My issue with Blizzards new "gearing through LFR" game design.

[Crashdummy]

We had dailies in TBC, in Wrath, and in Cata. I think the only difference is the amount of gating.

Not really, the only difference is the focus. We had dailies in all those expansion, but they were not the focus of the expansion.

Focusing the expansion around dailies is as bad as what they did in cataclysm, which was focusing the expansion on dungeons. Its just as bad, its not better.

Cataclysm was World of Queucraft, and that was bad.
MoP is World of Dailycraft, and it makes the exact same mistake but with a different feature.

[ShimmerSwirl]

But again, I have to wonder why that matters. Is someone forcing you to run the LFR? Are you upset people would rather use LFR than join a raiding guild? It shouldn't matter to anyone but the person running LFR about the "quality" of the content they get to see. Honestly, I wish they would open LFR up for all the pre-MoP stuff too. Some people just can't raid 2 nights a week 6 hours at a time for Normal/Heroic progression. With LFR, these players (and there are a ton of them) have the chance to raid on their own time, and not the clock of some raid guild.

I think the only reason hardcore raiders hate LFR is because LFR is dipping into their spare pool of raiders. With LFR, people no longer have to beg a guild to let them run with them. Now they can just queue up whenever. I'm guessing if more guilds hadn't been so die hard and elitist about stuff, the LFR probably would not exist. But those casuals who want to see the raids without feeling the undo peer pressure from hardcores got exactly what they asked for... and now "raiders" are upset that they have no recruiting pool left.

I have answered 3 times as to why LFR dilutes the experience for hardcore raiders. If you want to continue to gloss over my answers to your question so you can just repeat yourself thats your choice.

[Crashdummy]

Then go and do a fucking raid! Everyone is bitching about not being able to go to vendor and buy gear so they can raid end game content, not because they can't raid at all.

I am raiding, that doesnt stop me from analizyng the bad things the expansion has. I am way over the gear i can get with dailies or the gear i could adquire through the catch up mechanisms.

I still realize how big a mistake were giving so much focus on dailies and how bad is to not have a reliable catch up mechanic.

[SherbertLand]

I have answered 3 times as to why LFR dilutes the experience for hardcore raiders. If you want to continue to gloss over my answers to your question so you can just repeat yourself thats your choice.

Is it the "They're getting something I'm getting so I'm not special anymore" argument?

[ShimmerSwirl]

If you could buy the 5.0/5.1 valor gear with Justice Points it wouldn't be as bad.

My main problem is that it requires you to queue at least 5 times to do all of the previous LFR's. At least. Usually I have to queue multiple times to finish 2 or 3 of those which means 7-8 queues. That's probably around 6 hours of just waiting to run these raids on my alts so that I can gear them up.

Discouraging to play alts to say the least.

There was a time when people actually raided for fun rather than just as a means to a end.

[SherbertLand]

I am raiding, that doesnt stop me from analizyng the bad things the expansion has. I am way over the gear i can get with dailies or the gear i could adquire through the catch up mechanisms.

I still realize how big a mistake were giving so much focus on dailies and how bad is to not have a reliable catch up mechanic.

All the gear being on a vendor isn't a good catchup mechanic.

[-Superman-]

Remember way back when, when the iLvL was hidden, and all we knew was the new gear had better stats? People could gain access to ANYTHING, but if your stats weren't high enough, or your Dmg/dps/heals, you were just tossed from the run. Gear was never the focus... but rather the reward. We screwed up when we made gear the focus, and not the content. I blame Gearscore and Recount.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Is it the "They're getting something I'm getting so I'm not special anymore" argument?

Exactly. If everyone has everything there is no thrill in trying to pursue the top.

[SherbertLand]

Exactly. If everyone has everything there is no thrill in trying to pursue the top.

Or maybe the thrill is just something other than a superiority complex? I raid because I like playing games with the friends I've made online, not to appear shinier than another player.

[-Superman-]

why LFR dilutes the experience for hardcore raiders

If Hardcores hate LFR, maybe they should not use it as a primary source for raiding... possibly not run it at all. If they are "hardcore" they should already have a spot on a core team and be running Normal/Heroics without even touching LFR. Sometimes it might be needed, but they should not completely strip down a feature just because 3% of the wow community thinks it is "diluted raiding". For some of us, LFR is all we will ever get to use since we are not hardcore raiders. Blizz needs to keep the other 97% of the game base happy.

[Crashdummy]

All the gear being on a vendor isn't a good catchup mechanic.

I would prefer to be on 5 man dungeons.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Or maybe the thrill is just something other than a superiority complex? I raid because I like playing games with the friends I've made online, not to appear shinier than another player.

Awesome. I raid because I like to try and reach the pinnacle of what a game has to offer.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:14 PM ----------

If Hardcores hate LFR, maybe they should not use it as a primary source for raiding... possibly not run it at all. If they are "hardcore" they should already have a spot on a core team and be running Normal/Heroics without even touching LFR. Sometimes it might be needed, but they should not completely strip down a feature just because 3% of the wow community thinks it is "diluted raiding". For some of us, LFR is all we will ever get to use since we are not hardcore raiders. Blizz needs to keep the other 97% of the game base happy.

You really just don't get it or just don't read anything before you hit the reply button.

[SherbertLand]

Awesome. I raid because I like to try and reach the pinnacle of what a game has to offer.

If that were true, I don't see why others being able to see content would ruin that for you.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 03:15 PM ----------

I would prefer to be on 5 man dungeons.

That leads to being caught up in a few days time.

[-Superman-]

Awesome. I raid because I like to try and reach the pinnacle of what a game has to offer.

If LFR shows the same content, but makes it easier for us casuals, we still get to see what the game has to offer without being elitist in the process. No one is taking your Normal/Hardcores away from you. We just enjoy having a less difficult option to see the same thing. It has ZERO affect on regular raiders since they end up in better gear and have the achievements as bragging rights. Not really sure why any raider would feel threatened by LFR.

[SherbertLand]

If LFR shows the same content, but makes it easier for us casuals, we still get to see what the game has to offer without being elitist in the process. No one is taking your Normal/Hardcores away from you. We just enjoy having a less difficult option to see the same thing. It has ZERO affect on regular raiders since they end up in better gear and have the achievements as bragging rights. Not really sure why any raider would feel threatened by LFR.

This guy has the right of it.

[ShimmerSwirl]

If that were true, I don't see why others being able to see content would ruin that for you.

Because the thrill of reaching that pinnacle is greatly reduced knowing that anyone who can push a que button is seeing the exact same thing. An extra couple stats on heroic gear doesn't do it for me.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:19 PM ----------

If LFR shows the same content, but makes it easier for us casuals, we still get to see what the game has to offer without being elitist in the process. No one is taking your Normal/Hardcores away from you. We just enjoy having a less difficult option to see the same thing. It has ZERO affect on regular raiders since they end up in better gear and have the achievements as bragging rights. Not really sure why any raider would feel threatened by LFR.

Its hypocritical for people in your boat to tell me how to 'feel'. If I feel heroic is cheapened by LFD, thats how I feel. You can't tell me there's no reason to feel that way, I already do feel that way.

[Charge me Doctor]

All the gear being on a vendor isn't a good catchup mechanic.

Even old tier gear being on Heroic dungeons discourages people to run raids. Our guild fell apart in cata because "why do i need to tear my ass apart in your stupid raids, i better will go and pvp until next patch and grind heroics to be able to run new raid".

Current model works fine (on average populated servers) because people always build up raids (i've got a spot in 10mHoF pug as enhancement last week, where we had 2 overgeared warlocks and ele shaman who did ~170k DPS, we managed to kill everyone except last boss over one and half hour, and we stopped because RLer disconnected).

If Hardcores hate LFR, maybe they should not use it as a primary source for raiding... possibly not run it at all. If they are "hardcore" they should already have a spot on a core team and be running Normal/Heroics without even touching LFR. Sometimes it might be needed, but they should not completely strip down a feature just because 3% of the wow community thinks it is "diluted raiding". For some of us, LFR is all we will ever get to use since we are not hardcore raiders. Blizz needs to keep the other 97% of the game base happy.

After watching blood legion HM boss kills videos i looked up some nicknames on armory. Most of them haven't stepped in new LFR. Yeah, LFR totally screwed up hardcore raiders

[-Superman-]

Because the thrill of reaching that pinnacle is greatly reduced knowing that anyone who can push a que button is seeing the exact same thing. An extra couple stats on heroic gear doesn't do it for me.

This is your opinion. Maybe raiding isn't the "pinnacle" for us. Maybe it is a Loremaster title, or achievements (at some point), or possibly the pinnacle is just logging on to play with friends and family. Your "end game" definition is not the same as everyone else's and should not affect what content I should or should not see. You need to get over your little shiny complex and let those who are hurting no one enjoy their game for the same $15 they pay. How you raid is your business and how we raid is ours. You stick to yours and we will stick with LFR.

[ShimmerSwirl]

I mean, I could say casuals shouldn't feel entitled to seeing raid content if they're not willing to put the work in. Is that fair?

[SherbertLand]

Because the thrill of reaching that pinnacle is greatly reduced knowing that anyone who can push a que button is seeing the exact same thing. An extra couple stats on heroic gear doesn't do it for me.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:19 PM ----------



Its hypocritical for people in your boat to tell me how to 'feel'. If I feel heroic is cheapened by LFD, thats how I feel. You can't tell me there's no reason to feel that way, I already do feel that way.

Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it's not selfish and shallow. Why should people be denied the experience just because you want to feel better about yourself?