1. #3961
    Curious as to where/if Ra-den will fall into these lists. Glad to see hes put up a challenge thus far.

  2. #3962
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    if you're thinking it like that, then HC LK should be above Lei-shen on the list


    Heres my list

    HC LK
    HC Al'Akir
    HC Lei-shen
    HC Rag
    Yogg+0
    Paragon didn't even attempt Yogg0 until after Stars had killed it. Because of the Exodus shenanigans, Stars dumped their entire strat minutes after their kill. The vast majority of the fight's difficulty during progression was figuring out a strategy to handle the final phase, and you got handed a strategy that you had the raid comp to execute.

    Had Stars never released their strategy, I bet there would have only been ~6 guilds worldwide with a kill pre-nerf; Stars, Premonition, Ensidia, Irae AoD, Paragon, and Method (in no particular order). Just look at the stats, it wasn't killed until a month after Algalon, and there were a whopping 12 guilds with a kill a month later when it was nerfed.

    I just think Yogg0 is deserving of more credit, but the experience was somewhat tainted because of Stars and their little guide on how to kill it. When compared against LK/Rag/Al'akir (I quit before MoP), I'd say that the difficulty felt more like Yogg0 > Rag > LK. I won't talk about Al'akir because that fight was a mess, and it was fixed/nerfed right as it was starting to become the only boss left to progress on in 25man, so there isn't much perspective about it other than yours.

    /2c
    Last edited by amaka; 2013-04-10 at 05:48 AM.

  3. #3963
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    obviously pre-nerf, and thats why i said its my list.
    first 20% must have been very difficult for you

  4. #3964
    Quote Originally Posted by rogerbrown View Post
    first 20% must have been very difficult for you
    i loved the p1 training


    edit: this forum is a mess,dafuck

    Quote Originally Posted by amaka View Post
    Paragon didn't even attempt Yogg0 until after Stars had killed it. Because of the Exodus shenanigans, Stars dumped their entire strat minutes after their kill. The vast majority of the fight's difficulty during progression was figuring out a strategy to handle the final phase, and you got handed a strategy that you had the raid comp to execute.

    Had Stars never released their strategy, I bet there would have only been ~6 guilds worldwide with a kill pre-nerf; Stars, Premonition, Ensidia, Irae AoD, Paragon, and Method (in no particular order). Just look at the stats, it wasn't killed until a month after Algalon, and there were a whopping 12 guilds with a kill a month later when it was nerfed.
    Actually we had been on yogg0 for a while before stars killed it, their strat was awfull and based on pure rng when compared to ours (i doubt any guild other than stars themselves killed the boss with that strat)

    and the fact that the boss lived as long as it did is possibly because so many people frm the top guilds said its mathematically impossible
    Last edited by lappee; 2013-04-10 at 06:14 AM.

  5. #3965
    Quote Originally Posted by amaka View Post
    Paragon didn't even attempt Yogg0 until after Stars had killed it. Because of the Exodus shenanigans, Stars dumped their entire strat minutes after their kill. The vast majority of the fight's difficulty during progression was figuring out a strategy to handle the final phase, and you got handed a strategy that you had the raid comp to execute.

    Had Stars never released their strategy, I bet there would have only been ~6 guilds worldwide with a kill pre-nerf; Stars, Premonition, Ensidia, Irae AoD, Paragon, and Method (in no particular order). Just look at the stats, it wasn't killed until a month after Algalon, and there were a whopping 12 guilds with a kill a month later when it was nerfed.

    I just think Yogg0 is deserving of more credit, but the experience was somewhat tainted because of Stars and their little guide on how to kill it. When compared against LK/Rag/Al'akir (I quit before MoP), I'd say that the difficulty felt more like Yogg0 > Rag > LK. I won't talk about Al'akir because that fight was a mess, and it was fixed/nerfed right as it was starting to become the only boss left to progress on in 25man, so there isn't much perspective about it other than yours.

    /2c
    As Lapp already pointed out, you're very wrong. The STARS 'guide' really didn't tell anyone anything we did't already know, except where their damage was coming from. Until the point, the proliferation of beam damage (Mind Flay in particular) hadn't really been considered as the primary source of boss damage. Couple that with the inability to properly target 3-5 marked adds in a crowd of 20+ (Mods weren't created for it then), and that's where the brunt of the difficulty laid.

    All the STARS guide really made you think about was "Do we use 5 hunters, or do we use off-tank capable DPS?"

  6. #3966
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    if you're thinking it like that, then HC LK should be above Lei-shen on the list


    Heres my list

    HC LK
    HC Al'Akir
    HC Lei-shen
    HC Rag
    Yogg+0
    HLK having limited attempts was a very big reason as to the gap between kills. If Lei Shen had 25-50 pulls a week, it would have been up for over a month.

    Edit: I think HLK was one of the best and most epic fights of all time, don't get me wrong. I just think that the limited attempts had a lot to due with its allure and legacy.

    Edit2: Al'akir? rofl wtf. If you would elaborate on that one, I would be very interested to know why you have that on your top 5
    Last edited by rigginsbear; 2013-04-10 at 07:06 AM.

  7. #3967
    Quote Originally Posted by rigginsbear View Post
    HLK having limited attempts was a very big reason as to the gap between kills. If Lei Shen had 25-50 pulls a week, it would have been up for over a month.
    if lei-shen had a cap of 50 pulls per week like LK HC did, i still think it would've fallen in the same time as it did now (atleast for us). all pull limits do is remove the headless "ok lets just pull" tries and "hey, lets try this weird shit tactic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rigginsbear View Post
    Edit2: Al'akir? rofl wtf. If you would elaborate on that one, I would be very interested to know why you have that on your top 5
    Did you ever pull pre-nerf al'akir for real? if you did, then you should understand

  8. #3968
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Did you ever pull pre-nerf al'akir for real? if you did, then you should understand
    This cannot end well... Were did I put my popcorn... Ah, there it is.

    Please, don't mind me, continue.

    Warning: Bit of a spam comment here, add to the conversation instead of trying to entice people with a bait attempt. -Azshira.
    Last edited by Azshira; 2013-04-10 at 08:35 AM.

  9. #3969
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    Quote Originally Posted by rigginsbear View Post
    Edit2: Al'akir? rofl wtf. If you would elaborate on that one, I would be very interested to know why you have that on your top 5
    Because Al'akir before they changed him was goddamn awful for 25man with the space provided and the mechanics, phase 1 to be much more precise. Search for Paragon's first kill of Al'akir and you'll see they had a chunk of their raid not even fighting the encounter for the first phase because of the incredibly hardness of the encounter with more people on the platform.

  10. #3970
    Sorry, it was a tentative of disarming the tension with humour, wasn't thinking it could be read at the opposite. My bad.

    On topic A'lakir prenerf was not designed for 25man. At least it seems due to the placement required

  11. #3971
    Deleted
    The fact is none actually cared about Al'akir. Paragon beat everyone by miles on Neffy who was supposed to be the hardest boss among the three, and the race was still on Sinestra. Al'akir was the hardest boss of the tier in its original design, but everyone was focusing the attention elsewhere because nobody got time to spend on such a strange/difficult/insane/stupid (choose one) boss.

  12. #3972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potentio View Post
    Yet it took them 50% less time to kill it than Ragnaros. Maybe they say it because their rank is better this time around?
    It prob has more to do with the rediculous amount of hours that the top guilds are putting in these days... 16 hour days are not out of the norm when working towards a US/EU/World first these days.

  13. #3973
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    It prob has more to do with the rediculous amount of hours that the top guilds are putting in these days... 16 hour days are not out of the norm when working towards a US/EU/World first these days.
    I agree that this is one of the factors. To my knowledge guilds did not put in such hours back then.

  14. #3974
    Quote Originally Posted by Azshira View Post
    I agree that this is one of the factors. To my knowledge guilds did not put in such hours back then.
    I'm pretty sure I've put in as much raiding as we did back since Ulduar at least. So that's not really something you can say.
    The longer progress lasts, the less time we spend a day raiding (or well, it stops going down once we`re at evening raids).
    Ulduar and T11 both took long. And then you had ICC which had limited attempts limiting the time you can spend raiding.

  15. #3975
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    if lei-shen had a cap of 50 pulls per week like LK HC did, i still think it would've fallen in the same time as it did now (atleast for us). all pull limits do is remove the headless "ok lets just pull" tries and "hey, lets try this weird shit tactic"

    are you suggesting that Ra'den deserves a place on that top5 list seeing as how he is still not defeated?

  16. #3976
    Deleted
    gratz to envy!

    off topic: Does envy still have some players from Ensidia?

  17. #3977
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    are you suggesting that Ra'den deserves a place on that top5 list seeing as how he is still not defeated?
    In what world did he suggest that? Maybe you should read it through again

  18. #3978
    Quote Originally Posted by Dranged View Post
    are you suggesting that Ra'den deserves a place on that top5 list seeing as how he is still not defeated?
    Even if Ultraxion had required full BiS to meet the dps requirement, it wouldn't have been in the list, I guess.
    Same goes for C'thun, that almost nobody put in this kind of list even if he remained undefeated a very long time.

    It's hard to give a proper definition of difficulty in wow since the difficulty is always related to gear but you don't want "difficult" to mean "gear check".

    Anyway, the fact that a boss takes more or less try and/or more or less time does not mean it will figure on these "unforgottable bosses" list.

  19. #3979
    Quote Originally Posted by yinn View Post
    In what world did he suggest that? Maybe you should read it through again
    Because Lappe is saying that limited attempts have little impact on the lifespan of a boss, meaning that Ra-den has survived longer than Lei Shen and Ragnaros due to his difficulty and not due to the limited attempts.

  20. #3980
    Deleted
    I don't know what Lappe personally thinks of Ra'den, but just because a boss has a longer lifespan doesn't mean it's a welldesigned and enjoyable boss, afaik people that are on it find it buggy, boring and that gear will help out A LOT, Sejtas comment about the legendary backs for example.

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