Patch 5.3: Pushing the Horde apart

[PizzaSHARK]

The Worgen got shafted. The Alliance got defeated time and time again, often for no good reason. And even by NPCs. There was no balance in the story. Storylines were dropped, high points and quests of note were removed. Points of pride such as Nathanos Blightcallers death were retconned out of existence. The Alliance played comic relief to the Horde. Horde quests were copied over to the Alliance with no regard paid for whether anything made sense or tied up. Overdone faction neutrality. And more.

Was Nathanos ever actually considered killed in canon? You were given a quest to kill him, but considering he was also a major quest hub for Horde players, you often saw piles of Alliance skeletons around his little house more often than not.

"No loss of faction pride"? There was nothing BUT loss of faction priode for the Alliance in Catclysm. There should have been balance...there wasn't.

Horde lost pretty much its more nuanced and interesting NPC to the dreaded curse of neutrality, and then he was turned into a fricking Mary Sue on top of that. Cata in general was pretty awful for factions gaining interesting NPCs (most of the interesting NPCs introduced were in neutral factions), but at least Varian went from being a human Garrosh into a character that's deeper than a kiddie pool. Now he's more like a shallow end character. Progress!

And becoming more so strangely enough. It was a big complaint during Wrath that the HElfs got more storytime than some PC races. In a way, its a bit strange to see them pushed so aggressivly here.

EJL

Probably a response to complaints that blood elves had no real plot elements since TBC, and even those were fairly minor past a certain point. I'm kind of surprised they put high elves on the Alliance side of things rather than the squids or worgen. Then again, they needed magic types, and humans are way overdone on that end, leaving only elves.

Besides, it also gives reason for the PvP quests, considering the blood elves hate the little high elf pansies.

[Scummer]

Horde lost pretty much its more nuanced and interesting NPC to the dreaded curse of neutrality, and then he was turned into a fricking Mary Sue on top of that. Cata in general was pretty awful for factions gaining interesting NPCs (most of the interesting NPCs introduced were in neutral factions), but at least Varian went from being a human Garrosh into a character that's deeper than a kiddie pool. Now he's more like a shallow end character. Progress!

Actually I feel Thrall's neutrality was handled decently, unless you were Alliance I suppose.

It was done correctly in the sense Thrall actually kept most of his identity as a Horde leader.
He didn't just go neutral and forget about his people like Malfurion did. The first time he shows up it's him fighting Alliance and asking Goblins to go join the Horde. When we see him during the Elemental Bonds questline he's still shown as being Horde what with delving into his leadership issues and threat to the Alliance. During ToW we see that he's still in contact with the Horde via Eitrigg and still shows a great deal of emotion about the Horde. We now have him rescuing the Trolls even though he is still a neutral character by all accounts.

The problems though we are all familiar with.

[Harazi]

I remember sharing my crazy idea with guildies a few years back. In light of current events ... and this general feeling of something huge about to happen in wow ... it doesn't seem so crazy anymore.

The idea? Next expansion, alliance and horde are unified completely and totally. But since WoW insists on being based around faction conflict ... the Burning Legion becomes the second playable faction.

[Thulvaso]

I remember sharing my crazy idea with guildies a few years back. In light of current events ... and this general feeling of something huge about to happen in wow ... it doesn't seem so crazy anymore.

The idea? Next expansion, alliance and horde are unified completely and totally. But since WoW insists on being based around faction conflict ... the Burning Legion becomes the second playable faction.

They have always had a "distraction" which has made them team up, Wrath springs to mind as the biggest. I want to see both Horde and Alliance stand on their own without the need to aid each other against potential threats.

[Misuteri]

If they split races into transferrable factions or faction choices I'm taking my undead Alliance on day one. My gnomes all become Horde.

Why the gnomes? They city was overtaken by level 20 something critters and 70 levels later they can't get their own capital?

[Torais]

After the pro-Horde wankfest that was Cataclysm this is a most welcome change to see the Horde firmly planted in villain territory and getting the punishment they deserve for it.

You do realize most Horde players are just as bored and annoyed with Thrall as you are, right? Cataclysm was hardly pro-Horde. It was nearly exclusively pro-Thrall with the Aspect leaders reduced to cartoon-level sidekicks. There was so much wasted potential on both sides (The Forsaken vs. Worgen plot thread that sputtered out around lv 20 or the whole Goblin story line that really ended up going nowhere once you get to Durotar) thanks to Blizzard's obsession with Thrall that is reaching more then unhealthy levels.

Likewise, the Alliance won't "beat" the Horde in this expansion. They will beat Garrosh who many Horde (both players and NPC) want ousted just as much as you guys do. It is hardly the best writing I have seen as I think there is too much focus on appearing even-handed at all times (which makes for a lousy war story) but honestly I will be happy enough if Blizzard manage to keep Thrall from stealing the spotlight yet again in this storyline. We will have to wait and see.

[Deleted]

The Alliance story in Cataclysm was a complete and utter shambles, a travesty hugely unworthy of Blizzard. The list of what went wrong is long, and even Blizzard has acknowledged the mistakes.

The Worgen got shafted. The Alliance got defeated time and time again, often for no good reason. And even by NPCs. There was no balance in the story. Storylines were dropped, high points and quests of note were removed. Points of pride such as Nathanos Blightcallers death were retconned out of existence. The Alliance played comic relief to the Horde. Horde quests were copied over to the Alliance with no regard paid for whether anything made sense or tied up. Overdone faction neutrality. And more.

"No loss of faction pride"? There was nothing BUT loss of faction priode for the Alliance in Catclysm. There should have been balance...there wasn't.

Not this shit again. Yes, Cataclysm favoured Horde. But Vanilla (amount of questing zones, accessibility of raids by flightpaths, amount of content) and Wrath of the Lich King (lore) favoured Alliance. Stop bitching about it.

Besides, it's looking like Mists of Pandaria is favouring Alliance AGAIN. You get to raid the enemy's capital, isn't that the treat? Isn't that the ultimate thing they could offer you? But oh no, let's keep whining about Cataclysm favouring Horde and start doing braingymnastics as if it has always been so.

[Kalcheus]

You get to raid the enemy's capital, isn't that the treat? Isn't that the ultimate thing they could offer you?

No. Lordaeron retaken and Sylvanas/Forsaken eliminated or neutralized is the ultimate thing.

[Verdugo]

No. Lordaeron retaken and Sylvanas/Forsaken eliminated or neutralized is the ultimate thing.

Should Lordaeron be ever retaken, expect massive explosion to devour everyone once civilians settle in.

[Kalcheus]

Should Lordaeron be ever retaken, expect massive explosion to devour everyone once civilians settle in.

Do you mean in-game, or from Sylvanas fanboys?

EDIT: To clarify, I meant the kingdom, not the city. I don't expect the city to be hospitable to humans for a long time, if ever.

[Scummer]

Besides, it's looking like Mists of Pandaria is favouring Alliance AGAIN. You get to raid the enemy's capital, isn't that the treat? Isn't that the ultimate thing they could offer you?

I'm going to tread lightly by keeping this brief and say my peace and run for the hills.
Currently the story is better on the Horde side. Yeah I said it. It's more diverse is in general better produced with the Purge being a good example of this due to interaction you have with Rommath and the NPC's.
The problem with the raid on Orgrimmar is that we just don't know a lot about what's actually gonna go down. It could very easily turn into one giant cockup because both factions have their own huge expectations of it with some of them conflicting with the other person's.

[Florena]

I'm going to tread lightly by keeping this brief and say my peace and run for the hills.
Currently the story is better on the Horde side. Yeah I said it. It's more diverse is in general better produced with the Purge being a good example of this due to interaction you have with Rommath and the NPC's.
The problem with the raid on Orgrimmar is that we just don't know a lot about what's actually gonna go down. It could very easily turn into one giant cockup because both factions have their own huge expectations of it with some of them conflicting with the other person's.

Yeah, the Horde are getting a very interesting story out of this.


And the worry alliance players have about Siege of Org is this: they won't really be raiding the Horde capital and dealing a devastating blow to the Horde. They'll be HELPING the Horde by getting rid of its tyrant and putting new leadership in charge, then pulling out of the city. We don't know exactly how things will go, but from what we've learned so far it doesn't sound like the Alliance will be out to conquer the city or disband the Horde, only to take out Garrosh. Which is why me and others are hping that 5.3 brings a legit Alliance victory, as siege of org will be a horde victory too, with them wresting control back from a maniacal tyrant.

[Scummer]

And the worry alliance players have about Siege of Org is this: they won't really be raiding the Horde capital and dealing a devastating blow to the Horde. They'll be HELPING the Horde by getting rid of its tyrant and putting new leadership in charge, then pulling out of the city. We don't know exactly how things will go, but from what we've learned so far it doesn't sound like the Alliance will be out to conquer the city or disband the Horde, only to take out Garrosh. Which is why me and others are hoping that 5.3 brings a legit Alliance victory, as siege of org will be a horde victory too, with them wresting control back from a maniacal tyrant.

The worst case scenario for the SoO is that everybodies just there to put Thrall on the throne again. At that point the Alliance is a plot device to help the Orcs realise their mistakes for the second time.
Your point about the Alliance just being their to resolve a Horde problem is the other point that concerns a lot of people and is at this moment still valid. The other thing to bear in mind is that the argument of "Well Alliance get to raid the Horde capital" isn't exactly entirely correct in it's specifics. They're not there to raid the "Horde" Capital. They're there for Garrosh as it's his capital as at that point there are two Horde's and due to the circumstances Orgrimmar would be Garrosh's. We aren't there for the "Horde" and we aren't there to sack the place.

The problem with this is that a lot of Horde players want this an while I completely understand that notion, the ramifications of it would be pretty bad for the story.

I must admit a little part of me dies when I make these type of posts. I'm not actually a truly judgemental or negative person despite what these posts might indicate.

[George Costanza]

Grimtotem and Gilneas is all I can guess about what's coming for 5.3 And Troll rebellion of course.

[Florena]

The worst case scenario for the SoO is that everybodies just there to put Thrall on the throne again. At that point the Alliance is a plot device to help the Orcs realise their mistakes for the second time.
Your point about the Alliance just being their to resolve a Horde problem is the other point that concerns a lot of people and is at this moment still valid. The other thing to bear in mind is that the argument of "Well Alliance get to raid the Horde capital" isn't exactly entirely correct in it's specifics. They're not there to raid the "Horde" Capital. They're there for Garrosh as it's his capital as at that point there are two Horde's and due to the circumstances Orgrimmar would be Garrosh's. We aren't there for the "Horde" and we aren't there to sack the place.

The problem with this is that a lot of Horde players want this an while I completely understand that notion, the ramifications of it would be pretty bad for the story.

I must admit a little part of me dies when I make these type of posts. I'm not actually a truly judgemental or negative person despite what these posts might indicate.

Yeah. The Alliance NEEDS to play a big role in bringing the horde revolution, otherwise MoP is going to risk becoming like Red vs Blue. To elaborate, all of the major plot important stuff tends to happen around the Blue team in that series. Church and Tex drive much more of the plot than the rest of the characters, and at certain times it feels in RvB that the Reds are just along for the ride and the overarching story is all about Blue characters.

Either the Alliance needs some major development of its own, or they need to be absolutely critical to resolving the Horde revolution story in a way that also advances the Alliance's story. Otherwise the Alliance will risk feeling like a third wheel in the storyline, only there to give Garrosh something to fight so he can cause the Horde to rebel from within.

I haven't lost hope yet that things will turn out well for both factions, but blizz could also botch this easily and make things worse for Alliance fans than in Cataclysm.

[Zdain]

I think that the entirety of the Horde is ready to overthrow Garrosh already, Vol'jin hates him, Baine hates him for killing his dad, Sylvanas hates him for his reaction to using Valkyrs, Blood Elves hate him because his hair is non-existant and his skin is just terrible, Goblins hate him because of the injustices that happened during the journey to Twilight Highlands and his reputation as a non-tipper. Pandas don't really seem to be part of the Horde so much as, just along for the ride and willing to offer advice when it's needed. I'm looking forward to 5.3 because it will hopefully give the Horde of Moon Guard a reason to complain about lore bias, which as of late has been a monopoly held by the Alliance. On a more serious note, I say Lorthemar will start to come to the front as the next leader of the Horde.

Edit - Thrall needs to stay away, that way Chris Metzen doesn't continue to focus on him and lore does have an obvious bias. Sure he is an awesome leader for the Horde but he is an anomaly among the Orcs. The orcs pride themselves on battle prowess and fighting, but Thrall because of how he was raised was a more thoughtful Orc and there lies the problem to me. Orcs and their leader should behave like a more controlled and slightly toned down version of Grom and Garrosh (Leader of Orcs not of the Horde). Give the Blood Elves a chance to lead, they are calculating and they have a legitimate reason to hate the Alliance. Vol'jin seems to care more about his people and not so much the Horde as a whole and more or less sticks to being an advisor. The same could somewhat be said about the Blood Elves I know, but I think Lorthemar could step up in the coming content to change that view of them, since his lore hasn't been as developed. Baine is still young, and it seems the Tauren inclusion into the Horde was more because of the help Thrall gave them in War3. Finally, you have Sylvanas, as much as I would love to have our most glorious leader being a semi-content with genocide and all around crazy bitch, her part seemed to come full circle with the death of Arthas.

[Florena]

I think that the entirety of the Horde is ready to overthrow Garrosh already, Vol'jin hates him, Baine hates him for killing his dad, Sylvanas hates him for his reaction to using Valkyrs, Blood Elves hate him because his hair is non-existant and his skin is just terrible, Goblins hate him because of the injustices that happened during the journey to Twilight Highlands and his reputation as a non-tipper. Pandas don't really seem to be part of the Horde so much as, just along for the ride and willing to offer advice when it's needed. I'm looking forward to 5.3 because it will hopefully give the Horde of Moon Guard a reason to complain about lore bias, which as of late has been a monopoly held by the Alliance. On a more serious note, I say Lorthemar will start to come to the front as the next leader of the Horde.

Edit - Thrall needs to stay away, that way Chris Metzen doesn't continue to focus on him and lore does have an obvious bias. Sure he is an awesome leader for the Horde but he is an anomaly among the Orcs. The orcs pride themselves on battle prowess and fighting, but Thrall because of how he was raised was a more thoughtful Orc and there lies the problem to me. Orcs and their leader should behave like a more controlled and slightly toned down version of Grom and Garrosh (Leader of Orcs not of the Horde). Give the Blood Elves a chance to lead, they are calculating and they have a legitimate reason to hate the Alliance. Vol'jin seems to care more about his people and not so much the Horde as a whole and more or less sticks to being an advisor. The same could somewhat be said about the Blood Elves I know, but I think Lorthemar could step up in the coming content to change that view of them, since his lore hasn't been as developed. Baine is still young, and it seems the Tauren inclusion into the Horde was more because of the help Thrall gave them in War3. Finally, you have Sylvanas, as much as I would love to have our most glorious leader being a semi-content with genocide and all around crazy bitch, her part seemed to come full circle with the death of Arthas.

I fully expect Thrall to play a role, they wouldn't introduce him in 5.1 if he wasn't going to. Just hope he's not the leader of the Horde rebels or the next warchief.

If Siege of Org is going to work it needs to be a convergence of both factions stories, and not the Alliance just helping out the Horde finishing theirs. If blizz strikes that balance it will be great.

[Rhlor]

I've had this idea in my mind since I read Jaina was the new leader of the Kirin tor

Maybe Dalaran would be moved back to its former location in Eastern Kingdoms (Since it has apparently left Northrend)
And could start an all out war against the forsaken, Dailies could be flying over the ruins of lordaeron throwing bombs or maybe something to do with gilneas?

their main enemy is Garrosh not sylvanas, Insurance is placed on the ruins of Theramore. the Forsaken also be part of this rebellion

[Sky High]

I'm going to tread lightly by keeping this brief and say my peace and run for the hills.
Currently the story is better on the Horde side. Yeah I said it. It's more diverse is in general better produced with the Purge being a good example of this due to interaction you have with Rommath and the NPC's.
The problem with the raid on Orgrimmar is that we just don't know a lot about what's actually gonna go down. It could very easily turn into one giant cockup because both factions have their own huge expectations of it with some of them conflicting with the other person's.

I called it back at the end of wrath/start of cata that Garry's assholery will be one of the best things to happen to the horde purely story-wise. the horde is getting the better storyline, why? because of garrosh directly or indirectly causing the strife between himself, the alliance and horde leaders, he's causing de drama and drama outside of reality TV is a good thing from a story telling standpoint.

conversely, what have we seen for the alliance? oh varian keeps doing his heroic leading bullshit while the rest of the alliance is on the side lines cheering him on. Jaina turns the Kirin'tor BACK to the alliance and kicks out the Belves. woopty freaking do, at least Anduwin has a CHANCE of livening things up for the alliance but even now you can chalk him up to being a neutral character of course leaning heavily for the alliance much like thrall and the horde.

I'm a hordey and even I feel bad for the amount of afterthought the alliance has gotten, its sad.

[Boricha]

I'm also wondering about what will happen if the new war chief isn't an orc. Right now the leader of every race is also of that race, so if the new war chief was, for example, Voljin then would orcs just not have their own leader?