Thunder-forged and the world first race

[bklutz]

With higher drop rates in 25m it seems like it's affecting the world first race for heroic versions, seeing as the top 5 or 6 are all 25m with Paragon ( a 10m) coming in behind them. Personally, I don't think 10m raiding guilds should be hindered of world/realm first kills. What are your thoughts/feelings on this?

[Squishei]

IMO, doesn't really matter too much, other things that greatly affect progression are already implemented such as a weapon being a greater upgrade over a ring.

[Deleted]

The worlds first race is about 25 man guilds. 10 man doesn't matter because it's an entirely different thing and can't be compared to 25 at all.

Less of it. -Azshira

[Deleted]

Tbh, I think it's likely more to do with the encounter tuning than the Thunderforged gear. I've seen quite a few posts discussing how under tuned the 25 mans feel compared to the 10 mans.
Still, having the extra gear certainly won't be doing their chances any harm.

[Deleted]

These guilds can pass any gear wall when doing enough tries.

But since it's a race 10m guilds stand no chance this tier because of how overpowered loot in 25m has become. Even if paragon also farmed 25m normals last week, you're missing out 12bosses where 25m are getting x2.5 ilvl541 items, more items and less wasted loot from the 7bosses with +-20item loot table and 5 with +-15.
And to make matters worse Raden has limited tries which gives greater advantage to the best geared guild and not the most persevering guild.

[Sesshou]

I honestly can't see it being a big deal for the race. They had at most 1 week of gear (and working on a second as they race this week). Aside from Paragon doing it in t14, the fact that 25m guilds (who are serious about winning the race) generally feed their mains a crap load of extra gear by running them with alts, where as 10m guilds don't seem to do that, would make a much bigger difference.

[Gilian]

There are many reason why you shouldn't have 10 man and 25 man in the same race. I don't understand why people still think they are.

They are not equal and they never will be. Get over it.

[Deleted]

So far, 10 man guilds are 2 bosses behind, so it's not so big problem yet, anyways people who don't differentiate between 10 and 25 man world first should also count Eastern servers into it...

[Nitros14]

That's why there's a 10-man world first and a 25-man world first. They're really not doing the same thing, I've raid lead both, very different challenges.

Not to say one is better but not really comparable.

[asharia]

if there was any argument before about whether or not the 2 could be compared, it has been put to bed.

10man already had a slightly harder time with loot. fewer items per raid member, and harsher rng.


the difference in thunderforged drop rates now just opens up too much of a gap. if 10man is tuned around the assumption that the raid is less geared, then it is actually easier, and there can't be a comparison.


if this thunderforged stuff happens next tier (whatever they decide to call it), then i wouldn't be surprised to see paragon go back to 25, or have most of it's members leave for other 25man guilds

[Ryme]

It seems more to be doing with encounter tuning than thunderforged gear.

[Tharkkun]

Blizzard doesn't care about your mystical world first competition. In their eyes 10 and 25m are the same and most people agree at this point. With increased thunderforged items wouldn't that make 10m harder?

[jsz]

I'm guessing that all the top 25man guilds going for 25man world firsts are the guilds putting together 3+ 25man alt runs and funneling gear to the raiders they plan to start heroic progression with.

10man guilds (from what I've seen) generally can't do that as much. Best they can do is clear normals on 25man with friends of the core 11-12 players and funnel the loot to the core.

[Kaidye]

The reason a lot of 10mans were significantly behind the top 25mans was the Council fight. On 10m, Paragon had to have a chat with a GM because the fight as it was implemented was unbeatable. Once they adjusted the fight, we saw Paragon and Moonz down it. It also looks like Gag Reflex even skipped the boss on heroic to move on to Tortos because it was either that buggy or that impossible. Paragon has already caught up to the rest of the 25 mans and is working on Durumu.

These guilds are very used to completing fights while significantly undergeared compared to what the encounter is tuned for. The gear might help 25s slightly, but it won't hinder the 10s (or at least Paragon) at all.

[Ryme]

The reason a lot of 10mans were significantly behind the top 25mans was the Council fight. On 10m, Paragon had to have a chat with a GM because the fight as it was implemented was unbeatable. Once they adjusted the fight, we saw Paragon and Moonz down it. It also looks like Gag Reflex even skipped the boss on heroic to move on to Tortos because it was either that buggy or that impossible. Paragon has already caught up to the rest of the 25 mans and is working on Durumu.

These guilds are very used to completing fights while significantly undergeared compared to what the encounter is tuned for. The gear might help 25s slightly, but it won't hinder the 10s (or at least Paragon) at all.

Any source for this information?

[Pandacally]

Any source for this information?

If you look at the evidence present, council 10er was nerfed already once (HP reduction in both normal and heroic and only in 10m!) because it was overtuned, it is not hard to imagine that even after the HP adjustment, it was still overtuned (at least for one of the "supposed" easier beginner bosses). My guess is, that there was some kind of mechanic that was unbeatable/not reliably beatable in the 10m raid size.

[Ryme]

If you look at the evidence present, council 10er was nerfed already once (HP reduction in both normal and heroic and only in 10m!) because it was overtuned, it is not hard to imagine that even after the HP adjustment, it was still overtuned (at least for one of the "supposed" easier beginner bosses). My guess is, that there was some kind of mechanic that was unbeatable/not reliably beatable in the 10m raid size.

Perhaps, but it's still speculation at this point, especially the "Paragon had to have a chat with a GM" part.

[ZakAtack]

This was brought up a long time ago when someone tweeted GC asking for loot to not be Thunderforged until the WF race was over. His response was that weapon drops are a bigger swing than 6 ilvls on a bracer or something like that, and those have always dropped for some and not others during the race.

As for Paragon, tuning aside, they went 10m, they can't really complain about getting less loot, IMO.

[Sesshou]

Blizzard doesn't care about your mystical world first competition. In their eyes 10 and 25m are the same and most people agree at this point. With increased thunderforged items wouldn't that make 10m harder?

That depends on the tuning. In WotLK, 25m was tuned to be a lot harder than 10m because they expected your ilvl to be much higher if you were doing 25m. If they balanced the numbers around the gear level they expect each size to be at, then no, it wouldn't make 10m harder (aside from I guess not being able to cheese that mechanic on council on 10m, although I'd say its a safe bet council will get some tweaks after the race).

[Bloodletters]

With higher drop rates in 25m it seems like it's affecting the world first race for heroic versions, seeing as the top 5 or 6 are all 25m with Paragon ( a 10m) coming in behind them. Personally, I don't think 10m raiding guilds should be hindered of world/realm first kills. What are your thoughts/feelings on this?

In tier 14 there were 3 10 man guilds that finished in the top 20, when there was no Thunderforged gear. The best guilds in the world are mostly 25 man, that's just a fact.

---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 03:20 PM ----------

if there was any argument before about whether or not the 2 could be compared, it has been put to bed.

10man already had a slightly harder time with loot. fewer items per raid member, and harsher rng.


the difference in thunderforged drop rates now just opens up too much of a gap. if 10man is tuned around the assumption that the raid is less geared, then it is actually easier, and there can't be a comparison.


if this thunderforged stuff happens next tier (whatever they decide to call it), then i wouldn't be surprised to see paragon go back to 25, or have most of it's members leave for other 25man guilds

Paragon doesn't raid at the 25 man setting anymore because they cannot compete with the top world guilds as a 25 man guild. They lost too many members and the people who join their guild have to speak Finish, be excellent at World of Warcraft and capable of spending exorbitant amounts of time playing the game. IF Paragon goes to 25 man next tier its because they probably feel they are capable of fielding a world first 25 man guild, not because of extra gear.