My gripe as a fresh 90 trying to raid.

[Synstir]

Their is no correlation and thus no contradiction. In attempt to give you "things to do" they left me with nothing that is rewarding enough that I can accomplish in a reasonable time fame.

This I agree with!
I think the balance between time spend and rewards is very much off at the moment.

But I understand this is a matter of perception.
A player who has the time and spends 8 hours a day playing wow, will think differently about time spend and rewards than a player who has 2 hours a day and a player who has only a few hours per week, will think different again.

If I play 3 hours a week and some other player plays 9 hours a day, the progression he makes in 1 day equals 3 weeks irl for me.
His feelings about the rewards he got will be totally different than my feelings about it.
There is not much we can do about that..... I just see that in discussions on this forum, players don't keep that in mind.

[jbombard]

This I agree with!
I think the balance between time spend and rewards is very much off at the moment.

I also agree with this very much.

[Leonard McCoy]

Nooo! :O
I gotta disagree - I want people to spend some time playing the class instead of rushing for the gear while their ability to play the class are abyssmal. I'd rather get an undergeared dude with skill than clueless geared player any time of the day.

None of the current activities tied to rep or valor challenge players enough to really learn their class. some guy half assing his way through lfr for rep or dailies for rep will not learn how to play his class that way. That kind of learning doesn't happen through daily questing. IMO the best way to learn is to pvp but yea in any case dailies don't do that. It's debatable wether or not lfr does, likely not.

---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 08:32 AM ----------

but changing valor impacts progression. Epics from previous patches = jp. I mean as an expansion hits, its all about mains. Alts get addressed in patches.

Why would it impact progression if it was last tiers crap? It wouldn't impact CURRENT progression very much but it would invalidate their scheme to make raids tiered again. I'm okay with that. I don't particularly think theirs any good reason we should back to tiered progression.

[Leonard McCoy]

This I agree with!
I think the balance between time spend and rewards is very much off at the moment.

But I understand this is a matter of perception.
A player who has the time and spends 8 hours a day playing wow, will think differently about time spend and rewards than a player who has 2 hours a day and a player who has only a few hours per week, will think different again.

If I play 3 hours a week and some other player plays 9 hours a day, the progression he makes in 1 day equals 3 weeks irl for me.
His feelings about the rewards he got will be totally different than my feelings about it.
There is not much we can do about that..... I just see that in discussions on this forum, players don't keep that in mind.

I think players very much do keep it in mind. Players in the world don't exist in a vacuum.

[Sevenfold]

Remove the rep requirement from all gear or at the very least last tiers valor gear vendor. I would prefer all but if their serious about catch then simple remove the rep requirement.
Increase valor gains.
Increase valor cap.[COLOR="red"]

Removing the rep requirement is an idea we can probably agree on.
Increasing valor gains seems like you're just asking for more reward and less work. I seem to remember you complaining earlier about people who just want the cheese at the end of the maze.
Increasing the valor cap seems like it would be irrelevant to someone like yourself who is so busy and has such limited time. If you have enough time to valor cap every week then I'll have to question how limited your time really is.

Theirs no contradiction in that at all. The only contradiction is in your head. My time is no more or less valubale then yours but it is potentially more limited. My 15 bucks is no more or less worth it then yours. However since you potentially have more time to play this game then you get more out of your 15 bucks that I do. Their IS ZERO contradiction in it. Just because my time is limited, it doesn't mean the reward I should get should also be limited by it. Their is no correlation and thus no contradiction. In attempt to give you "things to do" they left me with nothing that is rewarding enough that I can accomplish in a reasonable time fame.

Well now I'm really confused. You previously insisted that you wanted to be rewarded for your time, now it really sounds like you want to be rewarded for your money. We pay the same monthly fee and we're given the same opportunities. Some people have more time to take advantage of those opportunities than others. That's not a problem unless you're someone who feels entitled to equal rewards for less work.

[Synstir]

I think players very much do keep it in mind. Players in the world don't exist in a vacuum.

Well I see quite some arguments of which I think my statement is the cause.
Players very fast saying: if you want more rewards, play more.
Players throwing around: you want epics handed to for free?
Players calling others lazy..... these arguments, I think, originates from the the difference in time to spend in wow.

I mean, I read a thread here in mmo-c from some players asking on the forum if he should introduce his kid to wow, so he could spend more time with his kid.
I mean, what do you think if you read this sentence? A father introducing his kid to wow, just to spend more time with that kid? He could have thought of other ways, didn't he?
He could have thought of things his kid like to do and do those with the kid.... that is what I think anyways, as I have 2 kids. I never thought of introducing my kids to things I do just to spend time with them... I do the things they do and enjoy to spend time with them. If they wanna do something I am doing... sure no problem.

When I read these kind of things, I just wonder............

[jbombard]

Removing the rep requirement is an idea we can probably agree on.
Increasing valor gains seems like you're just asking for more reward and less work. I seem to remember you complaining earlier about people who just want the cheese at the end of the maze.
Increasing the valor cap seems like it would be irrelevant to someone like yourself who is so busy and has such limited time. If you have enough time to valor cap every week then I'll have to question how limited your time really is.

Personally I think valor should only come from raiding. But you should be able to cap doing 10 bosses a week(any difficulty). You don't even come close now. I always thought valor gear was to compensate for crappy luck, not provide a means to gear up without ever entering a raid.

[Prokne]

The ICC heroics dropped ilvl 232 gear, which was the same as the tier previous to ICC (ToC 10man dropped 232). 232 was more than enough for ICC normals starting out. ToC 5man heroic dropped ilvl 219 which was the same as 10man normal Ulduar excepting hard modes etc. Cata repeated this model.

Difference was there was no LFR to fill in item gaps, and to prevent the problems of BC in gearing up new players/alts etc for raiding guilds the heroics were tuned higher. LFR allows people to gear up decently over time.

Problem is everyone seems to think you need a much higher ilvl of gear than you really do for a specific tier, such as asking for 200+ ilvl to do Naxx 10man in Wrath and 390+ for DS

232 was Ulduar gear level(well 226 but weapons were 232), 10 mans really didnt count. To get into 25 man ICC you needed 245 gear and most people pugging 10man ICC had 25man gear from their guild raids so they werent taking any 232 geared 10man TotC people.

T8 was a huge gear reset anyway and you could buy full 10 man T8 with badges and do ToTC 25 in Naxx gear and 5 man gear from ToC. You could also buy full T10 10man with badges(and had to to upgrade to 25 and heroic).

[Leonard McCoy]

Removing the rep requirement is an idea we can probably agree on.
Increasing valor gains seems like you're just asking for more reward and less work. I seem to remember you complaining earlier about people who just want the cheese at the end of the maze.
Increasing the valor cap seems like it would be irrelevant to someone like yourself who is so busy and has such limited time. If you have enough time to valor cap every week then I'll have to question how limited your time really is.



Well now I'm really confused. You previously insisted that you wanted to be rewarded for your time, now it really sounds like you want to be rewarded for your money. We pay the same monthly fee and we're given the same opportunities. Some people have more time to take advantage of those opportunities than others. That's not a problem unless you're someone who feels entitled to equal rewards for less work.

Your confusion is unecessary. Time or money isn't the issue. I want to log into the game and be rewarded when I play it. Currently I am not. Not at a rate sufficient to continue playing this game. I don't feel entiteled to equal rewards for less work, I feel that the rewards require to much work. In fact you can go ahead and call me entitled because I'm so tired of this retarded argument from the player base. Just get it over with. While your at it send me a social security check.

Increasing the valor gains means Im more likely to cap out each week. More reward for less work is accurate. I acknowledge I want the cheese, other players don't.
Increasing the valor cap only makes sense if you increase the valor gain.

[Deleted]

I got back ingame 3 week's before 5.2 and now i sit on 482 ilvl which is good enough for hof /toes because that's where most of guilds stay.
I only got 2 reputations to revered which are golden lotus and klaxxi, but klaxxi items are useless for me now.
soo let's say you have 463.
Get 522 neck from isle of thunder quartermaster.
Get few lfr items. (in a week you should get at least 2 items) in the last week i got 4 just because the loot drop improvement.
and you should have 470 ilvl.
Now you either farm some rep. or start doing MSV.
Just start your own pug if you can't find a guild or a pug, msv is easy now, heck i cleared it at 460 with some other guys with 480 ilvl.
Gearing aint hard right now, it just requires few weeks

[Xzan]

None of the current activities tied to rep or valor challenge players enough to really learn their class. some guy half assing his way through lfr for rep or dailies for rep will not learn how to play his class that way. That kind of learning doesn't happen through daily questing. IMO the best way to learn is to pvp but yea in any case dailies don't do that. It's debatable wether or not lfr does, likely not.

That's actually not true. Even in the LFR you can get an idea of how the encounter roughly works if you give it at least a small thought. Same goes to learning the class. LFR being easy is an excellent place for new players to experiment with their playstyle and get properly used to it. Mastered playstyle is something you already need to have in normal raids.

Of course we could argue and I won't deny the fact that there undoubtedly are players that just don't ever get better no matter how much time they spend playing their class. But judging by my own experience and practices, the more time I spend on the class, the better results I get (talking about skill only, not gear).

And of course I agree on the PvP part. That truly is the best way to learn the class as other players push you to your limits, not just scripted raid encounters.
As I often say - a decent PvPer can jump into PvE and have very solid performance. Which I've never seen work the other way around.

[Charge me Doctor]

Well I see quite some arguments of which I think my statement is the cause.
Players very fast saying: if you want more rewards, play more.
Players throwing around: you want epics handed to for free?
Players calling others lazy..... these arguments, I think, originates from the the difference in time to spend in wow.

I mean, I read a thread here in mmo-c from some players asking on the forum if he should introduce his kid to wow, so he could spend more time with his kid.
I mean, what do you think if you read this sentence? A father introducing his kid to wow, just to spend more time with that kid? He could have thought of other ways, didn't he?
He could have thought of things his kid like to do and do those with the kid.... that is what I think anyways, as I have 2 kids. I never thought of introducing my kids to things I do just to spend time with them... I do the things they do and enjoy to spend time with them. If they wanna do something I am doing... sure no problem.

When I read these kind of things, I just wonder............

This game consumes too much time then, you have to choose what are you want to do more. If you can't spend enough time to get rewards from a game, you don't play a game (you don't play a game which loads for 20 minutes if you have only 30 minutes of spare time), and complaining that game is not rewarding (really it is rewarding if you spend more time) will not help you. You either find more time to play, or don't play at all.

And on topic of that parent: this is what you get when kid becomes a father, he is not ready to it

[HardCoder]

Because that's how difficult works in games. Imagine it like you complete level on easy, now you need to do it on normal, when you finish it on normal, you will only have hard to finish. You can start new toon and level+gear him up to 463 again, but it is not that satisfying to do it over and over again

There's very little in this game that's "difficult."

There's a whole lot that's sickeningly tedious.

I understand it's difficult to balance reward, difficulty, and tedium, but I think they should be better at by now than they are.

[jbombard]

That's actually not true. Even in the LFR you can get an idea of how the encounter roughly works if you give it at least a small thought. Same goes to learning the class. LFR being easy is an excellent place for new players to experiment with their playstyle and get properly used to it. Mastered playstyle is something you already need to have in normal raids.

Of course we could argue and I won't deny the fact that there undoubtedly are players that just don't ever get better no matter how much time they spend playing their class. But judging by my own experience and practices, the more time I spend on the class, the better results I get (talking about skill only, not gear).

And of course I agree on the PvP part. That truly is the best way to learn the class as other players push you to your limits, not just scripted raid encounters.
As I often say - a decent PvPer can jump into PvE and have very solid performance. Which I've never seen work the other way around.

I agree. You can ignore the encounter if LFR if you want to. But you can also pay attention and try to improve yourself if you want to. What you get out of depends on how much you put into it, and you are never going to be able to get players that have no desire to improve to play better regardless of what tools you give them.

[Charge me Doctor]

There's very little in this game that's "difficult."

There's a whole lot that's sickeningly tedious.

I understand it's difficult to balance reward, difficulty, and tedium, but I think they should be better at by now than they are.

I wanted to point at better rewards requires more time/skill to spend on, if you don't have time, you won't get them. If you can't afford this game a normal amount of time (i.e. spending at least 3 hours per week to find a raid spot or assemble pug) you won't get normal amount of reward. If you can't afford normal amount of time and you don't enjoy easy reward (full blues for example) then you don't play a game, lower your expectations or increase amount of time you can spend in a game

[Prokne]

How to gear the fastest; a guide by some random guy on the internet

Step 1; do heroics
Step 2; convert Justice to Honor
Step 3; Buy 476 gear instead of 458
Step 4; Repeat 1-3 untill you no longer feel like it / have full gear
Step 5; Do LFR

I went to check because I thought they werent going to upgrade the PvP gear as much but they did. I bought a bunch of 458 PvP gear in 5.0(honor gear was 450) because it was the fastest way to higher ilvl. No you get more jp from dungeons and even better hp gear. In the next tier it wil be an even greater jump - run 5.0 heroics for jp, convert, buy 488 gear, go LFR with huge drop rate, use VP for 522 gear or new raid VP gear, do some dailies and buy crafted 522 gear, win. It will probably take about 2 weeks to get decent gear for T16 normals which is still pretty fast considering it could take months in BC to move up tiers.

[Leonard McCoy]

This game consumes too much time then, you have to choose what are you want to do more. If you can't spend enough time to get rewards from a game, you don't play a game (you don't play a game which loads for 20 minutes if you have only 30 minutes of spare time), and complaining that game is not rewarding (really it is rewarding if you spend more time) will not help you. You either find more time to play, or don't play at all.

And on topic of that parent: this is what you get when kid becomes a father, he is not ready to it

Actually complaining about it is exactly what you do. If your not happy with it why would you continue to play? Why wouldn't you voice your objection in the hope that the developers iwll consider your point of view?

[HardCoder]

I wanted to point at better rewards requires more time/skill to spend on, if you don't have time, you won't get them. If you can't afford this game a normal amount of time (i.e. spending at least 3 hours per week to find a raid spot or assemble pug) you won't get normal amount of reward. If you can't afford normal amount of time and you don't enjoy easy reward (full blues for example) then you don't play a game, lower your expectations or increase amount of time you can spend in a game

Well, I would like the time I spend playing the game to be enjoyable.

Do you see what the problem is when a game is time-consuming, but not enjoyable?

[Synstir]

This game consumes too much time then, you have to choose what are you want to do more. If you can't spend enough time to get rewards from a game, you don't play a game (you don't play a game which loads for 20 minutes if you have only 30 minutes of spare time), and complaining that game is not rewarding (really it is rewarding if you spend more time) will not help you. You either find more time to play, or don't play at all.

And on topic of that parent: this is what you get when kid becomes a father, he is not ready to it

It is not about stopping to play when the game is not rewarding in a certain timeframe........ the issue is something else for a lot of players.
You see a lot of players started in WotLK, went through Cata and are now in MoP.
Wotlk opened gates for players to progress their chars where they wheren't earlier to progress; it opened the gates to level alts and gear them.
Cata took this even a little further.

So a lot of players where attracted to wow, as subs where at a all time high during wotlk. Cata did loose subs because of the difficulty-level of the dungeons. Patch 4.3 changed that back to WotLK difficulty and the losses stopped. Blizzard maintained the diff. lvl in MoP but now brought something else, grind. And In my opinion too much of it.

The thing is if you have 2 expansions, 4 years of gameplay, in which progression is quite achieveble for casual players, even for players with not time to play and you turn that around, what will happen? What will it do to a player who could maintain 5 chars at the highest level of gear, who is struggeling to get only 1 char to the highest level of gear in MoP?

What will happen to you if you are fed with the best of foods and drinks for years... and suddenly, without any real announcement, you are only getting bread and water? What will you do then?

The main issue is not to say to someone, just spend more time or be satisfied with less to no rewards! That won't cut it.
These kind of changes should come slow... in that way we can get used to it. This was just to fast..... it seems (to me anyway) as if they turned 180 degrees without warning.

[Charge me Doctor]

It is not about stopping to play when the game is not rewarding in a certain timeframe........ the issue is something else for a lot of players.
You see a lot of players started in WotLK, went through Cata and are now in MoP.
Wotlk opened gates for players to progress their chars where they wheren't earlier to progress; it opened the gates to level alts and gear them.
Cata took this even a little further.

So a lot of players where attracted to wow, as subs where at a all time high during wotlk. Cata did loose subs because of the difficulty-level of the dungeons. Patch 4.3 changed that back to WotLK difficulty and the losses stopped. Blizzard maintained the diff. lvl in MoP but now brought something else, grind. And In my opinion too much of it.

The thing is if you have 2 expansions, 4 years of gameplay, in which progression is quite achieveble for casual players, even for players with not time to play and you turn that around, what will happen? What will it do to a player who could maintain 5 chars at the highest level of gear, who is struggeling to get only 1 char to the highest level of gear in MoP?

What will happen to you if you are fed with the best of foods and drinks for years... and suddenly, without any real announcement, you are only getting bread and water? What will you do then?

The main issue is not to say to someone, just spend more time or be satisfied with less to no rewards! That won't cut it.
These kind of changes should come slow... in that way we can get used to it. This was just to fast..... it seems (to me anyway) as if they turned 180 degrees without warning.

Well, at least people who yelled that "wow is too easy" now remains silent. But i can agree with you, in classic/bc i had only 1 "main" character , but in wotlk i had almost 6 equally geared characters. Now i stand on one full blue and two 490 geared characters.
A gap between gear on "main" and "alt" is huge now, but i always thought it was ok.

And if you compare 5.0 daily quests to 5.2, you can see huge improvement, daily quests requires much less time to complete (especially with group)