My issue with Blizzards new "gearing through LFR" game design.

[zimzum2523]

I don't mind the current system on my main but for alts it is terrible. I can imagine it is just as bad for people that came late to the xpac. Over the last few years I have become accustomed to playing multiple toon and really enjoyed it now just playing the main while the alts just rot has become really stale.

[shutupmegg]

I agree with the OP. I am having a huge issue with finding a guild to raid normal MSV with and my servers PUGS are requesting 480+ plus norm achieve to take you along. I reached 90 in February as I had to quit the game soon after release due to irl issues. As a result, I've been attempting to gear for about a month and have only gotten five drops from lfr, four of which were of the same off hand which has worse stats than the crafted fan I bought off the AH.

I am currently sitting at 473 and will be purchasing the 522 neck tomorrow. My biggest issue is the inbuilt restrictions on being rewarded for the time invested. The restrictions on valor caps has always been a mechanism by Blizzard to bottleneck gearing quickly, and to keep us subscribed for longer. I have zero problem capping valor for a week and so I am left with after Tuesday is grinding dailies with the reward of valor that goes to waste.

If Blizz increased the valor cap to 4000 or allowed 5.0 gear to be purchased with justice as well as allowing earlier LFR to be farmed for gear then I would have no issue with this design. As it currently stands, I have nothing to do outside of grinding dailies and continually alt tabbing out to recruitment forums/reading trade to see if anyone is recruiting for norm MSV.

People want to raid current content and whilst I understand the want and desire to ensure people see previous tier raids, force it upon people, but make the rewards for doing so better.

However, I didn't know open raid existed until this thread so ill be checking it out to see if I can get myself into a pug.

[zshikara]

Personally, I prefer the new way of gearing because, like BC, it means old tiers of content will never become outdated until the next expansion launches.

In BC you had to start with kara, even months after BT opened up. Well, if your guild was good enough you could skip kara, but you get my point I hope. In contrast, by the time ICC came out noone did Naxx anymore except for achievement runs. This was really really bad, and Naxx should have never went out of relevancy while the level cap was still 80. Now, at 90, MSV will remain relevant for any new character starting to do end game stuff all the way till whatever next expansion gets released. I find this to be a very good thing. Even new players will get to experience content as it was meant to be experienced. LFR is one of the best things that has happened to wow.

[Mordredofmia]

Yes, it is slower. Yes, I get that some people don't like that. But in my opinion it is better this way than the situation we were in with Wrath/Cata where someone could skip the entire expansion, come in during the last patch, and be raiding current content within a day of reaching level cap. Catch-up mechanics are fine and even necessary. Instant catch-up mechanics hurt the game.

Obviously the opposite is actually what is true. Since Wrath gearing has become slower, more gated, less interesting, and more of a grind. Since Wrath, the subscription numbers have also fallen lower, and lower. So, the move to make this game more and more grindy is costing more players then were gained when LFD and "free epics" the fragile egos club whined about.

Wrath had the vastly superior progression model. I would not have played this game as long as i did if when I reached level 80 they told me I had to run something as boring as LFR every week, week after week, once a week, before I could join them in playing current content. It's absolutely ridiculous. How could anyone at all find this fun? And even if you do, why must you force me to go through it as well? I had a progression model that made the game actually fun for me. Now I have this, which I don't even want to log on, there isn't any content besides LFR and crappy dailies? This expansion is really really turning out to have been a waste of money.

Also adding new dungeons doesn't instantly cause burn out on those new dungeons, being able to queue for ZA/ZG independent of the other random heroics made people burn out on them. This is another case of the Wrath model being vastly superior. You could only queue for the ICC 5-mans specifically once a day. Once for each dungeon. Other then that, you had to chain heroics which also provided justice which let you build up an off-spec set quickly. Now with LFR as the singular progression model there is no such thing as off spec gear. Wonderful. Lets all celebrate how much better the game is with less options in gearing. It's so great to run LFR every week and not get gear and grind daily quests. This is really a wonderful game now that I can do dailies and go into LFR and hopefully die because it's so boring it puts me to sleep just to not get any gear with my one chance a week. Fantastic. Such an improvement because some people have pathetic egos. If you were such a badass at the game people getting gear on par with yours wouldn't have you quaking in your boots as much as it does. But you aren't. So you whine and cry because your "accomplishment" is bullshit and you know it. If it were actually something people being able to gear up, in gear that's good enough just to get INTO current raids mind you, not even in the same gear as you, wouldn't make so many of you shit yourselves with rage.

[/COLOR]

I don't have too much problem with the badge vendor style rewards, like mentioned, this was the go-to design starting with late BC and most of Wrath.

I just don't think players need to be skipping tiers completely (even if it's just doing LFR, sadly). The game only has so much to do, and as soon as you're just jumping over raids, you're selling yourself short as far as what content you are consuming.

But you truly feel like LFR is content? Because it doesn't feel like it at all to me. It feels like just paying dues, and that's retarded in a video game that is supposed to be fun. LFR isn't a challenge it isn't engaging it isn't fun. It's 25 people zerging down a boss who gets weaker the more they lose. How can you say this is content? How can you say "Yeah, all you players need to suffer through this garbage", what the hell man? Not doing a tier and doing it in LFR are the same thing. One just takes longer. So I get to NOT do the tier for weeks now. What the hell? How is that a fun game design?

Why is making players play through boring bad content so important to you guys? Serious question? Subs are down and dropping. You really think people going "Wow, they made it much more of a pain in the ass to do anything...I better resub and get this xpac!" is what is gonna happen?

[Synstir]

I thought, when they announced this, that LFR lockout would be broadened to more than just once/week.
Unfortunately they didn't.

[Time Sage]

You don't have to gear up in lfr, you can jump into normal mode of the last tier in herioc drops, then continue on to current tier. Its the communitu that says "only so current normals go do lfr to catch up"You donnt

[xanzul]

Did I say they were all different people? What my original comment replied to was the suggestion that people who disagree with Blizzard's decisions were one homogenous mass shifting their opinion just to be contrary against every design decision and "Blizzard can't win". To suggest otherwise would make you the fool.

And again I reiterate the fact that a lot of the people driving whatever the complaints are on the forums are in fact the same group of people for the most part. There is no denying it because as I said a cursory glance at post histories both here and on the official forums will reveal the serial whiners for who they are and the fact they will complain about something even if it contradicts what they complained about in the past. Now am I saying complaints on both sides are invalid? Nope. What I'm saying is pretending there isn't a driving force to always have unrest on the forums is doing nothing in creating an atmosphere where constructive criticism thrives and senseless whining gets put down from the start.

[Super Kami Dende]

You don't have to gear up in lfr, you can jump into normal mode of the last tier in herioc drops, then continue on to current tier. Its the communitu that says "only so current normals go do lfr to catch up"You donnt

For every person that says this, I urge you to go re-roll a character, go to a server where you know noone or do not have any guild affiliation. Now go get in full 463 dungeon blues and try App to guilds recruiting for current content.

Seriously it is not as "EASY" as you try to make it sound by saying "just go do normal modes!", Trust me I tried, many times just to be decline by many different guilds and pugs based entirely on my lack of Ilvl.

[xanzul]

I agree with the OP. Just hit 90 myself and I am already annoyed with the grind to get caught up. This thread also needs that leonardo guy, gets real tiring reading the same old fanboy circlejerk crap about how awesome and perfect this expansion is.

I know this may be shocking to hear but not mindlessly slamming everything about Mop doesn't make someone a fanboy. Gear progression is a system that is always going to be in a constant state of change and I don't think anyone here is vehemently opposed to change. What is at issue though are the claims that gearing is hard and takes too long and that alts suffer as a result. 5.2 is an improvement of gear progression from 5.1 and 5.0 and most certainly an improvement from the TBC model. Does that mean it shouldn't be refined even more? Nope. But there is a significant difference between improving gear progression in 5.2 and going back to what we had in 4.3. Why can't there be a balance between the two?

---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 06:26 AM ----------

I don't mind the current system on my main but for alts it is terrible. I can imagine it is just as bad for people that came late to the xpac. Over the last few years I have become accustomed to playing multiple toon and really enjoyed it now just playing the main while the alts just rot has become really stale.

The only legitimate issue with alts is that the divide between being a fresh 90 and getting past MV LFR needs to be a bit smoother. Otherwise for the most part it works rather well.

---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 06:29 AM ----------

I thought, when they announced this, that LFR lockout would be broadened to more than just once/week.
Unfortunately they didn't.

Why does the LFR lockout for tier 14 need to be changed? This is why we have elder charms and again please don't try to claim they are hard to get. My first time in the solo scenario I managed to get 8 elder charms even after derping like a moron and dying 3 different times and getting stunned way too often.

---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 06:31 AM ----------

For every person that says this, I urge you to go re-roll a character, go to a server where you know noone or do not have any guild affiliation. Now go get in full 463 dungeon blues and try App to guilds recruiting for current content.

Seriously it is not as "EASY" as you try to make it sound by saying "just go do normal modes!", Trust me I tried, many times just to be decline by many different guilds and pugs based entirely on my lack of Ilvl.

How many more times does openraid need to be mentioned to you? Screw guilds. Screw friends. Screw everything you think is barring you from progressing because openraid pretty much invalidates every single bit of that. Instead of pretending cross realm raiding for tier 14 doesn't exist why not advocate for cross realm raids for current content as well?

[Terridon]

The way they made lfr opening up this time means that you won't need lfr for anything, since you should progress at the same speed as lfr opens up.
There's a rather big jump in the ilvl from lfr to normal too (20-26), so you can also feel a lot better with that gear, if you like to.

Blizzard has said they don't like people to skip all the raids instantly when a new patch comes out, thus neglecting all their work on a raid-tier, which is what has happened so far.
It's a fair point i guess, but i would like some new instances(or revamped old ones, that require higher gear to complete). Wouldn't mind it just being bad drops. I still do the other instances when i'm bored, though i havn't needed anything for ages from there.

Think it's fair enough you can't have 10 toons with gear almost on par to dedicated raiders.

Last patch were annoying, since you could be unlucky in raid, and lfr-heroes would have better gear than you. That's really discouraging :P

[Super Kami Dende]

How many more times does openraid need to be mentioned to you? Screw guilds. Screw friends. Screw everything you think is barring you from progressing because openraid pretty much invalidates every single bit of that. Instead of pretending cross realm raiding for tier 14 doesn't exist why not advocate for cross realm raids for current content as well?

I tried Openraid, there were currently 0 open for my timezone, and waking up at 1am in the morning to raid on work days is a bit much.

[-Superman-]

i get that, i miss having alts raid ready, but then, as soon as you get your alts into LFR now (as in after 5.2) it wont take long before you are doing current content.

pre 5.2 drop rates were horrendous, but tbh, i knew this would happen, so i didn't bother doing any LFR on anything other than my main - i've got a paladin at 90, a mage and warrior both at 87 - i should be able to get all those alts geared through LFR in no time at all - although the biggest challenge now, is to get into LFR in the first place. (but with pvp gear having pve stats on it, you can buy almost enough gear to get into LFR anyways)

if your complaint was aimed at entry gear to get into LFR, i'd concur, but as for gearing through LFR post 5.2, it should be cake.

edit: also, it took me 3 months of LFR every week to get geared to ilvl 480 ready for ToT LFr this week, so i feel your pain. LFR droprates pre-5.2 were horrible, even with elder charms.

I would agree. I think if it was just passing out gear at the front door and letting anyone in, it would be an issue. But allowing folks without raid guilds or friends with premades a chance to "gear up" and experience content is not a bad thing. There are plenty of us casual players who like the ability to come and go as we please, even if we never get 522 gear. For us, it is more about seeing the content and occasionally getting some cool gear

[xanzul]

I tried Openraid, there were currently 0 open for my timezone, and waking up at 1am in the morning to raid on work days is a bit much.

Yeah I don't think you understand how openraid works but ok whatever. It is clear you aren't interested in solutions you just want to whine.

[SherbertLand]

Kind of hard to feel sympathy for you. Why should you get to skip to the most recent content when everyone else had to do 5.0 raids? It's not like those raids are not irrelevant. People are still running them and for that reason alone, a catchup mechanic isn't needed. If it took you a month to get 480 item level, you just weren't doing everything in your power to get that ilvl. With 5.2, we have increased lfr drops, easier normal raids, Galleon, a faction that offers 476 gear for gold, 476 gear for jp, Sha, and cheaper craftables.

You don't really have an excuse.

[Fullgore]

5.0-5.1 should be jsutice points buy able now

[Xorn]

My issue with it is the absurd rarity of Sha crystals. With new 5 man dungeons in Wrath and Cata it was easy to get the crystals needed for new enchants by simply running a few instances and DEing the gear. Now with no such option the only way is to hope you get lucky in LFR, or make one per day with the CD, making the weapon enchants will absurdly expensive to craft.

[SherbertLand]

My issue with it is the absurd rarity of Sha crystals. With new 5 man dungeons in Wrath and Cata it was easy to get the crystals needed for new enchants by simply running a few instances and DEing the gear. Now with no such option the only way is to hope you get lucky in LFR, or make one per day with the CD, making the weapon enchants will absurdly expensive to craft.

This isn't a thread about why you think Enchanters don't deserve money.

[Conscious]

This feels kinda out of place as it is well written and makes sense. My first instinct was to suggest posting it on the official forums, but I feel current Devs are way too entrenched in their mindset to be swayed by anything short of direct orders caused by relevant subscription losses.

As true as this is, OP really needs to post this on the official forums.

[Xorn]

This isn't a thread about why you think Enchanters don't deserve money.

I'm an enchanter. Thanks for your complete misinterpretation of my post though.

[SherbertLand]

I'm an enchanter. Thanks for your complete misinterpretation of my post though.

More sha crystals available = cheaper enchants. Why would you want that?