amount of time spend by the people supporting you (be it guildies farming stuff, or other people assisting in your ability to raid the insane amount of hours).

So yes, during WF race it IS the time spend and not skill. Even your guildie agrees with that...

First of all, the guilds Method are competing against are also raiding as much as they are, if not more, during the first and second week of heroic progression. Method aren't competing against your average joe guild, they are competing against other guilds who raid just as much as they do. Secondly, it wasn't at all what he said.

I was in a guild that finished Tier 14 the week before 5.2 was released. We raided 5 days a week, every week since the third week of MoPs release. We spent more time than Method did on progress even with kill videos out, and we only managed to finish just in time before 5.2 came out. Time on PTR is 2 hours per boss at the most, it's not as much as you think, and those bosses are very often bugged or broken, and might be different on live.

Method raids a lot over a very short period of time, and with very skilled and experienced players they are able to cut time spent on progression down to a tenth or a twentieth to what the average guild (that manages to finish the tier) spends progressing on bosses.

[rogerbrown]

I don't disagree that you have to put time into anything to be good at it, but I don't agree with your LoL or CS assessments. Those games do take skill in the form of reflexes, twitch, and decision making. Games changes when your opponents are human who think and react to situations like you do, not scripted events on a set timer. WoW PvE also has a lot to do on gear acquisition, just like any MMO would, but you don't get RNG gear in CS or LoL (well, you get my point about LoL). They are also recognized in the form of various tournaments that have spanned years and hefty prizes, to add to that, whereas WoW PvE is based off an unofficial website on arbitrary rankings. Not to mention that from a spectator standpoint, it's far more exciting to watch a CS or LoL game, considering the spectators don't even get to see anything in the WoW PvE race. WoW PvE is just not similiar at all to other kinds of games.

I don't see how you can compared being good at LoL or CS to being good at WoW PvE, if you have played them, you understand the level needed to play both at a high standard, and I would daresay that WoW has a way lower ceiling than either of those kind of games.

I never said that those games are not 'harder' than WoW. Of course when you are playing against other humans it will be harder. Let me put it in a different way then so that I can make my point clearer.
Say you have player A, who started playing LoL/CS 1 year ago and has personal skill 100. Then you have player B, who started playing LoL/CS 5 years ago and has personal skill 90. Assuming both players play the same amount of time every day, is there any doubt in your mind that player B is going to beat player A?

Another example: player A and B both start playing LoL/CS 1 year ago. Player A has personal skill 100, and player B has personal skill 90. Player A plays 2 days a week, and player B plays 6 days a week. Of course player B is going to beat player A. Who is the better player tho? In my mind, it is player B.

[Dawnrage]

This point is not even close to the truth.
It's been proven that top guilds spend less time progressing compared to others - and to add to that we are doing it under geared to when others progress on it.

This kinda ruins the point you`re trying to make.
I'm sure there are people out there that are skilled and don't spend the time, but it's not the time investment that makes us 'good'.

Less time progressing, yes, less time playing the game though? I'm not so sure about that. Obviously I don't know much about Method, but I can say that BL definitely spends a lot of time outside of actual raiding gearing up their main crew by doing multiple alt runs to funnel as much gear as they can to their main. Not to mention the time spent on PTR and whatever you have to do to be able to sustain raiding.

I don't doubt that you are all talented WoW players and the peak of your respective classes, but that merely came from playing a ton no? Any guild raiding 5 days a week probably doesn't have a whole lot of serious players to begin with. If they were, they would be raiding the hours you did to begin with. I don't think it's fair to claim that any 5 day raiding guild raiding the times you did would not accomplish as much as you would - it's better to say that because you raid the times you do, you get players that do want to put forth as much as possible to attain the accomplishments you have.

[TooMuch]

So you want to count the amount not raiding? We buy our stuff from the AH so there's not really anyone 'supporting' us like you think they are. PTR testing which all other top guilds do? You can't compare all this if you are talking about the 'World first race', because it's the same for all of the top guilds.
And in the 'World First' race there's all the top 10 guilds who spend almost as much time as us, especially the first week. Still your point is irrelevant.

I won't repeat what I said before, but it seems you guys can't even read. Or understand what's being said. You come up with different things all the time, while I just claim that's not skill that gets you a WF, but the time invested. And the reason you have only a few guilds "competing" is because people do NOT want to spend the same amount of time, even though they are as skilled or maybe even more skilled.

You think any top 100 guild who raids 5 days a week could have achieved the same thing if they raided as much as we have?
Keep in mind that we have not raided more than 2~4 evenings from 19:30->2400 for 2 weeks already. And most of that is discussing due to 30 attempts!

I am claiming that there are even guilds that in total would need less pulls/wipes on any given boss than you need. And then you can claim they will use tactics from your videos etc, but that's just bullshit. As if people can not think for themselves (which showed in the difference in strategies as seen in the videos that are out already).

[Dawnrage]

I never said that those games are not 'harder' than WoW. Of course when you are playing against other humans it will be harder. Let me put it in a different way then so that I can make my point clearer.
Say you have player A, who started playing LoL/CS 1 year ago and has personal skill 100. Then you have player B, who started playing LoL/CS 5 years ago and has personal skill 90. Assuming both players play the same amount of time every day, is there any doubt in your mind that player B is going to beat player A?

Another example: player A and B both start playing LoL/CS 1 year ago. Player A has personal skill 100, and player B has personal skill 90. Player A plays 2 days a week, and player B plays 6 days a week. Of course player B is going to beat player A. Who is the better player tho? In my mind, it is player B.

I don't think that's fair though. You can have naturally good twitch or reflexes but play a game like LoL or SC2 and not do well simply because you do not know the game well. What do you define as "personal skill"? I don't think it's possible for someone to have a personal skill that is high when they rarely touch a game. I believe that skill comes from time spent on the game, so those examples don't work at all.

The edge most players have doesn't come down to pure skill in games like LoL or CS either - sure there's the offchance of a play that leaves you at the edge of your seat in high end games, but most of the time, the team that wins games is just the team that plays better together. My only argument is that the skill cap in those games are way higher than WoW.

[TooMuch]

Another example: player A and B both start playing LoL/CS 1 year ago. Player A has personal skill 100, and player B has personal skill 90. Player A plays 2 days a week, and player B plays 6 days a week. Of course player B is going to beat player A. Who is the better player tho? In my mind, it is player B.

Strange, here you just say the same thing I am saying all the time: time invested > skill.

[SolHeiM]

I won't repeat what I said before, but it seems you guys can't even read. Or understand what's being said. You come up with different things all the time, while I just claim that's not skill that gets you a WF, but the time invested. And the reason you have only a few guilds "competing" is because people do NOT want to spend the same amount of time, even though they are as skilled or maybe even more skilled.



I am claiming that there are even guilds that in total would need less pulls/wipes on any given boss than you need. And then you can claim they will use tactics from your videos etc, but that's just bullshit. As if people can not think for themselves (which showed in the difference in strategies as seen in the videos that are out already).

I don't really understand what you are on about. They beat the guilds that are spending as much time, if not more time than they are because they have players who are better, thus making the race a matter of skill. How you can't grasp that concept is mind-blowing to me.

A guild that has fewer pulls may spend even more time than Method deliberating strategy, so pulls to kill doesn't count for anything. Most guilds do just blindly copy strategies from other guilds. I've been in guilds like that myself, and the most common thing is the "raid leader" links people a video, tells them to watch it, and then we would go from there.

[Frah]

I never said that those games are not 'harder' than WoW. Of course when you are playing against other humans it will be harder. Let me put it in a different way then so that I can make my point clearer.
Say you have player A, who started playing LoL/CS 1 year ago and has personal skill 100. Then you have player B, who started playing LoL/CS 5 years ago and has personal skill 90. Assuming both players play the same amount of time every day, is there any doubt in your mind that player B is going to beat player A?

Another example: player A and B both start playing LoL/CS 1 year ago. Player A has personal skill 100, and player B has personal skill 90. Player A plays 2 days a week, and player B plays 6 days a week. Of course player B is going to beat player A. Who is the better player tho? In my mind, it is player B.

top guilds in wow are playing against other players. They just have no interactions with them.

Saying wow pve race is not against other humans is like saying 100m runners dont run against other humans.

[Justwait]

top guilds in wow are playing against other players. They just have no interactions with them.

Saying wow pve race is not against other humans is like saying 100m runners dont run against other humans.

That's not what Dawnrage meant, you compete against other humans - yes. But you do not fight them directly in combat which affects the outcome.

[Deleted]

I won't repeat what I said before, but it seems you guys can't even read. Or understand what's being said. You come up with different things all the time, while I just claim that's not skill that gets you a WF, but the time invested. And the reason you have only a few guilds "competing" is because people do NOT want to spend the same amount of time, even though they are as skilled or maybe even more skilled.

So following your thinking process, they are the best because they spend more time playing, and it is pointless to compare them with any other guild in the world if said guild would be investing the same amount of time playing (which it actually does) because if it would then it wouldn't be there?

I am claiming that there are even guilds that in total would need less pulls/wipes on any given boss than you need. And then you can claim they will use tactics from your videos etc, but that's just bullshit. As if people can not think for themselves (which showed in the difference in strategies as seen in the videos that are out already).

Guild A kills boss X the 15th of April after 200 wipes. Guild B kills boss X the 15th of May after 150 wipes. According to you, guild B is "the best", right?

Hmm.

Strange, here you just say the same thing I am saying all the time: time invested > skill.

Time invested *makes* skill.

[rogerbrown]

I won't repeat what I said before, but it seems you guys can't even read. Or understand what's being said. You come up with different things all the time, while I just claim that's not skill that gets you a WF, but the time invested. And the reason you have only a few guilds "competing" is because people do NOT want to spend the same amount of time, even though they are as skilled or maybe even more skilled.

I am probably the most skilled football player in the world, better than Ronaldo and Messi. Too bad I didn't devote my life to playing football and instead went to uni and played WoW... Get my point? What you are saying could apply to everything in life. A kid in Africa could be the best singer in the world. Too bad we will never know because the circumstances won't allow for him to shine. A kid that could be the best tennis player in the world but his parents forced him to study and go to university... what a shame, he couldn't INVEST THE TIME NEEDED to become the best. There are always a handful of people in the world who will devote their time/lives to become the best at something. That doesn't mean that others couldn't be just as good if they did the same.

I don't think that's fair though. You can have naturally good twitch or reflexes but play a game like LoL or SC2 and not do well simply because you do not know the game well. What do you define as "personal skill"? I don't think it's possible for someone to have a personal skill that is high when they rarely touch a game. I believe that skill comes from time spent on the game, so those examples don't work at all.

You just repeated what I said. You say me examples don't work, but you just proved they do. Read my previous post to the one you quoted and you will understand.

Strange, here you just say the same thing I am saying all the time: time invested > skill.

Yes, of course, I agree with what you say. I am saying that it applies to EVERYTHING in life.


edit: Time invested is a NECESSITY to achieve anything and be the best at it. If you have that, then you move on to the personal skill, which affects the last 10-20% of the outcome.

[Deleted]

I am claiming that there are even guilds that in total would need less pulls/wipes on any given boss than you need. And then you can claim they will use tactics from your videos etc, but that's just bullshit. As if people can not think for themselves (which showed in the difference in strategies as seen in the videos that are out already).

This just shows how ignorant you are, Method throw themself at the encounters with way less gear than the guilds that you are refering to that can do it in less attempts. If Method had good gear and a video with a working strategy, they would probably almost oneshot every encounter.