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  1. #141
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    And it's not just WoW - I'd go so far as to say it's all MMORPGs.

    Kids these days... just not into what they were in the past. The notion of "working for your fun" is just unreal to them.

    For multiplayer, they want games like League of Legends, Call of Duty, Halo - games they can pick up easy, and put down easy, with minimal investment.

    I think WoW's problem right now is generational - We, the MMO gamer generation, are getting old. We're graduating, getting married, having kids, kids growing up, etc.

    And there's no one replacing us. As we age and move on, the next generation just doesn't want to grind. Why pay $15/month on top of the standard game cost when you can play with your friends for just the price of the disc?

    Why go through 36+ hours of mind numbing leveling, with no challenge, no excitement, when you can hop into CoD multiplayer on day 1?

    While other genres are expanding to try to reach new people and markets, the MMO market is shrinking. Fewer and fewer people are willing to put forth the hours, dedication, and coordination required to "have fun."

    My take on WoW's decline - it's not just WoW. It's all MMOs. And it's no one's fault.
    I'm part of the "MMO gamer generation," and I still think grinding and subscription fees and all that jazz is fucking stupid and needs to die in a white-hot fire.
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    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
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  2. #142
    Can you really blame them? If I were to go get a game right now and I had to choose between WoW, something that had a monthly fee + you had to grind for ~40 hours before you can even begin to have any fun, versus a game that's $60 that I can put into a console or PC and immediately have fun with, that doesn't have a monthly fee, I'd go with that one.

    The only reason I played WoW is because I had friends that did, if I didn't have friends that played I'd never have started. The game is good, but the time investment is too great for most people, and I can't really fault them for that. It is a massive investment. Leveling isn't fun, and grinding BGs/Heroics to get gear to raid or seriously PvP isn't fun either.

    Games like DotA have a massive learning curve, and it takes countless games to get good, but even if you're not the greatest you can still have fun with it. There's virtually nothing fun about grinding levels or gear in WoW. The fun parts of WoW are arenas, raids, etc. things that require you to already have gear. And with how old WoW is, it's an even bigger investment.

    When WoW first came out there were 60 levels. The highest PvP was world PvP and then they added BGs, which you could do with just about any gear. Of course raid gear was better, but any gear worked more or less. As far as PvE yes there were raids, but gearing up in 5 mans was actually challenging too. You had to find 4 other people and head to the instance. It was a lot of work to hit 60, but once you were there you could immediately jump into challenging and fun content.

    Now there's 90 levels, and yes leveling is faster but 1-60 in vanilla is far faster than 1-90 now. On top of that, once you hit 90 you still have to grind out gear to get to the difficult parts. There's no difficulty in heroics, none, at all. You literally hit the "Find Group" button and faceroll and hope gear drops for you. There's no difficulty in PvP because it's entirely gear dependent in BGs, if you get targeted and you don't have good gear you die. End of discussion.

    It's just become an even bigger time investment, and there's a lot of other games you could pick up and play that aren't a massive time sink.

  3. #143
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    They're trying to cater to these kids who don't want to play MMOs while abandoning their "good" generation with these casual ideals that aren't really fun for us.
    Most of the "good" generation is retired, anyway, (because they grew up, had jobs etc...) so you can't cater to a small minority left.
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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    Why go through 36+ hours of mind numbing leveling, with no challenge, no excitement, when you can hop into CoD multiplayer on day 1?
    Funny that 36 hours is considered a lot. Used to take well over a hundred hours for a new player to reach cap.

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  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Funny that 36 hours is considered a lot. Used to take well over a hundred hours for a new player to reach cap.
    It still does. A new player who has an mmo background might be able to get a toon to level cap that quickly, but I doubt that is commonplace. People forget how much they had to learn when they first started playing this game...the average new player I know takes a few months to get to level cap.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by -nevan View Post
    Well I guess it's a good thing. Grinding is retarded.
    That's pretty much exactly WRONG.

    Most modern people in western culture learn that to achieve success, it is essential to build

    1. Confidence
    2. Attitude

    This teaching is WRONG. Success comes from self-discipline.

    You can easily identify the people who will be successful in life by separating them into these two camps:

    1. The ones showing you confidence and attitude
    2. The ones with self-discipline

    But let's take a closer look at the latter. Why is self-discipline such an advantage over confidence and attitude? The reason is because self-discipline vastly increases the odds you will be able to slog through seemlingly endless boring hours of study to get awesome grades in high school, slog thru rough courses in college, earn a degree, work hard to achieve a great paying job.

    In short, self-discipline enables people to GRIND life. And grinding life = success.

    So when you say that "grinding is retarded", you have pretty much missed the ENTIRE POINT of life.

  7. #147
    Mechagnome Zeglo's Avatar
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    There's nothing wrong with it. We have different gaming tastes than our parents do.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    That's pretty much exactly WRONG.

    Most modern people in western culture learn that to achieve success, it is essential to build

    1. Confidence
    2. Attitude

    This teaching is WRONG. Success comes from self-discipline.

    You can easily identify the people who will be successful in life by separating them into these two camps:

    1. The ones showing you confidence and attitude
    2. The ones with self-discipline

    But let's take a closer look at the latter. Why is self-discipline such an advantage over confidence and attitude? The reason is because self-discipline vastly increases the odds you will be able to slog through seemlingly endless boring hours of study to get awesome grades in high school, slog thru rough courses in college, earn a degree, work hard to achieve a great paying job.

    In short, self-discipline enables people to GRIND life. And grinding life = success.

    So when you say that "grinding is retarded", you have pretty much missed the ENTIRE POINT of life.
    Self-discipline to me means that you play a computer game a few hours here and there and when it's not fun, you stop. A gamer grinding for 12 hours of mindless tedium to get a +2 weapon is kind of the opposite of self discipline.

    That you would somehow try to connect investing countless hours of boredom in a computer game in order to achieve a meaningless virtual reward as an example of self discipline is odd to say the least.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Self-discipline to me means that you play a computer game a few hours here and there and when it's not fun, you stop. A gamer grinding for 12 hours of mindless tedium to get a +2 weapon is kind of the opposite of self discipline.

    That you would somehow try to connect investing countless hours of boredom in a computer game in order to achieve a meaningless virtual reward as an example of self discipline is odd to say the least.
    Its not odd. Its exactly the function, and advantage, of self-discipline.

    The successful people in this world are basically...boring. They have an ability to grind out mind-numbing tasks, don't get out much, don't party much, and that's it.

    One example is NFL head coach Joe Gibbs. The guy was wildly successful. He also didn't have a life. He lived in his office. He set up a sleeping cot and would catch a few zzz's, then get right up and grind more gamefilm. Won 3 super bowls.

    Joe Gibbs was an incredible self-disciplined person. He also was very boring. That is success.
    Last edited by Grummgug; 2013-03-23 at 10:58 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Grummgug View Post
    Its not odd. Its exactly the function, and advantage, of self-discipline.

    The successful people in this world are basically...boring. They have an ability to grind out mind-numbing tasks, don't get out much, don't party much, and that's it.

    One example is NFL head coach Joe Gibbs. The guy was wildly successful. He also didn't have a life. He lived in his office. He set up a sleeping cot and would catch a few zzz's, then get right up and grind more gamefilm. Won 3 super bowls.

    Joe Gibbs was an incredible self-disciplined person. He also was very boring. That is success.
    You're seriously comparing winning a Super Bowl to getting a new shiny in a MMO?

    Self discipline is only playing a game for an hour or two, and then going to sleep to get a good night's rest before work/classes tomorrow.

    Staying up late camping a rare mob for that must have +3 ring in a meaningless virtual game is the opposite of self discipline.

    The fact that you're constantly equating success in a MMO to real life success is pretty sad.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Self-discipline to me means that you play a computer game a few hours here and there and when it's not fun, you stop. A gamer grinding for 12 hours of mindless tedium to get a +2 weapon is kind of the opposite of self discipline.
    That's a great definition. Fun is different things to different people though. Some folks enjoy playing this game 1 hour a week, some 50.

    What we're seeing here is demands of folks that the game no longer be time consuming in most / all aspects, rather than just realizing that they're no longer a candidate for playing an MMO.

    But hey, Blizzard certainly seems to listen.

  12. #152
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I don't think it's about generations. I think it's about casual gamers. Not everyone want to spend hours each day on a game.
    This - WoW Decents from Roleplaying and Roleplaying consist of grinding and leveling.
    And for the next generation - yes we get kids and my kid lovs WoW

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksen View Post
    And it's not just WoW - I'd go so far as to say it's all MMORPGs.

    Kids these days... just not into what they were in the past. The notion of "working for your fun" is just unreal to them.
    What a load of bull. I AM working for my fun, I do it 8 hours a day at work, making money so that I can come home and have fun. You know what, you are right, it might actually be a generational problem, unlike a generation of basement dweller gamers, kids today actually have work to do OUTSIDE of the game, which is something you seem unable to grasp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 09:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Siaer View Post
    And I would bet every dollar of that 60 bucks that you would stop playing the other game before you would have stopped playing WoW, so how much entertainment you get for your money is pretty subjective when trying to compare an MMO to a non MMO.
    But how many hours of the countless grind you spend in WoW are actually ENTERTAINING? I'd much rather play a game for 8 hours and have 8 hours of fun, than play a game for 200 hours and have 10 hours of fun.
    Last edited by namelessone; 2013-03-24 at 01:45 AM.
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  14. #154
    Field Marshal Garrikk's Avatar
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    I don't see WoW in a decline right now. When it hits 2 million subscribers is when I'll think that.
    You must not forget that there are millions of players out there that play and grind and don't gripe on the forums because they love the game.
    People you see bitching on the forums are the minority.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrikk View Post
    I don't see WoW in a decline right now. When it hits 2 million subscribers is when I'll think that.
    You must not forget that there are millions of players out there that play and grind and don't gripe on the forums because they love the game.
    People you see bitching on the forums are the minority.
    Most people can't handle change. At some point change outpaces them and they start seeing everything "in decline". Any person at any age throughout history would always tell you how things were totally better before and how everything goes to shit with new generation. What's funny is that if you point it out to them, they would scream how THIS TIME IT'S TOTALLY DIFFERENT!
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  16. #156
    Deleted
    Well, i infact think that classic mmos are a dying species. If tou take a look onto the mmo market, none of the big releases of the early past really had been as successfull as they liked to be. SWTOR was a desaster, even if it offered a unique leveling experience, for example.

    I think people today like to play very accessible games which dont want them invest time everyday. Gaming in general becomes more and more casual.
    Last edited by mmoc903ad35b4b; 2013-03-24 at 01:58 AM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Nice that you follow in the footsteps of the great philosophers ""The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers."

    Attributed to Socrates or Plato...
    Only proves how wise they were.

  18. #158
    I've played wow since BC, was about 15 or 16 when BC first came out. Over time people grow up and move on, some people stay and continue to play wow alongside job/wife/husband, etc but 90% of the people I knew that I grew up playing wow with, well over 50 people, have quit and moved on to other things. I logged into mists of pandaria on launch night and only had 2 people left on a once hefty friends list. It seems the next generation and I'm sure the countless ones after us will prefer the pick up and go method that seems to be so popular in games right now, more reward for less time spent.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    But how many hours of the countless grind you spend in WoW are actually ENTERTAINING? I'd much rather play a game for 8 hours and have 8 hours of fun, than play a game for 200 hours and have 10 hours of fun.
    That answer will be different for everyone, won't it? So rather than playing a game that you only enjoy a small amount of time in, perhaps you're better off playing something else, rather than rallying to have this game changed to suit your specific needs.

  20. #160
    Forgive me, Its 5 am and I have not slept yet, so my point might get lost down the road here.

    The problem is that success is indicative of millions of units sold, of millions of concurrent subscribers, how many dozens of dlc will people buy for your product, and so on.

    Companies use to be sold on the idea of 100k players playing their game. The games cost the same, they had the same group of developers, probably paid a little less, commercials cost roughly the same to be aired on tv. And many game franchises and studios prospered, and some didnt, just the same as today.

    If you went to a little league, how many people would be happy that 30 kids and parents showed up to play/watch the game?
    If you went to a major league game, how many people would be happy that 30 players and 30 fans showed up to play/watch the game?

    Well, the obvious differences is that the kids are not paid sums of 5 million to play ball, thus increasing the need for more ticket sales. But if ALL baseball players were paid 100k a year, would that drive the overall cost/profit margin of running a game down? Yes, but it by todays standards it wouldnt change the size of the stadiums, because they will still push ticket profits.

    How does that translate to video games?

    Well, If wow had a concrete player base of 300k , it would still run at full steam as if 10 million had never happened. Would the game be different than now? Maybe, but vanilla wow was pretty incredible for its time, and its beginning player base wasnt nearly as many million as it is now. So who is to say that if it stayed in the same general direction company wise, that wow would be all that much different content wise than what we have now. Would the game be sustainable money wise? Certainly. Companies have had mmos run with far fewer subscribers for years before wow was even hinted at a release.

    But all these new mmos cave in or go free to play because they dont have enough sales / subscribers......

    Not really. They fail because their publishers / holders / etc. are basing the company on millions sold.

    Take EA for example, they dont feel that a game makes the bare minimum for success unless it reaches around a 2 million sales figure. They have actual contractual agreements based on this magical millions number. Other companies even have such high regard for metascore numbers, which have no indication of profits for a game, yet base their success and such on them. Now this magical number may waver depending on who you ask and what the game in question is; but for a publisher, you dont make "real money" unless the profit margins are high and you can tell your share holders those magical millions sold numbers that they also crave.

    I could go on and on about this, but I want to get back to how it affects the game in general.

    If you are designing a game to make millions of units sold, you are sacrificing the integrity of the game, in favor of making sales.
    This is a rather "duh" notion, but one that people dont really think about.

    If you love books on African beetles, you are not very likely to have 10 million other people who enthusiastically share your passion for it. So by being the best African Beetles book it can be, you are content that your user base is much smaller, and as such the integrity of information in said book is untarnished to make sales.

    Say you want to make a profit off African beetles books, now your concern is about making sales, rather than the book itself. As long as you can create a larger customer base, youll change things, like African to "Jungle" , to get less publicity about racism or misunderstanding of its origin. Maybe we add in a second beetle from a similar family, for a cross reference or quirky story anecdote. Say we change the font up a bit, making it easier on the eyes and more recognizable/modern, kids these days have dyslexia and adhd...so we have to do something for them right? Lets get rid of that old wood texture covering....oooh! mental note, kindle app.

    And sooner or later you have a very nice and interesting story on Jungle Creatures, with a cute drawing done by a little 2nd grader (My daughter!..shes so precious and smart!) .


    In order for blizzard to continue to keep those 10 million + subscribers , they need to keep thinking in regards to keeping interest of 9.7 million newer mmo players. Less than half of a million could be said to be the standard "old guys" players from back in the day ( Most mmos didnt peak higher than 300k ish players ) , and gamers in general were not in the millions and millions per game back before 2005 ish. Getting side tracked...

    Its safe to say that there is not a 10 million player chunk for every mmo or game out there. One would be hard pressed to say there are 4 million, or even 1 million for most. WoW does not have 10 million while Swtor has 10 million as well, even though that would be nice. But they could all have 300k players and be successful, by product of them ALL having 300k players and thus nobody having over a million to use as a "benchmark" , but it would allow for "niche" gaming, or unique games to be enjoyed for their uniqueness, rather than each game trying to absorb that 10 million player base from some other company into theirs.

    When one realizes they dont need millions and millions of sales like the person next to them, out of a finite pool of players to attract, they can keep with the idea of just making their product to represent their ideas and ideals, rather than the bottom line. In such, you get a possibly better product (doesnt guarantee it obviously), and one that trys to stay true with its roots, rather than trying to branch out to meet some over inflated number.

    A company can say all it wants about integrity and sticking true to their vision, but when you have 10 million customers to worry about , you start worrying heavily on those numbers.

    If blizzard was resolute in its stance of quality and developer vision of how the game is designed, they would stand tall if they lost 2 million players with a change in the game, or no change in the game, that kept the game in its true form. They still have 8 million players right? Who wouldnt be proud of that number.

    But then again, they could have had 10 million.

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