Shuriken Toss DPS ?

[Deleted]

As I'm doing a lot of PvP on the Isle of Thunder with my BM hunter, I also run into 1on1 with rogues. The one and only reason why I'm losing to some of them seems to be exclusively shuriken toss. No shuriken toss = dead rogue, if he doesn't vanish and runs away. I'm also gearing up a rogue atm, so I also like the idea, from that point of view.

Well, I tried a short test on a target dummy and the result was, that shuriken toss is doing 90% of the damage a rogue does in meele range.
I'm no rogue expert, so I'm wondering if this number can be true?

Meele: SnD, Rupture, Eviscerate, Backstab, Hemo for debuff
Ranged: SnD, Shuriken Toss, Deadly Throw

I didn't use ambush or any CDs (edit: with ambush it's 80%). Poison was DP. Rogue is equipped in greens and blues (ilvl 440), but I think that doesn't matter, as both meele and ranged dps scale with better gear.

[Sicarius87]

ST does do a lot of DPS and i fully expect it to be nerfed in 5.3. I was in the shadow-pan heroic dungeon and those purple orbs, I can dps them for 40k+ just spamming ST over and over.

[Tehstool]

Think about it like this: Shuriken toss does about the same damage as a glaive toss AND it's doubled when you are farther than 10 yards away. It is a very powerful ability.

[Surfd]

It mainly has to do with the nature of shuriken toss and the way some rogue specs work:

Shuriken toss lets you ranged auto attack (at a minor dps penalty) + it procs your combat poison.

Now, look at combat logs for assassination rogues. What is usually their two highest damage abilities? You guessed it. Mele hits, and poison damage. That is honestly all there is to it.

When Shuriken toss lets you do most of your two hardest hitting damage sources from ranged, and you still have a ranged combo-point damage dealer (deadly throw), you end up with a Mele class that has some pretty hard hitting ranged capability.

[gutnbrg]

tbh dont even know why this ability is still in the game or still doing as much dmg as it does...if u let a rogue sit on u he is going to rape u, if u kite him like a caster should do he is still going to rape u...fun times

[Wow]

Meele: SnD, Rupture, Eviscerate, Backstab, Hemo for debuff
Ranged: SnD, Shuriken Toss, Deadly Throw

The big thing here is solo st's auto attack will proc hat almost on cd for you, and while in melee range auto attack crits don't proc it. Which means a lot less solo cp's.

If you compare dmg in a group setting melee pulls ahead much more with hat procing from others all that said st is strong when no healers are around but its not that good of dmg when there is.

I
When Shuriken toss lets you do most of your two hardest hitting damage sources from ranged, and you still have a ranged combo-point damage dealer (deadly throw), you end up with a Mele class that has some pretty hard hitting ranged capability.

And when you look at a sub rogue's logs you see evis at top dmg ability. Lets not start acting like rogues have more than one viable pvp spec here.
Also hardest hitting =/= high dmg source %'s.

St is strong in random bg's and duels but in real rated pvp the only real issue is deadly throw's no cd lock out.

[Surfd]

And when you look at a sub rogue's logs you see evis at top dmg ability. Lets not start acting like rogues have more than one viable pvp spec here.
Also hardest hitting =/= high dmg source %'s.

St is strong in random bg's and duels but in real rated pvp the only real issue is deadly throw's no cd lock out.

When I said that, I wasnt really referring to "biggest number hits", i was referring to the fact that, at least for Assass rogues, Mele Damage (white hits) and Poison Damage, are pretty much ALWAYS the top two sources of their damage on a combat log parse, usually by a fair margin. Shuriken toss has a very good synergy for them because you basicly get to use your two best damage sources, at range, with little penalty.

Also, who says you cant PvP as anything other then Sub?

[Kezuma]

As I'm doing a lot of PvP on the Isle of Thunder with my BM hunter, I also run into 1on1 with rogues. The one and only reason why I'm losing to some of them seems to be exclusively shuriken toss. No shuriken toss = dead rogue, if he doesn't vanish and runs away. I'm also gearing up a rogue atm, so I also like the idea, from that point of view.

Well, I tried a short test on a target dummy and the result was, that shuriken toss is doing 90% of the damage a rogue does in meele range.
I'm no rogue expert, so I'm wondering if this number can be true?

Meele: SnD, Rupture, Eviscerate, Backstab, Hemo for debuff
Ranged: SnD, Shuriken Toss, Deadly Throw

I didn't use ambush or any CDs (edit: with ambush it's 80%). Poison was DP. Rogue is equipped in greens and blues (ilvl 440), but I think that doesn't matter, as both meele and ranged dps scale with better gear.

Hello mister hunter tbh i would gladly remove ST from rogue , imo the skillcap got lower with the ST and lately even with the cloak and dagger u simply cant miss your Sdance , but then again your skillcap as a hunter is totally 0 now my friend ( go get your deadzone back so u cant d0 the same dps in melee as u doit in 40yds range and after that u come and cry about the rogues ST)

Infracted: trolling

[kilj]

srsly if a hunter is going to QQ about a rogue, blizz should just bring back deadzone....

Infracted: trolling (elsewhere)

[Deleted]

You guys read only what you want to read. There's no QQ, I'm just looking for information to adapt to their new tools.
ST can stay, I have no issues with rogues being more challenging due to ST, without ST they seem to lose a lot of pressure against hunters. Apart from that, ST would also motivate me to gear up my rogue, though I fear that patch 5.3 will bring some changes to it, hopefully not without compensation.

Maybe impersonating a rogue next time when asking such questions would be a wiser decision from my side, just to avoid the otherwise unavoidable QQ accusations in order to keep the thread constructive (referring to the last two answers above this).

[SpaceJam]

Think about it like this: Shuriken toss does about the same damage as a glaive toss AND it's doubled when you are farther than 10 yards away. It is a very powerful ability.

So nerf the damage and then what? We're left with 1 somewhat crappy talent in PvP and a crappy one for PvP. The damage is fine on ST. The energy cost, however, is not and needs to be increased<Something I already suggested on the beta forums to hopefully prevent a nerf. It just doesn't make sense to have an ability so cheap do that much damage and give CPs.

Too many Rogues, myself included, just spam ST and don't even let it go for the full duration. Why? Because the first hit is good enough and generates CPs very fast for a fast-paced class. The energy cost needs to be like 35 because none of us are using it the way it should be; we're just abusing it. If it were 35 and not only 20 I would be much more hesitant to spam it up to 5 CPs as quickly as I could. Make it a skillful ability, and not a mindless spam when your target is out of range. This would also end the QQ from ranged classes not being able to cast when coupled with Deadly Throw... god forbid they have to L2fakecast against a Rogue when he's not in range.

Completely redo the Rogue talent tree, problem solved.

[Tehstool]

So nerf the damage and then what? We're left with 1 somewhat crappy talent in PvP and a crappy one for PvP. The damage is fine on ST. The energy cost, however, is not and needs to be increased<Something I already suggested on the beta forums to hopefully prevent a nerf. It just doesn't make sense to have an ability so cheap do that much damage and give CPs.

Too many Rogues, myself included, just spam ST and don't even let it go for the full duration. Why? Because the first hit is good enough and generates CPs very fast for a fast-paced class. The energy cost needs to be like 35 because none of us are using it the way it should be; we're just abusing it. If it were 35 and not only 20 I would be much more hesitant to spam it up to 5 CPs as quickly as I could. Make it a skillful ability, and not a mindless spam when your target is out of range. This would also end the QQ from ranged classes not being able to cast when coupled with Deadly Throw... god forbid they have to L2fakecast against a Rogue when he's not in range.

Completely redo the Rogue talent tree, problem solved.

Woah, nerf? Where did I say that? I was just telling them how it works.

[Kael]

Drop the class attacks.

The OP is asking if rogues are doing 90% of melee damage at range in higher gear levels, not calling anything OP, or QQing or anything of that nature. If you want to discuss counters to or what ST can counter, that's fine too, but the question from the outset is: can a rogue maintain 90% of their melee DPS at range?

This is not something that relies on a poster's class; it's a completely objective question, with relevance for non-rogues and rogues alike.

[Speaknoevil]

Unfortunately a lot of rogues are reacting poorly to your post because one of the only things that makes playing a rogue not miserably frustrating is shuriken toss.

Unfortunatelyagain is that deadly throw is too strong with shuriken toss, there needs to be an internal cooldown on the deadly throw interrupt of at least 20 seconds. On second thought, with the autoattack component of Shuriken Toss, Deadly Throw's interrupt could be removed entirely, and it would still be used effectively.

Anyway, a rogue shouldn't be able ot kill you with shuriken toss at range because we can't interrupt you at range, you are a hunter, you do more damage at range than we do. ST has a range of 30 yards, you have a 40y range, you can effectively deadzone us. Shadow dance, openers, eviscerates, stuns, and ruptures are all done in melee range.

[delus]

The thing was that There were no st complaints before it allowed 10 seconds of ranged auttoattacks. It is not the energy cost, damage or the fact that it builds combo points from the initial attacks. Nobody complained about those before. Those things are all balanced and without them you might as well take marked for death for significantly higher burst in pvp.

[Squirl]

Use your first global to Flare a rogue. Always. Save BW to break CC. Stampede+Deterrence is broken as hell; use it.

As far countering ST, abuse ST's pseudo-deadzone: 5-10yd. It'll do half damage. Just don't get sucked into melee range without a way out.

I don't know how a hunter loses to a rogue. If a hunter does everything right, I very rarely win. It's a hard counter; too much burst and no real way to prevent it.

If ST and DT are nerfed or removed, rogues will once again be useless. They'd have to give us actual survivability, mobility, and burst again (non-useless Recup plox?). The only reason ST is so good is the vast majority of our damage is passive: auto attacks and poisons; and our mobility is non-existent, so we can't get uptime otherwise.

[Wow]

(non-useless Recup plox?)

Their talking about bring battle fatigue up to 50% and buffing pvp power for healers and hybrids (because of the 5.3 pvp gear changes). % heals got screwed last time healing nerf was put in because of pvp power I'm sure they will again. So odds are 5.3 will make it worse than before 5.2 lol.

[Sesshou]

Their talking about bring battle fatigue up to 50% and buffing pvp power for healers and hybrids (because of the 5.3 pvp gear changes). % heals got screwed last time healing nerf was put in because of pvp power I'm sure they will again. So odds are 5.3 will make it worse than before 5.2 lol.

Why only healers and hybrids... battle fatigue effects our heal too making it heal for hardly anything...

[willtron]

If they removed - Rogues will have to be compensated in either Damage or Control/Mobility

They can't let us just be a free kill again.

[Wow]

Why only healers and hybrids... battle fatigue effects our heal too making it heal for hardly anything...

Same reason they left % heals on battle fatigue when it was 15% and 30% even though they get nothing from pvp power and pvp power was the reason for the healing nerf. Originally in beta all heals were boosted by pvp power then they said % heals were good enough on there own and took it away then nerfed all healing on live.... They said it was a bug that % heals were lowered by it and never fixed it or said another word on it since then.