1. #1321
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    WOW is the primary source of income for Blizzard and during the past two and half years it has lost almost a quarter of its customer base many other companies would have fired multiple personnel for such poor results that is all my comment meant. I made no mention of whether I think anyone should be fired or not.
    ok - got it. I guess I just think that the "many companies" don't practice good business practices. Blindly firing people for loss of money is not usually a good solution unless you have direct evidence that the loss was tied directly to those people.

  2. #1322
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Fixed that for you, as it's what's usually meant.
    The point I was making was the separation of factual observations of expected outcomes, and normative statements about the outcomes. "Is" vs. "ought".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #1323
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The point I was making was the separation of factual observations of expected outcomes, and normative statements about the outcomes. "Is" vs. "ought".
    I know what your point was, but it did not apply to what I was trying to say. I was just interpreting Pann's comment as he thought that someone "ought" to have been fired. He clarified that he did not think that. Instead, he was neutral on the subject, and just knew that many companies would blindly fire people when large losses happened.

    It was a minsinterpretation on my part.

  4. #1324
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    JP's are somewhat irrelevant for many, sure. But they're also not really relevant in this topic.

    Grinds aren't challenging content though. Blizzard wants you subbed, and to remain subbed, and to do that, they design content that makes you want to play often and consistently. This is nothing new, it's how MMOs have always operated. And when they don't, subs fluctuate, players feel like there's nothing to do, etc.

    And leveling in this, or any other expansion, isn't difficult. At all.
    In the past JP served as a pretty good way for the CASUAL PLAYER to catch up but more importantly as a way to reward him for the limited time he could invest. It is totally relevant.


    Difficulty isn't the issue. Time consumption is the issue. While normal raiding is skewed in terms of the difficulty, the rest of the game is equally as daunting for the casual player in terms of TIME TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. While that may not equal difficulty in the traditional sense of the word it does equal frustration and in the same fashion it does lock casual players out of alot of content in favor of hard cores who both have the skill, the time, and the actual care.

    WoW calling itself an MMO is a meaningless title to be honest. They could themselves adventure game for all I care. The fact is this expansion is potentially the least casual friendly expansion since TBC maybe even vanilla and more over it marks a signifcant departure from increasing casual accessibility to punitive and grindy playstyle that is imposing and presents a wall for the casual player.

    Lvling this expansion isn't difficult, but it is a pain in the fucking asshole. Mobs have to much hp, their aren't enough dungeons to break up the experience, their aren't enough different style quests to break up the experience, and on the whole it just takes to much time. Being bored is a pretty big challenge to overcome.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-18 at 04:46 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1325
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Lvling this expansion isn't difficult, but it is a pain in the fucking asshole. Mobs have to much hp, their aren't enough dungeons to break up the experience, their aren't enough different style quests to break up the experience, and on the whole it just takes to much time. Being bored is a pretty big challenge to overcome.
    Every time I leveled, it seemed like there were more different style quests in this expansion relative to any other. Are you sure people aren't getting bored just because they have been playing this same game for so long?

  6. #1326
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Every time I leveled, it seemed like there were more different style quests in this expansion relative to any other. Are you sure people aren't getting bored just because they have been playing this same game for so long?
    Their isn't. Cataclysm had far more variety. The only quest that stood out I can remember from mists is the quest where you snipe as the orc chick. The rest were all either follow the stupid panda, collect this, or kill that. And all of them took far to long to accomplish. In part beacuse mobs have to much hp but also because theirs to much god damn mob density. In Cataclysm I was rescuing bears out of trees, I was a gunner in a plane, I tamed a seahorse... I did a whole bunch of crap.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1327
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Every time I leveled, it seemed like there were more different style quests in this expansion relative to any other. Are you sure people aren't getting bored just because they have been playing this same game for so long?
    The problem I had with leveling in MoP is they increased the mob hp/player dps ratio. It felt like questing stuck in tar, it was so slow.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  8. #1328
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That may be true, but because you can do other (useful) things during the wait, the queue time does not actually count as wasted time. The total time spent is (time in LFR + time in other content), not (time in LFR + time in LFR queue + time in other content).
    It's wasted time if you're doing those other things merely to find something useful to do while you wait to do the real thing you actively want to do.

    I can read War and Peace or do a lot of productive things while in a line. It doesn't mean that time couldn't be better spent doing something else entirely and that I should appreciate the line instead of being annoyed by it.

    If the only time waster in game was LFR queues, it might be okay but it's not. But then again every minute of someone's time that is wasted in China is more money for Blizzard so I guess we better get used to it.

  9. #1329
    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    It's wasted time if you're doing those other things merely to find something useful to do while you wait to do the real thing you actively want to do.
    The person I was responding to was talking about the time required to cap VP. Scenario + heroic is a fine way to earn VP while waiting for LFR to pop. I easily cap VP on one character by thursday using this approach.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #1330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Raiding participation fell between ICC and Firelands as the population of every server fell, and guilds/PuGs tightened up their entry requirements to raid with them, leaving many more would-be-raiders out in the cold.

    They raided in WotLK because it was accessible, and the community decided that it wanted to start shutting these people out.
    Well blizzards change in lockout and bringing 10 man up to the difficulty of 25 man, of course lead to fewer being able to do the content. And of course this leads to the community only recruiting fit raiders. So yea they did take them with them anymore because it wasn't possible anymore because of the changes that blizzard had done.

  11. #1331
    Legendary! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Well blizzards change in lockout and bringing 10 man up to the difficulty of 25 man, of course lead to fewer being able to do the content. And of course this leads to the community only recruiting fit raiders. So yea they did take them with them anymore because it wasn't possible anymore because of the changes that blizzard had done.
    If you want to keep on playing the "And By Extension" card...

    The change in the lockout was because players were getting burned out on running 10-man and 25-man raids. All Blizzard really do nowadays is fix community problems (LFD, LFR) and provide content.
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  12. #1332
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Join a guild when the tier is over. You'll get at least a 1-2 week trial, which you should breeze through if your skill is as high as you claim.
    The problem is that gear >>>> skill A FREAKING LOT nowadays. And in the end of tier he would have something like 515-520 iLvl with crappy lfr weapon; and while on a test run with at least full normal + tf geared + some heroic + some tf heroic geared 530+ players his skill would be invisible. Also, him being a Ret paladin makes things even worse, since Ret atm is the worst plate dps class for 10m at least.

  13. #1333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    If you want to keep on playing the "And By Extension" card...

    The change in the lockout was because players were getting burned out on running 10-man and 25-man raids. All Blizzard really do nowadays is fix community problems (LFD, LFR) and provide content.
    Yea but they basically set themselves up for this again with LFR.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #1334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea but they basically set themselves up for this again with LFR.
    Which is why we'll probably see LFR put on the Normal lockout for loot (that is, if you kill a boss in LFR after you've killed him in Normal for the week, you're ineligible for loot).
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  15. #1335
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Which is why we'll probably see LFR put on the Normal lockout for loot (that is, if you kill a boss in LFR after you've killed him in Normal for the week, you're ineligible for loot).
    Considering how low normal raiding participation is at the moment I doubt they would do this.

  16. #1336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Which is why we'll probably see LFR put on the Normal lockout for loot (that is, if you kill a boss in LFR after you've killed him in Normal for the week, you're ineligible for loot).
    Yea I doubt that. To be honest I would probably unsub if they did that. Lfr represents a pretty good way to get some gear outside of the raid and it's not likely I can ge the 9 other players in my guild to go back and do heroic toes or heroic anything that isn't current tier.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #1337
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    The problem is that gear >>>> skill A FREAKING LOT nowadays. And in the end of tier he would have something like 515-520 iLvl with crappy lfr weapon; and while on a test run with at least full normal + tf geared + some heroic + some tf heroic geared 530+ players his skill would be invisible. Also, him being a Ret paladin makes things even worse, since Ret atm is the worst plate dps class for 10m at least.
    You only have to show potential, AKA good raid awareness and good mechanics (high uptime on spec specific buffs). When progression is over, most guilds are looking to improve their roster's talent pool, so they're much more lenient on gear.

  18. #1338
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    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    The problem is that gear >>>> skill A FREAKING LOT nowadays. And in the end of tier he would have something like 515-520 iLvl with crappy lfr weapon; and while on a test run with at least full normal + tf geared + some heroic + some tf heroic geared 530+ players his skill would be invisible. Also, him being a Ret paladin makes things even worse, since Ret atm is the worst plate dps class for 10m at least.
    Isn't this exactly what TBC elitist fanboys wanted?

  19. #1339
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Which is why we'll probably see LFR put on the Normal lockout for loot (that is, if you kill a boss in LFR after you've killed him in Normal for the week, you're ineligible for loot).
    Putting LFR on a lockout with normal will damage queue times, and really hurt pugs... I'm not sure Blizzard wants to do either thing.

    I'd say it might be reasonable to not have all bosses available on LFR perhaps. Maybe exclude the end boss of each tier. (?)

  20. #1340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Which is why we'll probably see LFR put on the Normal lockout for loot (that is, if you kill a boss in LFR after you've killed him in Normal for the week, you're ineligible for loot).
    I'm not sure I see a reason why they would wish to do that. More likely they'll continue to look for ways to get it through some very stubborn skulls that if you don't really want to do LFR, you don't have to but if you want to, it's OK.
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