Combat really *that* ahead with 4 pc?

[Ryme]

Really? That large a gap?

If that's true, the only explanation I could offer is that I'd imagine haste is the cause of a lot of it, Shadowcraft has exceptionally large love of haste ever since RPPM trinkets came into play.

[timorjin]

If you don't have latency problems, I think the 4pc mechanics for combat rogues isn't really that bad even considering the drawbacks coming from killing spree management. It is true that we suffer a lot from any loss of GCDs, but I think the overall rotation is more dynamic, exciting, and challenging compared to ASSA although it is somewhat behind. Would be nice to receive a buff.

[fierydemise]

Really? That large a gap?

If that's true, the only explanation I could offer is that I'd imagine haste is the cause of a lot of it, Shadowcraft has exceptionally large love of haste ever since RPPM trinkets came into play.

There are a few possible factors, the assassination model isn't as well optimized as the combat model. The combat model was pretty extensively overhauled in 5.2 to allow it to handle things like CD stacking, the assassination model is still operating in the earlier time averaging scheme which may be undercounting assassination relative to combat. It has never been particularly useful to compare assassination to combat in shadowcraft, both models make different assumptions to simplify the model which make comparisons very risky.

The basic conclusion however that combat falls off substantially in real world scenarios can be shown with some modifications to the back end if you model GCDs lost.

[Deleted]

Shadowcraft stat weights are a bit off for combat, it rates agility too much and haste a lot less than what it's really worth, it even rates 80 agi more than 160 haste for gems. I guess it's just not optimized yet for combat.

[Pathal]

You keep saying that. Do you have evidence to back up your claim besides "I think so therefore it is"?

[Deleted]

No solid evidence i guess, i'm basing that on the fact that simC stat weight are much different and top guilds rogues follow those instead of shadowcraft ones.

[Pathal]

The combat EP weights really aren't that different.

The only minor thing is that SimC weights secondary stats slightly higher than Shadowcraft across the board. So Shadowcraft encourages a balance of agi, agi/haste, haste gems at BiS levels, but SimC suggests agi/haste and haste. Unless you can determine where the mathematical or logic error is, it's probably not wise to start declaring one thing or another.

[Deleted]

10% from Shadowcraft Vs 2% from SimC seems like a big difference to me, i was only trying to explain why there's that difference, and the answer is different stat weights. Obviously i can't really check the workings behind each stat weight calculation made by either Shadowcraft or SimC. All i know is SimC stats have worked better for me.

[Deleted]

10% from Shadowcraft Vs 2% from SimC seems like a big difference to me, i was only trying to explain why there's that difference, and the answer is different stat weights. Obviously i can't really check the workings behind each stat weight calculation made by either Shadowcraft or SimC. All i know is SimC stats have worked better for me.

Worked better how?

[Deleted]

Worked better how?

30 minutes (x2) of the most boring dummy test ever. Difference was minimal, almost laughably so, but it was there. Not to mention i just love the increased energy regen from haste. It was before 5.2 though.

[Kael]

30 minutes (x2) of the most boring dummy test ever. Difference was minimal, almost laughably so, but it was there. Not to mention i just love the increased energy regen from haste. It was before 5.2 though.

It takes some really large differences to show up in side-by-side 30-minute tests. If you're talking hundreds/thousands of DPS, you're still in the margin of error/normal deviation for the gear. The differences should be minimal, beyond the point that regular testing can tell you if they are there or not. The majority curve of the bell from SimC's BiS profile is just about an 11k range (standard deviation). If you see, in 3x SimC-length runs, a 15k+ difference, that's probably indicative of reality. I'm assuming you saw differences of hundreds/<3k DPS, and probably without any buffs, which would nullify the test anyway.

[Deleted]

I do realize error margins have an impact on the result, but it was still a 30 minute run, that length does help a bit with error margins. Too bad i don't have the exact numbers anymore, i just wrote them on a paper and lost it but yeah, i think the difference i saw was something around 1k DPS, self buffed with drums of forgotten kings, flask and food buffs and some other thing i don't remember.

I actually wanted to make a second run so i had some results to compare, but it was just too boring :P

[Sesshou]

I will be raiding tomorrow as combat with 4pc now that a weapon finally dropped, but from what I can tell from just dungeons/scenarios/dailies it actually does less dps, but I am waiting for logs and such to prove it.

I've got my 4pc and granted all I've gotten to try it on so far is Lei Shen and heroic Jin Rokh with a handful of attempts on heroic horridon, but I do think you are right as I'm doubting I am doing as much as I could with assassination if I had a 522 dagger. I am smashing our other rogues, but I was doing that before 4pc as combat anyway (we have 2 asn and 2 combat atm). Maybe we will have an extra dagger drop this week and I can try assassination next week to compare.

Lei Shen blows because the faster AR/SB cd is semi wasted because I will only get 2 in before each transition and it will be up when the transition is over. I actually started holding off the 2nd one on p1 and p2 to coincide with my shadopan trinket because it wasn't actually preventing additional uses of my cds.

I am a little low on gear compared to the rogues I saw able to pull it off, but I can't get my AR back up during the first pool in time for it to finish if I use AR on the pull (we lust on first pool). So I am not really able to make amazing use out of it on Jin Rokh either (had like 196k dps which is below the ranking cut off for assassination even though it was 21st for west ranks as combat). I ended up having more dps by not using it on the pull and using it with lust in the pool which results in me missing an extra AR but not being able to stack it with lust and having to not only run out of the pool in the middle of it but also temporarily lose range on the boss as he jumps to the center sucked massively.

The range change to BF and the fact that there is always something to hit on Horridon did seem to make combat pretty awesome, but we only had like 4 pulls on it and didn't make it past the 3rd door.