Make raid for casual and do it right!

[Tomana]

Casuals need a free epic gear vendor or QQ will never stop and blizzard is slowly heading that way.
"But I got family and kids and I can only play 5 minutes every hour, but I also pay thos 13e/month - GEIF EPIX NOW!!!11"

Strangely enough, no one actually posts that on the forums. Except people with serious comprehension skills that try to make us gobble up the fact that apparently, some of those players actually post that.

No players in their right mind (bar a very small minority) are asking for a epics vendor. However, what you need to understand is that economically speaking, the games rests upon those "I got family and kids" players. Not on the tiny minority of medicores (top guilds aren't doing that) whining about how "easy" it is to get epics. Without that base, the game would shut down long ago. Hence, making end game accessible for that huge population is the least a sensible editor can do.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 12:52 AM ----------

If you got all those thing easy and then you say WTF this game is boring because its easy... and some dude come in and say "this game is not easy, have you tried the one hard content?" I'll just go WTF. Again, regardless of how many HARD content there are. The important is the overall feeling FOR the game.

A lot of raiders will tell you that raiding difficulty ramped up in MOP. There are more and more mechanics.
Rotations for classes are much more complex now to produce effective DPS. Compare the warlock rotation in vanilla and TBC and now. Or enh shaman. Shadowbolt spam was soooo fun in SWP... or maybe not.

[LairenyX]

Except everyone is different and as a result, games should be catered to as many individuals as possible. Which World of Warcraft does NOW. They DIDN'T back in vanilla or BC. It was three groups.

1. PvPers/Arenaers
2. Raiders
3. Everyone else stuck doing nothing at all

Now these groups all have their own subgroups. Do you raid heroics? Do you raid normals? Do you raid LFR? Do you do random BG's or rated? Do you do pet battles? Do you do challenge modes? Do you just like to run around and farm things? Do you like to kill rare mobs by yourself?

Do you understand what "everyone is different" actually means now? What you've been saying is that everyone played the game exactly the same way you did and everyone liked it. Which is FALSE. Because if that were true, the game would be exactly the same. There wouldn't be necessity to change things. However, each time someone quit their subscription because they were sick of doing Karazhan and nothing else for seven months straight, they put that in their little "why I quit" box, which you never saw. Or in vanilla, when they decided that there were so many places they would never have the time to see, so what's the point...they put that in their little box. When they put "because I can't get any gear progression without raiding in a 40-man environment", Blizzard saw that and said "Hmm, maybe we should make some raids smaller and give epics through other venues". Hey, know one of the systems you probably hate STARTED in BC? It's called THE BADGES SYSTEM. Where for just doing heroics on a daily basis, you could eventually buy epic quality gear. Sound familiar?

Blizzard doesn't need to share jack with you, because it is clear by their gaming design that the changes they make are for the majority of people who want them. Know what else shows that to be a fact? This game still has about 5 TIMES the playerbase of ANY major market MMO out there. More than Guild Wars, Star Wars, and every other kind of Wars you can think of. WoW not only trumps them all, but by margins that some of those games collectively can't even match.

The majority already spoke. Whatever you think they were saying, it's very clear they weren't. So...there ya go. Good bye. You got nothing left in your already empty barrel. That's it. Show's over. WoW is what it is now because that's what people want, and the proof is in the fact alone that WoW is now what it is. There's no ifs, and, or buts to it. Nobody cares what you think beyond that. Because what you think is quite clearly not an opinion shared by many. Need any more proof to that fact? Maybe read the responses in this thread a second time.

If you don't like it, well..tough.

Except everyone is different and as a result, games should be catered to as many individuals as possible. Which World of Warcraft does NOW. They DIDN'T back in vanilla or BC. It was three groups.

1. PvPers/Arenaers
2. Raiders
3. Everyone else stuck doing nothing at all

Now these groups all have their own subgroups. Do you raid heroics? Do you raid normals? Do you raid LFR? Do you do random BG's or rated? Do you do pet battles? Do you do challenge modes? Do you just like to run around and farm things? Do you like to kill rare mobs by yourself?

Do you understand what "everyone is different" actually means now? What you've been saying is that everyone played the game exactly the same way you did and everyone liked it. Which is FALSE. Because if that were true, the game would be exactly the same. There wouldn't be necessity to change things. However, each time someone quit their subscription because they were sick of doing Karazhan and nothing else for seven months straight, they put that in their little "why I quit" box, which you never saw. Or in vanilla, when they decided that there were so many places they would never have the time to see, so what's the point...they put that in their little box. When they put "because I can't get any gear progression without raiding in a 40-man environment", Blizzard saw that and said "Hmm, maybe we should make some raids smaller and give epics through other venues". Hey, know one of the systems you probably hate STARTED in BC? It's called THE BADGES SYSTEM. Where for just doing heroics on a daily basis, you could eventually buy epic quality gear. Sound familiar?

Blizzard doesn't need to share jack with you, because it is clear by their gaming design that the changes they make are for the majority of people who want them. Know what else shows that to be a fact? This game still has about 5 TIMES the playerbase of ANY major market MMO out there. More than Guild Wars, Star Wars, and every other kind of Wars you can think of. WoW not only trumps them all, but by margins that some of those games collectively can't even match.

The majority already spoke. Whatever you think they were saying, it's very clear they weren't. So...there ya go. Good bye. You got nothing left in your already empty barrel. That's it. Show's over. WoW is what it is now because that's what people want, and the proof is in the fact alone that WoW is now what it is. There's no ifs, and, or buts to it. Nobody cares what you think beyond that. Because what you think is quite clearly not an opinion shared by many. Need any more proof to that fact? Maybe read the responses in this thread a second time.

If you don't like it, well..tough.

You say 2/3 of people do PvE. Common, it's clear then when you're "stucked doing nothing" mean you're preparing like crazy to do the bigger thing by doing the smaller thing... like farming heroic for the Sun Eater common. That's not nothing, really now.

As for subgroup... well...

1) Do you raid heroics? Answer: Yes, and I preffer forming group for it.
2) DO you raid LFR? Answer: YES, but I preffer forming a group for it.
3) Do you do random BG'S?
4) Do you do rated BGS?

3+4 ans: YES, but I preffer forming group for PvE because I do PvE TOO.

If 3+4 were PvP only, they don't matter too much because there's only a small amount of them beacuse minus the pvp lover who also love oding PvE.

What's my flipping point!? all PvEer (included are PvPer who likes PVE) are the same. We all like to form group, and work toward hard content, even though we're not experiencing it yet.

Why do you keep on insisting that we merely want to see!? seriously! We want to see but we want to work toward too. LFR/LFD is bad because it remove part of the game that is CRUCIAL for player's fun.

LFR =/= hate forming group. You're just doing it because it is merely the most efficient... but it's boring.

PvEer lover and (PvEer + PvP) lover makes up prolly maybe 80% of the population? and what have I been arguing all along? we're all the same we prefer that extra aspect of the game play where we form a group. Its a fuller experience that add to the overall fun and excitement. As long as you can WORK toward it, that's all it matter.

I insist all PvEer are the same I'm sorry because we're more the same than we're different. To kill PvE like this is to slowly leak them away through bordem. They might be doing LFR now but they're bored out of their mind lady. How do I know? Cause I quit and we're all the same! mwahhaha.

Your "Iquit cause I didn't see it" is merely false or insignificant statistic because WoW BC grew SOOO MUCH. This is clearly evidence supporting the fact that we're all the same within the context.

[Nadev]

There is A GREAT DAMN, I say a GREAT DAMN. LFR is what stop me. I gave you a reason already:

1) Why should I do dungeon normally or HC if I can experience the setting in LFR?
2) Why should I do LFR if I get fake gear?

The same reason you play any other game. Because. It. Is. Fun. If it's not fun for you, find another game to play or come back if/when they change it back to your standards.

I suspect you to be a player belonging to the insignificant PvP lover pool

Is this some thinly veiled dig at PvP players?

or some pool outside of the PvE lover or PvE and PvP lover pool who feels neutral and just want to have a part in the conversation... but you're merely contaminating it.

Bullshit. I love PvE. I PvP'd during BC because I couldn't commit to raiding schedule (and I finally hit 70 about a month before Wrath). I started running heroic dungeons and raiding in Wrath and never looked back. I leveled in the horrible pre-Cata 1-60 zones. I leveled in the mediocre 61-70 zones. Looking for a group while questing in Zangarmarsh didn't get you anywhere. You had to park your ass in a city and spam trade, praying that you could get enough people. You weren't questing. You weren't exploring. You weren't doing anything but fishing for level 60somethings to come party with you.

If your idea of fun is sitting in the Trade District for often hours on end looking for a group and doing a dungeon in half the time, you are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how crazy it seems. Resurrecting your ideas would kill this game because only masochists would enjoy it.

And talking about "Vanilla difficulty" is laughable. Bosses that auto-attack for a living seem real difficult when you're in quest greens or resist gear.

[Otimus]

You say 2/3 of people do PvE. Common, it's clear then when you're "stucked doing nothing" mean you're preparing like crazy to do the bigger thing by doing the smaller thing... like farming heroic for the Sun Eater common. That's not nothing, really now.

As for subgroup... well...

1) Do you raid heroics? Answer: Yes, and I preffer forming group for it.
2) DO you raid LFR? Answer: YES, but I preffer forming a group for it.
3) Do you do random BG'S?
4) Do you do rated BGS?

3+4 ans: YES, but I preffer forming group for PvE because I do PvE TOO.

If 3+4 were PvP only, they don't matter too much because there's only a small amount of them beacuse minus the pvp lover who also love oding PvE.

What's my flipping point!? all PvEer (included are PvPer who likes PVE) are the same. We all like to form group, and work toward hard content, even though we're not experiencing it yet.

Why do you keep on insisting that we merely want to see!? seriously! We want to see but we want to work toward too. LFR/LFD is bad because it remove part of the game that is CRUCIAL for player's fun.

LFR =/= hate forming group. You're just doing it because it is merely the most efficient... but it's boring.

PvEer lover and (PvEer + PvP) lover makes up prolly maybe 80% of the population? and what have I been arguing all along? we're all the same we prefer that extra aspect of the game play where we form a group. Its a fuller experience that add to the overall fun and excitement. As long as you can WORK toward it, that's all it matter.

I insist all PvEer are the same I'm sorry because we're more the same than we're different. To kill PvE like this is to slowly leak them away through bordem. They might be doing LFR now but they're bored out of their mind lady. How do I know? Cause I quit and we're all the same! mwahhaha.

Your "Iquit cause I didn't see it" is merely false or insignificant statistic because WoW BC grew SOOO MUCH. This is clearly evidence supporting the fact that we're all the same within the context.

You do know that Blizzard has said in various interviews that, during BC, practically around 5% of the player base ever saw raids, right? Like, ever even stepped in foot in one. Not even defeated anything in it. Never. Even. Looked. At it. AND, around that same time, they said that most people didn't even reach the level cap. That's why WOTLK had so many changes in it toward this stuff. It made leveling a lot quicker/easier, and raids and stuff were easier to get into/do. Because BLIZZARD said very few people did them.

Also, I hate to be insulting, but you never answered if English wasn't your second language. If it isn't, that's depressing :x

[mitbrandir]

casual doesn't mean you're unable to play your class, or bother to google "<class> guide mmo-champion". The way it is is good. As blizz stated in one of their blue posts, they made Throne Of Thunder normal about controling the mechanics like you should, and not about being able to pump out a ton of dps.

[Risale]

Okay so i have been reading this and i just had to reply and add my 2 cents.

Semi hardcore raider yes i was in TBC,Wrath & Cata
Casual raider yes thats me now in MoP, however my guild cleared MSV, HoF, did HC modes, then moved to ToeS now to ToT.
My entire guild is made up of players that have been for years hell 1 of us even played on the US beta, so a lot of experiance but due to RL commitments we can't afford 5 nights a week 5-6 hours a night.
We are casuals yet we still progress we get to see content and can show our skills in the time we have.

Do I want the model that you state in your original post for casuals hell no.

You have 3 types of raids LFR, Normal & HC what I would like to see is maybe a 10 man LFR version with ilvl scaled to match so say ilvl 471 for MSV or something, and tbh I don't think that should be to hard on the part of Blizzard (we have 10/25 man normal & HC).

The one thing I miss is the ability to do both 10 & 25 in a single week yes you may think I am weird but I liked it myself, mind you at the time i was in a 25 man guild taht didn't let you pug current 25s but 10s were open to us so I could raid with peeps I knew on my server and have a blast with them aswell as my guildies.
For some reason it brought the server community closer as people actualy knew who was who and who was good and bad (yes i know this was the gearscore era /shudder).
So why not bring that back (minus the gearscore BS) and/or add 10 man LFR.

Okay my 2 cents have been posted now i am off to bed and will catch and replies tmrw.

[Forsedar]

casual doesn't mean you're unable to play your class, or bother to google "<class> guide mmo-champion". The way it is is good. As blizz stated in one of their blue posts, they made Throne Of Thunder normal about controling the mechanics like you should, and not about being able to pump out a ton of dps.

More specifically on this: Blizzard made Normal ToT about actually executing mechanics and it not being lenient or forgiving for derping it up and standing in things that kill you. LFR shows you the mechanics and pats you on the back for not standing in something bad for 10 seconds. Normal mode is not standing in it period and paying attention to something without just going through the motions.

[worsthitmanNa]

From what I have heard about vanilla the game wasn't any harder just more grindy. Having to have world buffs, flask, and 1000 thousand things outside of the raid. Having to farm resistance gear which extended fights and just the game being a lot more geared dependent. Bosses dropping less item and don't even get me started about rng drop legendaries which made no sense. Every fight from vanilla that has be redone has been was downed in a couple hours because the fights themselves were never hard just to absurd amounts of time to gather the stuff required to down them. I don't understand why people think vanilla took more skill everything is harder now rotations, and boss mechanics in general the only thing that changed is tuning honestly.

LFR is for newbs stop pretending any achievement or gear obtained from it matters because it doesn't.
Btw blizzard choices to nerf things cause they feel to small of a % of the player base has done it.

[LairenyX]

The same reason you play any other game. Because. It. Is. Fun. If it's not fun for you, find another game to play or come back if/when they change it back to your standards.



Is this some thinly veiled dig at PvP players?



Bullshit. I love PvE. I PvP'd during BC because I couldn't commit to raiding schedule (and I finally hit 70 about a month before Wrath). I started running heroic dungeons and raiding in Wrath and never looked back. I leveled in the horrible pre-Cata 1-60 zones. I leveled in the mediocre 61-70 zones. Looking for a group while questing in Zangarmarsh didn't get you anywhere. You had to park your ass in a city and spam trade, praying that you could get enough people. You weren't questing. You weren't exploring. You weren't doing anything but fishing for level 60somethings to come party with you.

If your idea of fun is sitting in the Trade District for often hours on end looking for a group and doing a dungeon in half the time, you are entitled to your own opinion, no matter how crazy it seems. Resurrecting your ideas would kill this game because only masochists would enjoy it.

And talking about "Vanilla difficulty" is laughable. Bosses that auto-attack for a living seem real difficult when you're in quest greens or resist gear.

Wooo woo.. hold your horse. Stop making it sounds like forming a group is worse than LFD.

I keep trying to beat it into your head that forming a group is game play that is half of the process of doing a dungeon that add to the overal experience, excitement, and fun at the end.

...Why don't you get this?

You keep saying "the process of group forming kills the game and is not fun"...then you go on to claim you "love PvE" despite reject group forming outright. I say you're a liar.

I say you're not a PvE lover or a PvP and PvE lover. All PvE lover love the same thing, that is group forming and doing the dungeon/raid afterward. You're plain straight up lying. You belong to another context and clearly not PvE if you hate group forming, clearly.

All PvEer LOVE group forming.

Stop trying to pretend to be a PvE lover.

As for hating on PvP player? no, all I'm saying is that PvP lovers who ONLY makes up 1/10 or 2/10 of WoW's population shouldn't be in this discussion about how PvE should work. It doesn't concern them.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 03:33 AM ----------

You do know that Blizzard has said in various interviews that, during BC, practically around 5% of the player base ever saw raids, right? Like, ever even stepped in foot in one. Not even defeated anything in it. Never. Even. Looked. At it. AND, around that same time, they said that most people didn't even reach the level cap. That's why WOTLK had so many changes in it toward this stuff. It made leveling a lot quicker/easier, and raids and stuff were easier to get into/do. Because BLIZZARD said very few people did them.

Also, I hate to be insulting, but you never answered if English wasn't your second language. If it isn't, that's depressing :x

Did they say anything about how all the players didn't get to do raid but they were working feverishly toward it? maybe completing Kara or Gruul or got foot into anything less than SSC?

Did they say anything about players loving the thrill of working toward the end game raid by working to get pre-raid gear? did Blizzard analyze this human factor?

Try to find out if people loved the PvE style despite not getting into much?

How about you tell me some of this data instead of quoting blizzard's looking at hardcold number and not interpret it in a humane way?

OHHH only 5% player got to see it... they must HATE it OHHH...

They need to try to figure out if ppl loved it or hate it to begin with. I want to see data on this, not blind assumption based on number.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 03:36 AM ----------

Okay so i have been reading this and i just had to reply and add my 2 cents.

Semi hardcore raider yes i was in TBC,Wrath & Cata
Casual raider yes thats me now in MoP, however my guild cleared MSV, HoF, did HC modes, then moved to ToeS now to ToT.
My entire guild is made up of players that have been for years hell 1 of us even played on the US beta, so a lot of experiance but due to RL commitments we can't afford 5 nights a week 5-6 hours a night.
We are casuals yet we still progress we get to see content and can show our skills in the time we have.

Do I want the model that you state in your original post for casuals hell no.

You have 3 types of raids LFR, Normal & HC what I would like to see is maybe a 10 man LFR version with ilvl scaled to match so say ilvl 471 for MSV or something, and tbh I don't think that should be to hard on the part of Blizzard (we have 10/25 man normal & HC).

The one thing I miss is the ability to do both 10 & 25 in a single week yes you may think I am weird but I liked it myself, mind you at the time i was in a 25 man guild taht didn't let you pug current 25s but 10s were open to us so I could raid with peeps I knew on my server and have a blast with them aswell as my guildies.
For some reason it brought the server community closer as people actualy knew who was who and who was good and bad (yes i know this was the gearscore era /shudder).
So why not bring that back (minus the gearscore BS) and/or add 10 man LFR.

Okay my 2 cents have been posted now i am off to bed and will catch and replies tmrw.

Bro... your 2 cent talked about some positive for hte old stuff but...

...you didn't rlly say anything about what excite and give you fun in the current game or in the past game. You're not mentioning anything about excitement and fun being a motivation for you to want a game to go a certain way.

...It sounds just a little like you saying you just want to do thing, free of them evoking any excitement/fun emotion from your brain, like working at the cashier. Like you'd rather have things to do, regardless if they provide the feeling of fun and excitement or not.

[Fenixdown]

Wooo woo.. hold your horse. Stop making it sounds like forming a group is worse than LFD.

I keep trying to beat it into your head that forming a group is game play that is half of the process of doing a dungeon that add to the overal experience, excitement, and fun at the end.

...Why don't you get this?

You keep saying "the process of group forming kills the game and is not fun"...then you go on to claim you "love PvE" despite reject group forming outright. I say you're a liar.

I say you're not a PvE lover or a PvP and PvE lover. All PvE lover love the same thing, that is group forming and doing the dungeon/raid afterward. You're plain straight up lying. You belong to another context and clearly not PvE if you hate group forming, clearly.

All PvEer LOVE group forming.

Stop trying to pretend to be a PvE lover.

As for hating on PvP player? no, all I'm saying is that PvP lovers who ONLY makes up 1/10 or 2/10 of WoW's population shouldn't be in this discussion about how PvE should work. It doesn't concern them.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 03:33 AM ----------



Did they say anything about how all the players didn't get to do raid but they were working feverishly toward it? maybe completing Kara or Gruul or got foot into anything less than SSC?

Did they say anything about players loving the thrill of working toward the end game raid by working to get pre-raid gear? did Blizzard analyze this human factor?

Try to find out if people loved the PvE style despite not getting into much?

How about you tell me some of this data instead of quoting blizzard's looking at hardcold number and not interpret it in a humane way?

OHHH only 5% player got to see it... they must HATE it OHHH...

They need to try to figure out if ppl loved it or hate it to begin with. I want to see data on this, not blind assumption based on number.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 03:36 AM ----------



Bro... your 2 cent talked about some positive for hte old stuff but...

...you didn't rlly say anything about what excite and give you fun in the current game or in the past game. You're not mentioning anything about excitement and fun being a motivation for you to want a game to go a certain way.

...It sounds just a little like you saying you just want to do thing, free of them evoking any excitement/fun emotion from your brain, like working at the cashier. Like you'd rather have things to do, regardless if they provide the feeling of fun and excitement or not.

A. More people do PvP on some scale than raiding. You can just stop with that one. Considering making an arena team only takes two people, whereas making a raid takes at least ten.

B. I love PvE. I love raiding. I would never go back to the old system of having to find people who want to a. get off their butts to do a dungeon, b. actually know where the dungeon is, and c. bother to get off of their butts to go to the dungeon. Hey, remember this one?

-LFM BM Heroic need tank
-I'm a tank, I'll go.
-KK WE HAVE TANK HEAD TO INSTANCE!
-fly to instance to see four other people ask to be summoned
-/facepalm

And that, my friends, is where LFD was born. Now you a. get your group formed faster, b. get summoned to the instance faster, and c. get rewarded faster for all of just using a simple UI menu. Just like enchanting being shared among your party now. Hey, remember having to have at least five or six free bag slots just so you could be the "sharder" for your heroic? Yeah, I do. Know how I remember this? Because I'm an enchanter. That person was me. Know how much I love not having to do that anymore? Lots. Lots and lots and lots.

So, your little "all PvE think same as me so if you no think like me you no PvE"...is about as far from the truth as the sun is far from Pluto. I'm a PvEer. Straight up. Pretty sure my achievements prove that for themselves. Go ahead, look me up, I'm pretty easy to find. Tell me I'm a "PvPer". Try to call me a liar.

Now with that knowledge, I'll say it one more time. No. That system doesn't need to come back. Ever. LFR is great for what it's there for. It's not there for you. It's there for other people. It's not even there for me, but I use it anyway for my own reasons. So, if you want to raid normal and skip LFR...SKIP LFR! If you're in a guild that forces you to do LFR for gear...FIND A NEW GUILD!

BUT

YOU QUIT THE GAME SO YOUR GRIPES ARE A MOOT POINT. It's pretty clear to everyone else that LFR remained after Dragon Soul, after patch 5.0, and will be there in patch 5.4 and beyond for a reason. Because people not named you like the system. If you don't like something that other people like, it does not make them wrong and you right. It makes you, and wait for this, DIFFERENT. We're not going to "see the light" about how "LFR ruined the game", like you claim it has. We're not because it hasn't. Not in any fashion. NOT. FOR. US.

So just stop. Seriously, dude. Accept defeat and move on in your life. You're clinging to this ideal like an obsessed ex clings to an old photo. That photo isn't going to come to life and give you everything you ever wanted back again, dude. Just move forward. Stop clinging to the past like a psycho.

[Coraulten]

Wooo woo.. hold your horse. Stop making it sounds like forming a group is worse than LFD.

I keep trying to beat it into your head that forming a group is game play that is half of the process of doing a dungeon that add to the overal experience, excitement, and fun at the end.

...Why don't you get this?

You keep saying "the process of group forming kills the game and is not fun"...then you go on to claim you "love PvE" despite reject group forming outright. I say you're a liar.

I say you're not a PvE lover or a PvP and PvE lover. All PvE lover love the same thing, that is group forming and doing the dungeon/raid afterward. You're plain straight up lying. You belong to another context and clearly not PvE if you hate group forming, clearly.

All PvEer LOVE group forming.

Stop trying to pretend to be a PvE lover.

As for hating on PvP player? no, all I'm saying is that PvP lovers who ONLY makes up 1/10 or 2/10 of WoW's population shouldn't be in this discussion about how PvE should work. It doesn't concern them.

You're playing the "No true scottsman card" which is a type of logical fallacy, you should look it up. Because peoples opinions on pve differ thans yours, you claim they arn't "true" PVE'ers. It's actualy quite funny, you call him lieing for stateing his opinion.

Your comment on PvP'ers is quite ignorant and short sighted. PvE correlates to how classes are balanced which in turn effects how pvp is balanced. I would honestly like to know the source where you got the amount of PvP only players.

To present an example to show how flawed your statement actually was: Because Asian Americans only make up 1/10 or 2/10 of our population, they shouldn't get a say in how our government is ran.

[Rotted]

Thing is people like their shiny epics now, being handed to them from LFR on a plate so to speak, if blizz did this idea, it would be mean LFR to be removed, which would make a lot of subs quit

Then, those who do LFR, didnt quit would have to face at some point replacing their LFR epics for the "blue style 0.5" tier gear, like vin, which would make more quit

[wariofan1]

Did you even do 10 man UBRS, SCHOLO, Strath front/backdoor back then? that was the RIGHT of doing 10 man raid for casual. Raiding like that was MUCH more exciting... it was called dungeon but it was really raiding, just named differently.

How is 10 man raiding back in Vanilla not better than it is now? you interact with the community to find a group and you work together, not like LFR where u group with ppl u never see and its done afterward.

Eh, I never found UBRS to be very exciting, only Drakkisath was really cool. I much prefer to be able to experience the awesome content, even if it is watered down, than to experience a generic dungeon but with more players. Scholo and Strat were only 10 man for a short amount of time, I can't remember why they were changed to 5 man, but they were definitely changed in Vanilla.

[LairenyX]

A. More people do PvP on some scale than raiding. You can just stop with that one. Considering making an arena team only takes two people, whereas making a raid takes at least ten.

B. I love PvE. I love raiding. I would never go back to the old system of having to find people who want to a. get off their butts to do a dungeon, b. actually know where the dungeon is, and c. bother to get off of their butts to go to the dungeon. Hey, remember this one?

-LFM BM Heroic need tank
-I'm a tank, I'll go.
-KK WE HAVE TANK HEAD TO INSTANCE!
-fly to instance to see four other people ask to be summoned
-/facepalm

And that, my friends, is where LFD was born. Now you a. get your group formed faster, b. get summoned to the instance faster, and c. get rewarded faster for all of just using a simple UI menu. Just like enchanting being shared among your party now. Hey, remember having to have at least five or six free bag slots just so you could be the "sharder" for your heroic? Yeah, I do. Know how I remember this? Because I'm an enchanter. That person was me. Know how much I love not having to do that anymore? Lots. Lots and lots and lots.

So, your little "all PvE think same as me so if you no think like me you no PvE"...is about as far from the truth as the sun is far from Pluto. I'm a PvEer. Straight up. Pretty sure my achievements prove that for themselves. Go ahead, look me up, I'm pretty easy to find. Tell me I'm a "PvPer". Try to call me a liar.

Now with that knowledge, I'll say it one more time. No. That system doesn't need to come back. Ever. LFR is great for what it's there for. It's not there for you. It's there for other people. It's not even there for me, but I use it anyway for my own reasons. So, if you want to raid normal and skip LFR...SKIP LFR! If you're in a guild that forces you to do LFR for gear...FIND A NEW GUILD!

BUT

YOU QUIT THE GAME SO YOUR GRIPES ARE A MOOT POINT. It's pretty clear to everyone else that LFR remained after Dragon Soul, after patch 5.0, and will be there in patch 5.4 and beyond for a reason. Because people not named you like the system. If you don't like something that other people like, it does not make them wrong and you right. It makes you, and wait for this, DIFFERENT. We're not going to "see the light" about how "LFR ruined the game", like you claim it has. We're not because it hasn't. Not in any fashion. NOT. FOR. US.

So just stop. Seriously, dude. Accept defeat and move on in your life. You're clinging to this ideal like an obsessed ex clings to an old photo. That photo isn't going to come to life and give you everything you ever wanted back again, dude. Just move forward. Stop clinging to the past like a psycho.

Look, look, you're telling me alot of fact and intended logic. PvP is easier to form and and faster to do. Forming group had its frustration. People talked about their days of group failures in general forum... blizzard saw this and made LFD using logic: "If A feature frustrate player, we should remove it". My respond? so what with your fact and intended logic?

What I'm only interested in is what spark the excitement and the fun in the players when they interact with the game. These intended logic and fact doesn't necessarily mean players are provided with fun and excitement . What the intended logic and fact you mention guaranteed is a an activity to do... an easy, loot accessible, and fast activity to do.

You can blurt out all you want in the reply post "doing an activity means player are having fun" when on the contrary it's far from that... especially if the activity is easily accessible and gear rewarding right away that takes away the mentality of "earned". "Earned" is a satisfied feeling the brain feel when it has gone through thing like forging a group manually... and facing a difficulty that is reasonable but not spoon feed clearly.

Now now, I have argued that we are different but the amount in which we are different are insignificant and irrelevant. When context is put in place, such as PvE loving, then we're all the same in the same way we feel toward PvE.

I've defined how I view reality in the context of WoW and its subcontext as a PvE lover already. I especially worried about contamination in the discussion of what is the best design decision for the game, and that's jsut about what you did. Going through your achievement, you clearly have "lose your illusion" from both 25 man and 10 man Thorim. What does this show? this show that you're a well off person some where experiencing fun excitement with a guild that you're well established with, a guild that had come manually forged for you so you may do challlenging content so that when you're rewarded, you're happy and excited. Your group and the difficulty of your content is DIFFERENT from LFR/LFD group formed and content.

You're well off... but this is where you contaminate the discussion. You're like a rich person looking down on the poor who doesn't have the luxury to have that premade guild taking you through the challenging content so that you may do what's fun and exciting and get reward that feels right. You're up there blabing "ohh I'm well of, but what is in store for the LFD/LFR seems humble and logic intended: forming a group CAN be annoying so LFD/LFR is the solution. This is best for them because it sounds logical and humble"... but you have no idea what you're doing in reality... no idea the contamination you add to a discussion that is meant to fix this game for how it should be.

Beyond that, these lower people whose only chance at experience the same fun and excitement that you experience stem from forming their own manual group with other people and doing content that were lower but still challenging, like how UBRS was challenging but not as challenge as BWL. IT still gave that feeling of fun and excitement, after you manually form your group, you succeed, and you get a reward that you feel you earn.

So you're sitting up there not experiencing this "mindless bordom, fast and easy activity" that these poorer people are forced to face. Yet you think you identify yourself with them by just saying "I'm a PvE lover so I'm like them" when in fact you're nothing like them. You get to experience what they don't. So don't be sitting on your fun and excitement throne and contaminate this discussion on how to improve the game for the rest of the player who are not where you are please. Do not echoes and be a blizzard defender saying: "OHHH It was frustrating soo LFR/LFD is the right way to go" when you infact know nothing about reality, nothing about how the human mind work, nothing about how we're extremely the same in how we feel toward an activity.

Perhaps if you weren't sitting on your throne then I'll take your words more seriously. You're not experiencing the boredom and mindless activity of LFR/LFD, so do NOT come down here to contaminate the discussion. You have community, fun, and excitement. They have stranger, boredom, and mindlessness.

I'll conclude by saying again that the way in which we are different are insignificant. We feel the same way toward the same activity that we do. LFD/LFR is a tragedy of intended logic and fact that had no consideration for how the human feelings actually work. Blizzard should have asked themselves "players talking about thr bad days that they had with forming a group... but is this healthy for them? this frustration?" they should have asked such a question. The answer is yes because manually forming a dungeon is a crucial part of the game play that allow you to feel excitement and fun and well earned reward.

Don't think you have this figured out already. Life isn't simple as adap or quit. I'm going to fight for Vanilla and TBC to move forward until I am completely burned out. I never want to go back to them because i have experience them already. I want future expansion to move forward with their game design.

So run of back to your throne and enjoy your luxery princess, while I work to make things better for these people who aren't as fortunate as you!

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 12:22 PM ----------

You're playing the "No true scottsman card" which is a type of logical fallacy, you should look it up. Because peoples opinions on pve differ thans yours, you claim they arn't "true" PVE'ers. It's actualy quite funny, you call him lieing for stateing his opinion.

Your comment on PvP'ers is quite ignorant and short sighted. PvE correlates to how classes are balanced which in turn effects how pvp is balanced. I would honestly like to know the source where you got the amount of PvP only players.

To present an example to show how flawed your statement actually was: Because Asian Americans only make up 1/10 or 2/10 of our population, they shouldn't get a say in how our government is ran.

Look look, don't get technical with this to point me out. That was mostly rhetorical using a rough estimate. In my head this is what I estimate

1)Pure PvE lover
2)Pure PvP lover
3)PvE and PvE lover

PVE people makes up 2/3 of the population by my rough estimate according to this list. So what's left? just the PVP lover, which is 1/3 or 3/10 or... a very small amount compare to those PvE ppl.

I'm just trying to make a point that there aren't as many pure PvP loving ppl as PvE lover okay?

...and about the "No true scottman card thing", all I got to say is dude, you can accept that in reality we are all the same way. We like PvE the same way because we're that extremely similar.

If you don't believe this then merely say the opposite, say everyone is different, say everyone lieks PvE differently go on. HAHAH!

But in real life you can have two people say

1) Babies are adorable
2) Babies are not adorable.

Only one of them can be right I'm sorry... and the one that is right is ME... merely because I made enough observation about human beings to confidently say that we're more similar then we are different, and this matter more.

What have you gotten to back up your claim that everyone is different and this is more significant than the similarity? prolly nothing cause you just came up with the saying! harhar!

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 12:23 PM ----------

Thing is people like their shiny epics now, being handed to them from LFR on a plate so to speak, if blizz did this idea, it would be mean LFR to be removed, which would make a lot of subs quit

Then, those who do LFR, didnt quit would have to face at some point replacing their LFR epics for the "blue style 0.5" tier gear, like vin, which would make more quit

Nah man, despite you thinking that many ppl will quit after LFR/LFD is removed, I think the opposite. I think if LFR is removed, people will stay and aside from that... WoW will regain what player it had before AND increase in its playerbas in the comming year...

...because what we all want is excitement and fun in the activity we do... not boredome and mindlessness in wht we do.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 12:24 PM ----------

Eh, I never found UBRS to be very exciting, only Drakkisath was really cool. I much prefer to be able to experience the awesome content, even if it is watered down, than to experience a generic dungeon but with more players. Scholo and Strat were only 10 man for a short amount of time, I can't remember why they were changed to 5 man, but they were definitely changed in Vanilla.

What? you didn't liked UBRS even when they threw you into the pit and Nefarian is like "PWN THE PRIEST" or when you fought the beast? these bosses drop some epic lewd... especially if u were a paladin or warrior... maybe its cause you were a clothie or something. If this case, another dungeon might be Strath or Scholo for you.

[Coraulten]

Look look, don't get technical with this to point me out. That was mostly rhetorical using a rough estimate. In my head this is what I estimate

1)Pure PvE lover
2)Pure PvP lover
3)PvE and PvE lover

PVE people makes up 2/3 of the population by my rough estimate according to this list. So what's left? just the PVP lover, which is 1/3 or 3/10 or... a very small amount compare to those PvE ppl.

I'm just trying to make a point that there aren't as many pure PvP loving ppl as PvE lover okay?

...and about the "No true scottman card thing", all I got to say is dude, you can accept that in reality we are all the same way. We like PvE the same way because we're that extremely similar.

If you don't believe this then merely say the opposite, say everyone is different, say everyone lieks PvE differently go on. HAHAH!

But in real life you can have two people say

1) Babies are adorable
2) Babies are not adorable.

Only one of them can be right I'm sorry... and the one that is right is ME... merely because I made enough observation about human beings to confidently say that we're more similar then we are different, and this matter more.

What have you gotten to back up your claim that everyone is different and this is more significant than the similarity? prolly nothing cause you just came up with the saying! harhar![COLOR="red"]

I don't even know where to begin this post is just atrocious.

When you state a number as a fact, it is not rhetorical. Looking at your post im actualy quite curious if you can do math. ASSUMEING the numbers you pulled out of your ass were accurate PVP players would account for roughly 66%% of the community. Again according to YOUR numbers.

Pure PVE players =1/3-3.3/10-33%

Pure PVP players = 1/3-3.3/10-33%

PVE and PVP = 1/3-3.3/10-33%


But that math is completely irrelevant since you made up the numbers, since you have no data to make these assertions on, your claims have no standing.
such as the "there aren't as many pure PvP loving ppl as PvE lover okay".

I can tell you right now, we don't like to pve the same way. From what i've read on your posts you like to stand in trade chat for several ours to finally form a group to do dungeons which you claim is "part of the fun".

Not everyone enjoys to pve the same way, some hardcore guilds like to raid every night for several hours, my guild raids twice a week for a few hours each of those nights. The fact that my guild shares different raid times than other guilds is enough proof to know that not everyone enjoys to pve the same way.

The no true Scotsman fallacy is as follows: The no true Scotsman is a fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.

To make a retort to the baby thing; you don't seem to understand what an opinion is. There is no such thing as a "right" opinion. The fact that you might see a baby as adorable is completely subjective. The fact that you think your opinion is "right" tells me that you lack basic logical thinking skills.

The fact that everyone's genetic makeup is different means that everyone is different. Sure some people's interests might align but they are in fact different people. There have actually been studies of genetic clones being completely different as well but alas irrelevant to our arguement.

[notorious98]

They should just remove LFR, and make 5 mans and solo content a much better exsperience. I'd think a 10 man dungeon/raid would be really cool.

Or stop force feeding LFR as a 25 man. Let smaller casual guilds go into LFR without having to group up with a bunch of other random people. Also, make it a little tougher. Jesus. LFR is so fucking easy.

[Novx]

They were 10 man in Vanilla not 5 man what are you talking about?

They were made for the casual. People did them because they were casual.

They were doable on 10man (And at one point you could even 40-man them but that was smashed in like 1.1 or earlier) but they were tuned for 5 people.

The mentality of the game is not the same as it was 7-8 years ago. Now dungeons are a stepping stool to raiding, not a place to go for casuals. Many of the instances/raids in Pre-BC were tuned for less people then you could physically bring it (Ony was tuned for 25 people, UBRS 10, other instances 5). People just chose to do them with 40/15/10 because they wanted it to be easy and because you could generally do it without overlapping classes/specs so everyone gets loot.

[Otimus]

Wooo woo.. hold your horse. Stop making it sounds like forming a group is worse than LFD.

I keep trying to beat it into your head that forming a group is game play that is half of the process of doing a dungeon that add to the overal experience, excitement, and fun at the end.

...Why don't you get this?

You keep saying "the process of group forming kills the game and is not fun"...then you go on to claim you "love PvE" despite reject group forming outright. I say you're a liar.

I say you're not a PvE lover or a PvP and PvE lover. All PvE lover love the same thing, that is group forming and doing the dungeon/raid afterward. You're plain straight up lying. You belong to another context and clearly not PvE if you hate group forming, clearly.

All PvEer LOVE group forming.

Stop trying to pretend to be a PvE lover.

As for hating on PvP player? no, all I'm saying is that PvP lovers who ONLY makes up 1/10 or 2/10 of WoW's population shouldn't be in this discussion about how PvE should work. It doesn't concern them.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 03:33 AM ----------



Did they say anything about how all the players didn't get to do raid but they were working feverishly toward it? maybe completing Kara or Gruul or got foot into anything less than SSC?

Did they say anything about players loving the thrill of working toward the end game raid by working to get pre-raid gear? did Blizzard analyze this human factor?

Try to find out if people loved the PvE style despite not getting into much?

How about you tell me some of this data instead of quoting blizzard's looking at hardcold number and not interpret it in a humane way?

OHHH only 5% player got to see it... they must HATE it OHHH...

They need to try to figure out if ppl loved it or hate it to begin with. I want to see data on this, not blind assumption based on number.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 03:36 AM ----------



Bro... your 2 cent talked about some positive for hte old stuff but...

...you didn't rlly say anything about what excite and give you fun in the current game or in the past game. You're not mentioning anything about excitement and fun being a motivation for you to want a game to go a certain way.

...It sounds just a little like you saying you just want to do thing, free of them evoking any excitement/fun emotion from your brain, like working at the cashier. Like you'd rather have things to do, regardless if they provide the feeling of fun and excitement or not.

....you responded to what I said, by listing some raids :x Even as an entry raid or whatever, very few people even did Kara back then, so you know.

Very few people raided. Period. In any form or fashion. At. All. AT. ALL. AS IN, A VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERY Low percent of people participated in that activity in so much as even standing foot in the damned instance and killing a single boss. Almost none of the players did that. It was a highly niche activity that required, AND STILL REQUIRES, a level of dedication that most people don't want to do. EVEN when raiding was at it's most open, with Dragon Soul and ICC, with their super high nerfs, and being fairly easy raids, only about 20-30% of the total player base even killed a single boss in those at the END of their respective expansions.

Hell, get this. Even with considerable ability to solo old raids, or do them with a few people now, stuff is still barely done. By and large, people have shown they have very little interest in engaging in that content. Raiding practically was at an empass at the end of Cataclysm where either it'd of been changed entirely, forced to be sub-funded content, or they had to find a way to justify the expenses on that by finding a way to usher a major number of people into versions of that content. They chose the latter. Seriously. What else COULD they do? If you go back to the way things were, most people would get to the level cap, and then essentially have nothing they'd want to do. That was a problem. Blizzard has admitted this was a problem. A large part of it is how easy they've made leveling up. the other part was simply making stuff too quick to do, and not offering a variety of things to do.

Hell, let's not single PVE out either. Did you know that participation in RBGs and Arena is actually really, really, really low? While participation in the scoffed at Random BGs is really, really high? People just flat out don't want to bother with manual grouping. It calls for a level of socializing that most people don't want to, and aren't willing to do in a videogame, outside of a guild, and, get this, the amount of guilds that actually do scheduled grouped activities like that? Actually really low.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 01:34 PM ----------

I don't even know where to begin this post is just atrocious.

When you state a number as a fact, it is not rhetorical. Looking at your post im actualy quite curious if you can do math. ASSUMEING the numbers you pulled out of your ass were accurate PVP players would account for roughly 66%% of the community. Again according to YOUR numbers.

Pure PVE players =1/3-3.3/10-33%

Pure PVP players = 1/3-3.3/10-33%

PVE and PVP = 1/3-3.3/10-33%


But that math is completely irrelevant since you made up the numbers, since you have no data to make these assertions on, your claims have no standing.
such as the "there aren't as many pure PvP loving ppl as PvE lover okay".

I can tell you right now, we don't like to pve the same way. From what i've read on your posts you like to stand in trade chat for several ours to finally form a group to do dungeons which you claim is "part of the fun".

Not everyone enjoys to pve the same way, some hardcore guilds like to raid every night for several hours, my guild raids twice a week for a few hours each of those nights. The fact that my guild shares different raid times than other guilds is enough proof to know that not everyone enjoys to pve the same way.

The no true Scotsman fallacy is as follows: The no true Scotsman is a fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.

To make a retort to the baby thing; you don't seem to understand what an opinion is. There is no such thing as a "right" opinion. The fact that you might see a baby as adorable is completely subjective. The fact that you think your opinion is "right" tells me that you lack basic logical thinking skills.

The fact that everyone's genetic makeup is different means that everyone is different. Sure some people's interests might align but they are in fact different people. There have actually been studies of genetic clones being completely different as well but alas irrelevant to our arguement.

If english is indeed his first language (he never would respond about that), going by that fact, it'd be pretty dubious to assume he's capable of math or logical reasoning :x

[Ruck]

It's better now

[LairenyX]

I don't even know where to begin this post is just atrocious.

When you state a number as a fact, it is not rhetorical. Looking at your post im actualy quite curious if you can do math. ASSUMEING the numbers you pulled out of your ass were accurate PVP players would account for roughly 66%% of the community. Again according to YOUR numbers.

Pure PVE players =1/3-3.3/10-33%

Pure PVP players = 1/3-3.3/10-33%

PVE and PVP = 1/3-3.3/10-33%


But that math is completely irrelevant since you made up the numbers, since you have no data to make these assertions on, your claims have no standing.
such as the "there aren't as many pure PvP loving ppl as PvE lover okay".

I can tell you right now, we don't like to pve the same way. From what i've read on your posts you like to stand in trade chat for several ours to finally form a group to do dungeons which you claim is "part of the fun".

Not everyone enjoys to pve the same way, some hardcore guilds like to raid every night for several hours, my guild raids twice a week for a few hours each of those nights. The fact that my guild shares different raid times than other guilds is enough proof to know that not everyone enjoys to pve the same way.

The no true Scotsman fallacy is as follows: The no true Scotsman is a fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. Sentences such as "all members of X have desirable trait Y" then become tautologies, because Y becomes a requirement of membership in X.

To make a retort to the baby thing; you don't seem to understand what an opinion is. There is no such thing as a "right" opinion. The fact that you might see a baby as adorable is completely subjective. The fact that you think your opinion is "right" tells me that you lack basic logical thinking skills.

The fact that everyone's genetic makeup is different means that everyone is different. Sure some people's interests might align but they are in fact different people. There have actually been studies of genetic clones being completely different as well but alas irrelevant to our arguement.

Why are you pulling out technicality again? I'm just saying:

1) There are more PvE lover than pure PVE lover.

You keep arguing with me that we don't all love PvE the same way... but I'm telling you that we do. We ALL love PvE the same way. After enough observation about how we're all the same this is just true. There's this misconception you keep saying:

1) You think spending hours LFG is fun then do it but you're different.

I did not say this. I said:

1) LGF contribute to the OVERALL excitement and fun in the process of doing a dungeon... at the end where you get the reward.

The reward feels more legit when you did the traveling of group forming jesus. I did not say forming group feels fun AT THE MOMENT U DO IT. It's like fighting a hard boss and wiping. WIping is not 2 fun... but its fun when u own the dude.

Dude, dude, dont even begin to disprove me that everyone likes PvE differently and bringing out your guild as an example. I told you the formula:

1) We want to use the community/have a community to form a group with who we will see again, not complete stranger.
2) we want to feel earned when we are reward at the end of the PvE process. (again part of it is forming group)

Because of the 2 I just mentioned, this is why I keep saying we're ALLLL the same in the way we like to experience the process of PvE.

You keep trying to disprove me by saying:

1) "No we're all different because my guild raid 2 night a week and hardcore guild raid every day"

...and you pretty much just back me up with the fact that the way in which we are the same are more significant than the way in which we are different. SRSLY dude.

I just argued against your "true scott man" saying again by giving the example how we are the same just now and this is more significant than how we are different, I.e you raid 2 hour and I raid 3. This is SOO irrelevant, this different is insignificant. The surface is not as important as what's deep underneed... deep in how we all feel the same toward PvE.

Yeah yeah your talk about clone being different only prove that the different is insignificant compare to the similarity.

Look, babies are adorable. The fact that a person say "baby is adorable" is an opinion... it is also fact that everyone find babies adorable... so if you're to say babies are not adorable, your opinion is not true. Geeze!

It's like one of those saying... all molecule are compounds but not all compounds are molecule... ermm this can be like some opinion are fact and no fact are opinion? ermm IDK.

Yeah, anyways I've argued sufficently enough that we all like PvE the same way.

If you think otherwise, you're just thinking that babies are not adorable and your opinion is wrong.

LOOLOLOLOL @statement: "your opinion is wrong"

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 12:56 AM ----------

Or stop force feeding LFR as a 25 man. Let smaller casual guilds go into LFR without having to group up with a bunch of other random people. Also, make it a little tougher. Jesus. LFR is so fucking easy.

No one deserve the abomination that is LFR. Everyone deserv to manually form a group and doing reasonably challegning content like those in Vanilla and TBC for dungeon and 10 man raid. Even if a content is some what "easy" the process of forming group make it seem a little harder. The process of forming the group bring up the 'average difficulty" of a dungeon... so although a boss fight is easy, the reward will feel earned because you went thru LFG, prolly.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 12:59 AM ----------

They were doable on 10man (And at one point you could even 40-man them but that was smashed in like 1.1 or earlier) but they were tuned for 5 people.

The mentality of the game is not the same as it was 7-8 years ago. Now dungeons are a stepping stool to raiding, not a place to go for casuals. Many of the instances/raids in Pre-BC were tuned for less people then you could physically bring it (Ony was tuned for 25 people, UBRS 10, other instances 5). People just chose to do them with 40/15/10 because they wanted it to be easy and because you could generally do it without overlapping classes/specs so everyone gets loot.

By fact and intended logic, yeah dungeon now a day is a stepping stone for raid... but it has always been this way, even when casual AND hardcore raider did them back then.

The only problem now a day is that heroic and dungeon dont feel like a steping stone. The only thing they feel like doing is merely an fast, easy, and accessible acitivity that I can do to kill my time; that's it... like "something to do because I paid for it". This is just detrimental to long term health of the game. Detriment to people's feeling toward it.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 01:09 AM ----------

....you responded to what I said, by listing some raids :x Even as an entry raid or whatever, very few people even did Kara back then, so you know.

Very few people raided. Period. In any form or fashion. At. All. AT. ALL. AS IN, A VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERYVERY Low percent of people participated in that activity in so much as even standing foot in the damned instance and killing a single boss. Almost none of the players did that. It was a highly niche activity that required, AND STILL REQUIRES, a level of dedication that most people don't want to do. EVEN when raiding was at it's most open, with Dragon Soul and ICC, with their super high nerfs, and being fairly easy raids, only about 20-30% of the total player base even killed a single boss in those at the END of their respective expansions.

Hell, get this. Even with considerable ability to solo old raids, or do them with a few people now, stuff is still barely done. By and large, people have shown they have very little interest in engaging in that content. Raiding practically was at an empass at the end of Cataclysm where either it'd of been changed entirely, forced to be sub-funded content, or they had to find a way to justify the expenses on that by finding a way to usher a major number of people into versions of that content. They chose the latter. Seriously. What else COULD they do? If you go back to the way things were, most people would get to the level cap, and then essentially have nothing they'd want to do. That was a problem. Blizzard has admitted this was a problem. A large part of it is how easy they've made leveling up. the other part was simply making stuff too quick to do, and not offering a variety of things to do.

Hell, let's not single PVE out either. Did you know that participation in RBGs and Arena is actually really, really, really low? While participation in the scoffed at Random BGs is really, really high? People just flat out don't want to bother with manual grouping. It calls for a level of socializing that most people don't want to, and aren't willing to do in a videogame, outside of a guild, and, get this, the amount of guilds that actually do scheduled grouped activities like that? Actually really low.

---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 01:34 PM ----------



If english is indeed his first language (he never would respond about that), going by that fact, it'd be pretty dubious to assume he's capable of math or logical reasoning :x

I only list those lower raid because I considered them doable... but if not then people could have been doing the heroic and dungeon. PvP, areana and RBG, is probably equal in difficulty to forming group for 10+> higher PvE content... not to mention that PvP against other intelligent opponent are more frustraitng.

But, again, I will insist that no matter at what level they do PvE, higher raid, lower raid, heroic, regular dungeon... people all want to experience PvE the same way. Fun, excitement, overall and reward that feel earned at the end. Forming group is crucial to this. I understand some people have no time to do higher raid but atleast the way they want to experience PvE is uniformed at their level.

I want some data showing:

1)People DID or DID NOT do PvE at lower level like heroic and regular dungeon in TBC, ignoring higher content.

I also want extra data to inquire how they preffer to do heroic and dungeon at lower end, instant Q, PoP, fast reward? or the process of LFG, appropriate difficulty, and earned reward.

My concern all along is that have a feeling of progression, regular dungeon ----> heroic. How far you get is up to you and your circumstance, family? work? no time to play? etc... but in this progression, we are all the same, so make the process of experiencing all the content the same.

I will put an exception for PvP because there's not rlly alot of role in PvP like tank etc. 10 DPS is as well as 3/3/3 dps, tank, healer/ 10 healer etc etc.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 01:15 AM ----------

Why are you pulling out technicality again? I'm just saying:

1) There are more PvE lover than pure PVE lover.

You keep arguing with me that we don't all love PvE the same way... but I'm telling you that we do. We ALL love PvE the same way. After enough observation about how we're all the same this is just true. There's this misconception you keep saying:

1) You think spending hours LFG is fun then do it but you're different.

I did not say this. I said:

1) LGF contribute to the OVERALL excitement and fun in the process of doing a dungeon... at the end where you get the reward.

The reward feels more legit when you did the traveling of group forming jesus. I did not say forming group feels fun AT THE MOMENT U DO IT. It's like fighting a hard boss and wiping. WIping is not 2 fun... but its fun when u own the dude.

Dude, dude, dont even begin to disprove me that everyone likes PvE differently and bringing out your guild as an example. I told you the formula:

1) We want to use the community/have a community to form a group with who we will see again, not complete stranger.
2) we want to feel earned when we are reward at the end of the PvE process. (again part of it is forming group)

Because of the 2 I just mentioned, this is why I keep saying we're ALLLL the same in the way we like to experience the process of PvE.

You keep trying to disprove me by saying:

1) "No we're all different because my guild raid 2 night a week and hardcore guild raid every day"

...and you pretty much just back me up with the fact that the way in which we are the same are more significant than the way in which we are different. SRSLY dude.

I just argued against your "true scott man" saying again by giving the example how we are the same just now and this is more significant than how we are different, I.e you raid 2 hour and I raid 3. This is SOO irrelevant, this different is insignificant. The surface is not as important as what's deep underneed... deep in how we all feel the same toward PvE.

Yeah yeah your talk about clone being different only prove that the different is insignificant compare to the similarity.

Look, babies are adorable. The fact that a person say "baby is adorable" is an opinion... it is also fact that everyone find babies adorable... so if you're to say babies are not adorable, your opinion is not true. Geeze!

It's like one of those saying... all molecule are compounds but not all compounds are molecule... ermm this can be like some opinion are fact and no fact are opinion? ermm IDK.

Yeah, anyways I've argued sufficently enough that we all like PvE the same way.

If you think otherwise, you're just thinking that babies are not adorable and your opinion is wrong.

LOOLOLOLOL @statement: "your opinion is wrong"

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 12:56 AM ----------



No one deserve the abomination that is LFR. Everyone deserv to manually form a group and doing reasonably challegning content like those in Vanilla and TBC for dungeon and 10 man raid. Even if a content is some what "easy" the process of forming group make it seem a little harder. The process of forming the group bring up the 'average difficulty" of a dungeon... so although a boss fight is easy, the reward will feel earned because you went thru LFG, prolly.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 12:59 AM ----------



By fact and intended logic, yeah dungeon now a day is a stepping stone for raid... but it has always been this way, even when casual AND hardcore raider did them back then.

The only problem now a day is that heroic and dungeon dont feel like a steping stone. The only thing they feel like doing is merely an fast, easy, and accessible acitivity that I can do to kill my time; that's it... like "something to do because I paid for it". This is just detrimental to long term health of the game. Detriment to people's feeling toward it.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 01:09 AM ----------

I only list those lower raid because I considered them doable... but if not then people could have been doing the heroic and dungeon. PvP, areana and RBG, is probably equal in difficulty to forming group for 10+> higher PvE content... not to mention that PvE against other intelligent opponent are more frustraitng.

But, again, I will insist that no matter at what level they do PvE, higher raid, lower raid, heroic, regular dungeon... people all want to experience PvE the same way. Fun, excitement, overall and reward that feel earned at the end. Forming group is crucial to this. I understand some people have no time to do higher raid but atleast the way they want to experience PvE is uniformed at their level.

I want some data showing:

1)People DID or DID NOT do PvE at lower level like heroic and regular dungeon in TBC, ignoring higher content.

I also want extra data to inquire how they preffer to do heroic and dungeon at lower end, instant Q, PoP, fast reward? or the process of LFG, appropriate difficulty, and earned reward.

My concern all along is that have a feeling of progression, regular dungeon ----> heroic. How far you get is up to you and your circumstance, family? work? no time to play? etc... but in this progression, we are all the same, so make the process of experiencing all the content the same.

I will put an exception for PvP because there's not rlly alot of role in PvP like tank etc. 10 DPS is as well as 3/3/3 dps, tank, healer/ 10 healer etc etc.

As for the math, I recognize what kind of environment where math is SERIOUS, like a PhD disseration. In this context, I only wanted to make a rhetorical point using fast estimation in my head to say:

1) Alot of people like PvE (regardless of actual number)
2) They preffer to do PvE the same way, group forming being part of the PROCESS of of PvE.
3) If this is changed to LFD then they're gonna quit the game eventually due to bordom and kill wow over time.

Bordom is going to be the death of WoW. Bordom come from design decision that provide more opportunity for boredom. You're going to argue "WoW is old when it die" but I'm going to say this is wrong and reason that bad design decision that result in bordom is what kills it.

Stop bringing up the technicality of math to point me out, it is NOT serious and irrelevant in this context... I am reasonable enough to not engage in serious mathematical discussion about wow.

Also, I have no incentive to do too much grammatic correcting with what I type here. This isn't an application to Medical school. I still do enough for you understand my intended mesage... but not completely because that's too tedious with the amount of respond I type... thought I don't get what point you're trying to make by getting me to answer if English is my first language? if it is so what? if it is not so what? geeze what's the god damned point. What I type so far is comprehensible enough to be understand.

...oh and be extra careful. You're border line calling me stupid/retarded insult with your "it's dubious to assume he's capable of math or logical reasoning".

If anything on the contrary, I'm more capable of concieving how human are and how they preffer interacting with this game than you. I just understand this better than you IMO.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 01:27 AM ----------

It's better now

No it is not. I don't even know what your motivations are.

I don't even know what was fun and exciting for you in the past or the present as the motivation for you to want the game to go a certain way.

It seems all you really want to say is "LFD is logical; hence it is better". No it is not. Some people seriously will say "because a product exist in 2013, it is better than those that exist in 2010" i'm not accusing you of this... but we can have people who dangerously think close to this to contaminate the discussion about what people like.

You can logically implement LFD after observing people talk about their frustrating... but logic here does not have a good conceptional understanding of how human work. It's good to talk about your problem... it's natural... but please dont implement LFD. We dont really want it.