Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[RoKPaNda]

I can't speak for any other raiders, just myself .. I stopped really raiding sometime during WLK when I took my first several month WoW break. Came back for Cataclysm, played for two months, stopped playing until 4.3 (I think it was 4.3?) and then played for a few months before taking another break until MoP. With my real life schedule being what it is I can't really commit to a set raid schedule, and being completely honest I don't really have any interest in it anymore, I can just do LFR at my leisure and that's good enough for me. The game doesn't attempt to herd people into raiding anymore, notice all the non-raid stuff there is to do. I feel that it's mostly since the game doesn't herd people towards raiding, they just don't. I know that even when I was raiding in a server first guild in vanilla and BC I didn't really enjoy it, I just did it because that's what there was to do in WoW.

The game just doesn't promote raiding, aside from LFR, anymore and that's not really a bad thing.

[helheim]

and in typical mmo-c fashion, a thread about declining number of raiding populous turns into an argument about 10m vs 25m. carry on...

[Firecrest]

and in typical mmo-c fashion, a thread about declining number of raiding populous turns into an argument about 10m vs 25m. carry on...

And in typical MMO-C fashion, “this place sucks but I’m here anyway” guy is going to point it out for us.


I quit for a number of reasons. I didn’t mind making the major time commitment it took to be a part of a bleeding edge progression guild – however, the reward slowly became not worth the effort. The reward in this case consisted of a sense of accomplishment in a setting I liked with people who were fun to hang out with. All three of those things degraded steadily throughout Cata and completely died in MoP.

Honestly, the biggest thing for me was the people. The friends I made in game were the reason I logged on. Despite the fact that we did an okay job keeping our roster full, the core group of people that had been my friends for years got smaller and smaller. The last few didn’t buy MoP and neither did I.

They all left for varying reasons. But I left because they were gone. This is what Blizzard would have to fix in order to get me back but is something they will have a hard time doing. Likely is impossible.

[helheim]

And in typical MMO-C fashion, “this place sucks but I’m here anyway” guy is going to point it out for us.

says the guy who quit but is still here posting anyway...

30 pages of this thread have devolved the discussion from why there are less raiders to 10m vs 25m. you can be ignorant about that all you want, but it's right there in front of you.

[Rajadog20]

Honestly, a lot went to Rift. LFR really killed raiding for a lot of people. Since they have already seen the content, they are less motivated to do the actual raids, as they are just harder, hence less people raiding. I never said less people playing the game, I said less people are interested in doing the higher difficulty settings of raids since they have already seen the content. Rift is currently the only game out there that matches WoWs raiding content in terms of Quality and Quantity.

[WskyDK]

Honestly, a lot went to Rift. LFR really killed raiding for a lot of people. Since they have already seen the content, they are less motivated to do the actual raids, as they are just harder, hence less people raiding. I never said less people playing the game, I said less people are interested in doing the higher difficulty settings of raids since they have already seen the content. Rift is currently the only game out there that matches WoWs raiding content in terms of Quality and Quantity.

I miss Rift raids (all my friends quit and I got bored) I'd take them over WoW raids all day everyday.

[Keoren]

Looking at wow progress 7 of the top 20 guilds are 10 man, out of these 7 none have killed lei shen except paragon.
I would say at least for Lei shen you can't argue the fact it is harder in 10 man.

Paragon has not exactly said anything about the fight on 10-man format, and it is quite safe to say that very few people actually know how good the other 10-man guilds really are. Many of them don't have a very long history at the top while many of the 25-man guilds have a pretty well established standing. Practically all of the comparisons at this point are speculative. Not many people who have tried one of the two encounter can even make a proper judgement regarding the difference between the sizes, and those people have not spoken up.

Regarding your point about more guilds raiding 10-man yet a smaller percentage of them having downed the encounter (and heroic encounters in general, in fact), it is worth noting that the 25-man guilds are much more hardcore on average. That is how many of them have survived. Returning to my previous point, very few of the historical top guilds have also shifted away from 25-man. They have strong rosters and many of the top players gravitate towards them.

Bottom line still remains that there isn't really even much point in comparing the difficulties. They are different.

[Glorious Leader]

and in typical mmo-c fashion, a thread about declining number of raiding populous turns into an argument about 10m vs 25m. carry on...

If your 10 man raid is to difficult are you more likely to go through the HASSLE of building up an entire new 25 man raid group from the ground up or say fuck it and run lfr. The answer should be fairly obvious.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 11:47 PM ----------

Bottom line still remains that there isn't really even much point in comparing the difficulties. They are different.

No their is a point. The point is that they don't favor 10 mans, they're too hard and that's why less people are raiding normals. Instead of building their guilds up to roll 25 man and deal with the stupid hassle they just say fuck it and roll lfr.

Saying 25 man guilds are "more hardcore" misses the point entirely. It doesn't matter how hardcore or not they are, i'm sure their are hardcore 10 man guilds but that hasn't stopped the decline in raiding. It takes ALOT MORE skill to be a "hardcore" 10 man guild because 10 man raids are tuned so shitty. The one size fits all philosophy is so piss poor. 10 man raids SHOULD be the casual players raid of choice. They aren't.

[Sivick]

i dunno about the rest of the raiders but i'm "retired". I got the hardcore raiding out of my system in BC and WotLK when raiding was RAIDING. LFG is fine with me these days, especially since most of my old friends have left the game. I am just going to coast by till i get to burn oggrimar and then i'll be finished.

[Osmeric]

Honestly, a lot went to Rift.

Source? I don't know a single person that went to Rift. I actually bought the Rift expansion and tried it, after having played Rift for most of 2011. The world seemed devoid of other players, and the game controls and graphics felt terrible compared to WoW (the snappiness of WoW's engine is perhaps the single biggest factor in the success of the game.)

[Otimus]

Cold hard eh? Unsurprisingly you fail to grasp the meaning of "fact". Second-hand opinion remains opinion and does not get elevated to "fact".

You have to remember, this is the same guy whom in another topic denied that when Blizzard said there's more people who don't reach the level cap than do, because of the large amount of max level players in his guild. Tunnel vision, yo. Tunnel vision to the extreme.

[Keoren]

they're too hard and that's why less people are raiding normals.

This has nothing to do with the difference between the two difficulties. If this is an issue, it is an issue regarding the 10-man raid design. Whether 25-man is easier or harder in comparison is not a factor.

Saying 25 man guilds are "more hardcore" misses the point entirely. It doesn't matter how hardcore or not they are, i'm sure their are hardcore 10 man guilds but that hasn't stopped the decline in raiding. It takes ALOT MORE skill to be a "hardcore" 10 man guild because 10 man raids are tuned so shitty. The one size fits all philosophy is so piss poor. 10 man raids SHOULD be the casual players raid of choice. They aren't.

It was a response to the points he was making and not the declining raid population. I will also refrain from discussing whether the 10-man heroics are easier or harder more than I already have. This thread is already heading off the topic as it is. Everyone is better off just accepting that both of the formats face different challenges and are different in general.

the snappiness of WoW's engine is perhaps the single biggest factor in the success of the game.

Having tried several different MMORPGs in the past, starting from Ultima Online, I can confidently say that World of Warcraft has by far the best engine for raiding out of the bunch. If the interest in raiding is low in WoW, it is a good indication that the raiding culture and mentality on a global scale might not be as relevant as it used to be.

[potis]

Source? I don't know a single person that went to Rift. I actually bought the Rift expansion and tried it, after having played Rift for most of 2011. The world seemed devoid of other players, and the game controls and graphics felt terrible compared to WoW (the snappiness of WoW's engine is perhaps the single biggest factor in the success of the game.)

Actually i can back him up.

While raiding in Rift for about 14 months or so pretty much every raider i had/spoke/met/played with was some sort of either WoW or AoC ex-player with something like 98% WoW players and 2% AoC ones.

Rift had "a lot" raiders for a new non-WoW game up to at least the first 6 months before it started having a bigger decline with all the newer games coming out and WoW patches etc.

And awesome engines is usually the main goal for Blizzard since forever, its the reason many people cant jump games easily after a Blizzard one cause the "Cartoonish style" engines are very fluid.

[Trassk]

What's the point? I raided for 7 years but come mop I can see all the content and "raid" when I feel like it in lfr. But! The main reason I stopped raiding was the fact that bosses are starting to get very boring. Reusing old raid mechanics from fights in years past is not fun. Doing a boss that is doing the same move with a different name that a boss did 4 years ago is bullshit.

sadly this is it. Boss mechanics really do feel like there recycled moves and mechanics from before. You know exactly what to do on bosses right away because you've seen it all before.
Blizzard really are running out of ideas. I wish dear god they would have just called off anymore expansions after wrath and just made WC4 or wow2.

[Belize]

sadly this is it. Boss mechanics really do feel like there recycled moves and mechanics from before. You know exactly what to do on bosses right away because you've seen it all before.
Blizzard really are running out of ideas. I wish dear god they would have just called off anymore expansions after wrath and just made WC4 or wow2.

Well there's really only so mechanics you can do in a game like WoW so of course they're going to be reused. Plus whenever something new happens, like faction champs, EVERYONE hates it because it's not the same old tank and spank deal. Which is ironic imo. I'm not defending raiding it's just a side comment

[rebecca191]

I was a pretty hardcore raider for a long time, 6 years, in a US top 100 guild for about 95% of that time. By the time I quit I was so burned out from Cataclysm that I had no interest in trying another game. Once in a while I read this forums to see what's changed, but I guess I am finally at the point of accepting that the game I liked and want to play again won't be coming back. Of the other hardcore raiders I used to play with and still talk to that have quit, about half of the quitters left the game from general burnout and the other half from disliking the direction the game was going in.

[Garehn Vi-Brittania]

Knowing that tank n spank lfr fights give slightly worse gear than normal mode that actually has mechanics just killed my motivation to raid.

[Osmeric]

Actually i can back him up.

While raiding in Rift for about 14 months or so pretty much every raider i had/spoke/met/played with was some sort of either WoW or AoC ex-player with something like 98% WoW players and 2% AoC ones.

But that was back when Rift released. This thread is about the decline during MoP.

I doubt many raiders went to back to Rift for the expansion.

[Millie]

the snappiness of WoW's engine is perhaps the single biggest factor in the success of the game.

This is something that I've always struggled to put into words when describing a factor about WoW's engine.

When I've played other MMOs such as Rift, Aion, TERA, SWTOR and GW2 (A game I very much enjoy, but still have this issue with) I find that my character feels like they're ankle deep in molasses as far as movement is concerned. In WoW I move instantly , I can turn on a dime, ect. Many other MMOs I feel so much more restricted or even delayed in my character's responce to my controls, "snappiness" so do speak.

[Otimus]

This is something that I've always struggled to put into words when describing a factor about WoW's engine.

When I've played other MMOs such as Rift, Aion, TERA, SWTOR and GW2 (A game I very much enjoy, but still have this issue with) I find that my character feels like they're ankle deep in molasses as far as movement is concerned. In WoW I move instantly , I can turn on a dime, ect. Many other MMOs I feel so much more restricted or even delayed in my character's responce to my controls, "snappiness" so do speak.

Also, in newer MMOs, the mod support and general customization to the UI is, to put it nicely, piss poor. That's a factor too. At least for me.