Make raid for casual and do it right!

[RoKPaNda]

Honestly Scholo/Strath were much more fun in the intended 5-man difficulty than they were as the 10/15 man zergfests that people ran them as. Also eventually they were fixed so that you couldn't do that any more IIRC. It's been several years.

LFD is pretty much the best thing ever. Before LFD if you wanted to run something off peak hours you had to spam for like an hour to find people ... and if you were DPS, GOOD LUCK. Then once everyone actually got to the instance about 50% of the time someone would decide they didn't really want to run the instance and bail. Then it was back to spamming. OH BOY SO FUN!

LFR is great too. Kind of sucks for the hardcore raiders for the first tier of the expansion, but going forward it should have very little appeal to them and lots of appeal for the casual players. Good stuff all around.

My only complaint is that the LFD tool killed off any sense of community in the game, but I think it was worth it.

[Terahertz]

The problem is making LFR setting the same setting as normal/hardcore raiding. I feel like I'm wasting my time for "bad" gear. I feel like I'm wasting my time when I could just be doing the real thing.

Having LFR kills my mentality of doing normal raiding. You're saying I don't have to do LFR and just do normal? well I don't want to do either simply because LFR exist.

Then why AREN'T you doing the real thing? If you want casual gameplay AND have the best gear in the game, then you're playing THE WRONG GAME. It annoys me SO MUCH that people are trying to change games into -their- liking while said game might not be FOR them.

Seriously though. You can't expect getting the same gear as others when you're not putting the same effort/time as others.

[LairenyX]

Then why AREN'T you doing the real thing? If you want casual gameplay AND have the best gear in the game, then you're playing THE WRONG GAME. It annoys me SO MUCH that people are trying to change games into -their- liking while said game might not be FOR them.

Seriously though. You can't expect getting the same gear as others when you're not putting the same effort/time as others.

MAN... IDK... I just DK!

[LairenyX]

Uhh, what, people regularly finished those vanilla dungeons their first run through, do you really consider farming for T0 set for months as content?

IDK... but after 8/8... I think your resume is pretty good for MC.

[Fenixdown]

IDK... but after 8/8... I think your resume is pretty good for MC.

Do you even know what the quest chain took?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Dungeon_Set_2

If you completed all of that your resume looked good for NAXX, dude. Most people got stuck on quest #10. There was a whole 19 other ones after that, and you had to spend an extra probably 500 gold to get them finished.

Just please stop talking about things you clearly never understood. "Your resume was impressive for MC..." most people that finished this chain had MC on FARM before they completed this. MC was more casual friendly than the Tier 0.5 chain. C'mon, man.

[rated]

LFD is pretty much the best thing ever.

LFR is great too.

No. LFD and LFR are both one of the most amazing and worse things blizzard have implemented into the game. With that said the only perk to these tools is making finding a group for something easier and catering to casuals who don't want to raid. The drawbacks though ? Do you want me to list them alphabetically for you ?

[Demeia]

Do you even know what the quest chain took?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Dungeon_Set_2

If you completed all of that your resume looked good for NAXX, dude. Most people got stuck on quest #10. There was a whole 19 other ones after that, and you had to spend an extra probably 500 gold to get them finished.

Just please stop talking about things you clearly never understood. "Your resume was impressive for MC..." most people that finished this chain had MC on FARM before they completed this. MC was more casual friendly than the Tier 0.5 chain. C'mon, man.

I had a paladin in my guild who wanted this. I believe we were in a mix of T2 and loot from AQ40 when he finally did it. I spent a night wiping with him on that boss. It really was certainly more difficult than most MC bosses.

[judgementofantonidas]

The problem is making LFR setting the same setting as normal/hardcore raiding. I feel like I'm wasting my time for "bad" gear. I feel like I'm wasting my time when I could just be doing the real thing.

Having LFR kills my mentality of doing normal raiding. You're saying I don't have to do LFR and just do normal? well I don't want to do either simply because LFR exist.

nope. you are wasting your time for NO gear. there is an 80% or greater chance that each boss will drop squat for you in LFR.

[Drayarr]

Looking for raid is for you casual people.

[Dubalicious]

With my thinking that everyone is the same I think alot of ppl is gonna quit by 2015 if they keep going like this, and I think I wont have that WoW back.

So we are all the next WoW killer, and you're here to save us?

Sounds about right based on your posts.

We are all not the same. For example, I don't find many babies to be adorable and I enjoy medium-well steak. It's almost like we're two completely different people - hard to believe right?!?

[Sephius]

I have read every post in this thread and have come up with 2 things.

1) the OP is not a native english speaker, therefor he has trouble telling when people are sarcastic, as ESL people have a hard time picking up on that.

2) OP is trolling the crap out of everyone.

[Stormspellz]

They were 10 man in Vanilla not 5 man what are you talking about?

They were made for the casual. People did them because they were casual.

they were both, they started as 10 man but got altered to 5 mans only later, and people did them because that was the only source of gear for most of classic, till MC was puggable and zg / aq 20 was released.

[LairenyX]

Do you even know what the quest chain took?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Dungeon_Set_2

If you completed all of that your resume looked good for NAXX, dude. Most people got stuck on quest #10. There was a whole 19 other ones after that, and you had to spend an extra probably 500 gold to get them finished.

Just please stop talking about things you clearly never understood. "Your resume was impressive for MC..." most people that finished this chain had MC on FARM before they completed this. MC was more casual friendly than the Tier 0.5 chain. C'mon, man.

Dude, I'mmmmaa just sayyyyinnn mmmmhhkayy?? I''mmmmmaaa just sayyinnnn....

I have to admit. I underestimated the quest chain a little bit for DS 0.5. I would have been spazzzing my muslce just for the 8/8 Dungeon Set 0 drop.

...but all that you say did put me to tear. How awesome this game was. This kind of difficulty would put you on the edge of you sear after you finally finish the quest and get your gear. Not only will the "earned" feeling give you a heart attack out of joy, the difficulty of forming a group and succeeding after a bunch of fails is what keep the content fresh and new. It's not mindless as doing something fast, finish it easily, getting your loot and you're stuck in the city running in circle out of bordom.

Forming a group and failing but craving to do that dungeon and having that content available longer is not the same as doing LFR, finishing in a day, then having nothing else to do.

You're saying you get stuck at quest 10, you're saying it cost gold, and saying there was lots to do... but isn't that the point!? you always have something to do even if the content you're is pre-raid. You sound like you're advocating "ohh thing shouldn't be this long or difficult and everyone should get their stuff fast and easy like LFR's mindlessness".

If people have MC farmed before they finish the chain then of COURSE they will. You're in a 40 man raid, your priority are set to 40 man. There's 39 other people that meet regularly to ACCELERATE the process of doing MC and higher raid content. Of course you're going to finish MC faster. I am especially in tear how they made the casual content on equal footing as 40 man.

Now consider a casual who ISN"T in a 40 man guild to do MC... how will they finish and have MC on farm before they finish their dungeon set 0.5? I mean if you're in 40 man raid guild... why are you doing dungeon set 0.5 anyways lol.

...Well anyways, that quest chain was epic. It evoked fun and excitement in the overall process. Kept thing fresh, new, and gave you something to do all the time with no easy chance of boredom. Not now a day... where you're done fast and AFKing at the city. Just forming a group alone and spaming "LFM" is better than sitting idle IMO.

BTW... I have 2 admit, if you get your dungeon 0.5... it would be cool to whisper a top guild's guild leader and be like "yo inv me, I got DS 0.5".

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 10:07 PM ----------

No. LFD and LFR are both one of the most amazing and worse things blizzard have implemented into the game. With that said the only perk to these tools is making finding a group for something easier and catering to casuals who don't want to raid. The drawbacks though ? Do you want me to list them alphabetically for you ?

I think the burden would be too much to bear.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 10:08 PM ----------

I had a paladin in my guild who wanted this. I believe we were in a mix of T2 and loot from AQ40 when he finally did it. I spent a night wiping with him on that boss. It really was certainly more difficult than most MC bosses.

If ya'll spend less time doing AQ40 and more time doing the quest ya'll would have finish it sooner. The fact that it only took you ONE NIGHT of doing show that the Dungeon Set 0.5 is prolly a bit easier than 40 man raid.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 10:09 PM ----------

Looking for raid is for you casual people.

NO, looking for raid is an activity that make people feel BORED at the game faster. Casual had their casual content in vanilla in term of dungeon set 0 and 0.5. Now THATS the stuff that don't bore you.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 10:23 PM ----------

So we are all the next WoW killer, and you're here to save us?

Sounds about right based on your posts.

We are all not the same. For example, I don't find many babies to be adorable and I enjoy medium-well steak. It's almost like we're two completely different people - hard to believe right?!?

Yes, I'mma prophet.

...And you are not right that we are the next WoW killer. It is the game designer that are the next killer by making this game boring. They need to ask questions like "what evoke fun and excitement" rather than "what is merely an activity that occupy you but doesn't feel fun and exciting"

1) Not finding babies adorable
2) Medium-well vs medium rare

Do you know the implication of what you're saying?!

It's like you're saying PvE is PVE...but...

... PvE normal/heroic is rare
...PVE LFR is medium-well

Since rare and well taste delicious... you're saying PvE LFR evoke the same fun and excitement as PvE normal/heroic.

Is this true or is this not true? why dont we start by you telling me if you find LFR fun and exciting.

My counter argument has always been the same. Medium well vs Medium-rare is like playing a warrior vs playing a paladin while raiding.

When the medium rare/medium well hit our taste bud, it taste good... like raiding as a paladin or warrior feels good. Now the concern is with what kind of PvE environment evoke that excitement and fun like the steak that evoke the tastiness...

Both steak themselves are mostly the same except with slight modification, this is equal to raiding as a warrior or paladin as I said before. However, to change the steak from meat to vegetarian look alike substitution is like changing from forming a group/doing a dungeon/joining a guild/doing normal raid to LFR.

You're not longer doing the slight modification anymore, you're changing the whole thing. You're no longer eating the steak, you're eating a FAKE steak. I'm telling you we all like our steak the same way (it being meat base) cause we're the same with the exception of those insignificant differences that shouldn't be the argument to justify a fake steak/LFR cause fake steak, like LFR, taste bad and is not fun/exciting.

But give me your opinion on if you find LFR fun and exciting.

...and ermmm, does it make more sense that forming group and doing a dungeon to LFR is like going from meat steak to a fake steak? or do you insist that a medium rare steak is to form a group + doing a dungeon while LFR is medium well steak?



---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 10:25 PM ----------

I have read every post in this thread and have come up with 2 things.

1) the OP is not a native english speaker, therefor he has trouble telling when people are sarcastic, as ESL people have a hard time picking up on that.

2) OP is trolling the crap out of everyone.

Who cares if my English speaking skill is primary or secondary. I'm surely not trolling. The whole concern here is to make WoW and experience that is fun and exciting again, not mindless, boring, fast, and easy that burn you out.

Your analysis doesn't let us go anywhere in the discussion.

[Rinoa]

Raids for casuals are called LFR if you have little time and you're uninterested in having a guild, or you're not good enough for normal modes. It can also be normal modes if you want to put in a littlebit of effort to join a guild and get decent at the game, or it can be heroic if you are a great player. There are guilds out there that have maintained world top 150~ while raiding only 7-8 hours a week. That's a very relaxed and casual schedual - they're just good players.

Casual doesn't mean bad. It means not having that much time.

Edit: http://www.wowprogress.com/?faction=...=&class=&spec=

Obviously Method raids more, but guilds like Group Therapy does exceptionally well and still only raid 2 days a week. This is a casual schedual.

[LairenyX]

Raids for casuals are called LFR if you have little time and you're uninterested in having a guild, or you're not good enough for normal modes. It can also be normal modes if you want to put in a littlebit of effort to join a guild and get decent at the game, or it can be heroic if you are a great player. There are guilds out there that have maintained world top 150~ while raiding only 7-8 hours a week. That's a very relaxed and casual schedual - they're just good players.

Casual doesn't mean bad. It means not having that much time.

Edit: http://www.wowprogress.com/?faction=...=&class=&spec=

Obviously Method raids more, but guilds like Group Therapy does exceptionally well and still only raid 2 days a week. This is a casual schedual.

That gives me some hope for seeing all content while raiding only 2 days I suppose.

[Rinoa]

Aye. As long as you do your best to learn how to become a great player in a short amount of time while playing you can be perfectly suited to maintain top-notch progress on a very lax schedual. From what I have read, a lot of people do not realise that for almost all players it's not time that is the constraining factor - it's skill.

[Mormolyce]

They have that, it's called LFR.

And 10m vanilla raids were just slightly larger dungeons. In fact they've been reformatted to dungeons now...

[Jackishi]

Aye. As long as you do your best to learn how to become a great player in a short amount of time while playing you can be perfectly suited to maintain top-notch progress on a very lax schedual. From what I have read, a lot of people do not realise that for almost all players it's not time that is the constraining factor - it's skill.

Exactly. My guild cleared MSV after about a month of raiding, but we'd only raided every Sunday. We'd have progressed further in if scheduling didn't wipe our raid out completely (everyone was either in college or raising kids at that point).

Casual never meant less skill, it just meant not playing the game 50+hours straight...which is what old Vanilla content practically demanded of you, half of which was spent spamming for groups to do long, boring content.

[velde046]

That's a big claim that you make:

.......

Your main point are as follows:

1) I only concern about people doing an activity. I don't care if the activity is fun or exciting.

Have you considered that maybe any attempt to prepare for raid via group forming and doing steping stone PvE may bring out more excitement and fun than just DOING an activity alone like LFR? Maybe people who never got to raid felt more excitement and fun from the game when they did it less than now where they're doing it like crazy? maybe people who raided 6 hours a weak found raiding more fun and exciting than people who raid 25 hours a week now via LFR?

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt, did not like it. Hanging out for sometimes several hours forming a group has nearly never been fun and usually was more the opposite.

I CLEARLY out right don't believe and reject your claims that people who do LFR enjoy it... and that people who do normal raiding and heroic dont enjoy it less because of the presence of LFR alone.

* Raises hand* Currently LFR raider and enjoying it mostly

1) You justify LFR because you claim "forming a group is not enjoyable".

and I keep saying:

1) Forming a group might not be enjoyable BY ITSELF if you're just looking at it but you have to put the OVERALLLLLL process of PVE where forming a group is half of the game play.

The by all means you enjoy the game you want to, don't say that others should like it too.... If I have an hour or two to play, I don't wanna be in a situation where forming the group would take away from the limited time if there is a more efficient method. Just do what you want to do in game and let others do what they want.

I don't fail to see anything, it is you who fails to see anything by not asking deeper questions and go beyond surface and scratches analysis and generalized thinking with NO context in mind.

Came across another post of yours and can only conclude that you yourself are the one that should be asking deeper questions etc, like:
- Why does it bother me that people like to run LFR
- What kind of right do i have to judge other people for not playing the way I want it to be
- Are the posts I make really smart or could they be considered stupid/ignorant (leaning towards the latter after reading your other post about how removal of LFR and Transmog would help double the amount of subs....
- What does it really take away from me if I just lep other people go about their business and let them play the way they want? What do I lose in the process?

[Djuntas]

Just make it like TBC model.

I was at times casual inn TBC, didn't stop me from raiding Karazhan etc.

Its about time blizzard brings back some off the things that worked inn other exspansions, that they removed.