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  1. #1361
    Deleted
    I do think it is cute that in a thread about where have all the raiders gone? we hear about 2 raiders who have gone on honeymoon

    And it is the MT and OT none the less

  2. #1362
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Can't see why the guild i've either been in or lead with the same core for half a decade would dissolve now.

    Why not learn to read - and while you are at it, to back up and acknowledge when you've got stuff wrong?

    Feel free to apologise any time you like.
    Will you still be able to kill Lei Shen before 5.4? That's all that matters if you "only raid Normal Mode."

  3. #1363
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Will you still be able to kill Lei Shen before 5.4? That's all that matters if you "only raid Normal Mode."
    When raid groups collapse, it's not usually because they ran up against the absolute limit of their competence, but rather often because the difficulty exhausted their give-a-damn.

    So it's not just a matter of "able", it's also a matter of "still care". If the game destroys this, it has failed just as badly.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  4. #1364
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The last line of defense of a broken game is to blame its players.
    Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.

  5. #1365
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.
    No, a tier being "beatable" does not imply the game is working. Otherwise, any content tuned so that only Method could in practice do it would be "working".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #1366
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Will you still be able to kill Lei Shen before 5.4? That's all that matters if you "only raid Normal Mode."
    Oh yeah.

    We cleared T14 in time as well. My comments about raiding being overtuned are coming from the perspective of looking at the stats and accepting what the data says + some nightmare experiences with alt runs, abortive pugs and our nascent second raid group (which is largely restricted to clearing hof and toes still, sadly.)

  7. #1367
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.
    And there are physics problems that are solveable by professors, this means they belong on a high school physics test. And there are planes that can be flown safely by expert pilots, therefore everyone can fly.

    The percentage of guilds actively trying to beat this tier is quite low, even if you totally ignore the incredible dropoff in number of guilds downing 1 boss from t14.

    That doesn't mean the game doesn't have problems and one of them is that the devs have lost touch of the difference between what is doable and what is reasonable. Very few highly successful games that have enduring appeal are structured in such a way that only by excelling at the game, do you have access to the best tools with which to play that game. Tiered progression, even partly so, makes that worse and creates a system whereby the best players who already have the best gear, have perpetually better access to better gear which skews tuning around the elite of the elite of the elite. WoW has avoided this trap for a long time, but it won't if the guys making the game don't do what good teachers typically do, make the tests challenge the skills of a competent average person and if the exceptional student makes a perfect score, then so be it.

  8. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.
    Lot's of things are "beatable" but that shouldn't be your criteria for wether or not the game is broken.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    make the tests challenge the skills of a competent average person and if the exceptional student makes a perfect score, then so be it.
    Thank you. This sums up my feelings very well.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #1369
    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    WoW has avoided this trap for a long time, but it won't if the guys making the game don't do what good teachers typically do, make the tests challenge the skills of a competent average person and if the exceptional student makes a perfect score, then so be it.
    What defines the competent average person? Does it include a person who is willing to improve themselves and work together as a team and spend a handful of minutes on reading a class guide or does it mean the so called majority who only care for themselves and believe that being responsible for ones mistakes is elitist?

    You do not need to be the best of the best to complete the raids on normal, but the whole raid team needs to have respect for each other and try. Leave the heroics to the exceptional students.
    I am not saying that MoP raids are not without their faults. I personally do not like most of the fights and found T11 and T12 to be far more fun as both a healer and DPS. Most of T14 is boring as a DPS with large imbalances with fight mechanics responsibilities that tend to make fights more frustrating for some while a drag for others. First boss in vaults is in my opinion the most difficult tank swap fight in T14 and are generally held off until later in a raid. Good luck trying to PuG that place without veteran tanks. The second boss is 90% tanks job not to screw up with the DPS and healers bored until phase 3 and healers stressing on mana and cooldowns if tanks screw up in the first two phases. Jumping to Terrace, mechanically the fights are more forgiving and simplistic with more tight tuning to make up for their simplicity. As a DPS the second boss was the most interesting but not much.

    Personally I feel that Blizzard is trying to make MoP raids far too gimmicky in the wrong way in order to make them different from previous expansions. The way they did Ulduar was fun, most of T14 just makes me want to punch my monitor.

    From my observation it is not just the raids themselves that are the issue. It is other factors in the game that are making raiding normal mode and up to be quite unappealing and not worth the effort required to keep pace. Compared to Cata, all Blizzard did was move back the wall into raiding.

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