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  1. #201
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    Soon...

    The 2 statues will be 2 giant statues of Garrosh Hellscream and Grom Hellscream.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    That's the big BS of an excuse ever. Every population has a few bad eggs. Do you purge an entire neighborhood if a few of it's dissidents grew up to be criminals?
    The Sunreavers faction, as a result of their actions, had dragged Dalaran into the war. It's not something they could just ignore.

    They'd already been though those before, the Sunreavers had been vouched for by Aethas and these events still happened. Was Jaina really going to leave a force, known to hide enemy agents untouched or in a position to do harm? It seems unlikely. That leaves getting rid of them - her preferred option and first choice when she told Aethas to leave - or imprisoning them so they could do no harm or let them run around free and let them backstab her time and time again.

    Which option is best? She wasn't going to let them run around free as the first betrayal saw Theramore destroyed and the second delivered a second WMD into the Hordes hands. She'd already tried forgiving them, already tried trusting them and trusting aethas to clean the faction up, and what it got her was a backstab.

    Don't want them to stay ... That's why you imprison Aethas ...
    AFTER he refused the option of leaving. If he woudn't go, and she didn't trust them enough to let them stay in the city free and unshackled...what was left?

    EJL
    Last edited by Talen; 2013-03-31 at 04:59 PM.

  3. #203
    I know Garrosh is an enemy to the Horde character and all but... we've ben seeing Horde fortifications along the Barrens, and now in the Vale, a nice piece of dialogue at the SoTM... what abot the Alliance? How is the Alliance's story being moved forward in this patch??

  4. #204
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
    I know Garrosh is an enemy to the Horde character and all but... we've ben seeing Horde fortifications along the Barrens, and now in the Vale, a nice piece of dialogue at the SoTM... what abot the Alliance? How is the Alliance's story being moved forward in this patch??
    Probably by gathering everyone attacking Garrosh Hellscream, Garrosh is moving his troops and his land all over Azeroth, while the rest are waiting and gathering allies for the big attack on the almighty Garrosh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    That's the big BS of an excuse ever. Every population has a few bad eggs. Do you purge an entire neighborhood if a few of it's dissidents grew up to be criminals?
    There is a difference between being born/living in a neighbourhood and joining a political organization. The Sunreavers aren't anything you're born into, it's something people voluntarily join and support because they agree with their goals. The extremists didn't do anything that isn't in the agenda of the Sunreavers, they just put said goals above those of Dalaran whom they claimed to be part of going against the interests of the mother political unit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethenil View Post
    I know Garrosh is an enemy to the Horde character and all but... we've ben seeing Horde fortifications along the Barrens, and now in the Vale, a nice piece of dialogue at the SoTM... what abot the Alliance? How is the Alliance's story being moved forward in this patch??
    Alliance what? Didn't you learn in BC that you guys are merely in for the ride. WoW is a Horde story, always was always will be and what little there is of yours is usually shared with us. For example the Draenei lore (Oshogun) and Gilneas. You guys can be lucky if you're even allowed to go to SoO!

  6. #206
    There's no amount of rationalization that can justify just presuming guilt of every single Sunreaver or other Horde-race occupant of Dalaran without any process whatsoever, no investigation, no questioning, nothing, and just giving them an immediate option of banishment, indefinite incarceration, or death. I mean, Dalaran was many of these people's homes, and the only reason the Kirin Tor weren't pulling them out of their beds was because it was apparently day time when the purge began.

    There are many ways, I will say, in which what was done in Dalaran was less ethical than what happened to Theramore. Theramore was a military target marched on openly by a military force. It was blown up by a bomb. There were relatively few civilian casualties because they had warning and a window in which to evacuate them. There is a lot that is dishonorable about how it happened and the tactics used, but it was still basically a military engagement. In Dalaran what you have was an unannounced, across the board purge of civilian residents based purely on speculation because of what were the actions of only a handful.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    and just giving them an immediate option of banishment, indefinite incarceration, or death.
    They didn't even get that, really. Aethas was the only one she issued that ultimatum to; all of the others were to be thrown in mage jail, and had their mounts subdued or killed to prevent anyone from leaving.

    Jaina's biggest mistake was using the Silver Covenant instead of more... impartial violet personnel to round up the Sunreavers, if what happened in the sewers is anything to go by. The Sunreaver civilians even think the Kirin Tor will come to their rescue and stop what the SC is doing.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The Sunreavers faction, as a result of their actions, had dragged Dalaran into the war. It's not something they could just ignore.
    Drag into a war? It's only a war if King Chin takes an issue with it. I know he is more of a gladiator than a "ruler". But if he cannot understand that purging a group of people because of a few bad eggs is wrong ... then he is not much different from Garrosh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    There is a difference between being born/living in a neighbourhood and joining a political organization. The Sunreavers aren't anything you're born into, it's something people voluntarily join and support because they agree with their goals. The extremists didn't do anything that isn't in the agenda of the Sunreavers, they just put said goals above those of Dalaran whom they claimed to be part of going against the interests of the mother political unit.
    So a hospital has a few doctors that violated medical ethics. Fire them all including the janitor. /rolleyes

    Whether an organisation is "join at will" or not is irrelevant. No organisation is perfect. A good number of humans willingly joined the Scourge. Purge all humans right?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-31 at 05:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaelsino View Post
    They didn't even get that, really. Aethas was the only one she issued that ultimatum to; all of the others were to be thrown in mage jail, and had their mounts subdued or killed to prevent anyone from leaving.

    Jaina's biggest mistake was using the Silver Covenant instead of more... impartial violet personnel to round up the Sunreavers, if what happened in the sewers is anything to go by. The Sunreaver civilians even think the Kirin Tor will come to their rescue and stop what the SC is doing.
    LOL. Totally forgot about that.

    Leave this city at once!

    Impound transportation out of city ...
    Last edited by SodiumChloride; 2013-03-31 at 06:02 PM.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormdash View Post
    There's no amount of rationalization that can justify just presuming guilt of every single Sunreaver or other Horde-race occupant of Dalaran without any process whatsoever, no investigation, no questioning, nothing, and just giving them an immediate option of banishment, indefinite incarceration, or death. I mean, Dalaran was many of these people's homes, and the only reason the Kirin Tor weren't pulling them out of their beds was because it was apparently day time when the purge began.
    Actually there is. Every single last Sunreaver member knew exactly what they were getting into, they signed up for the Sunreavers and agreed to uphold their ideology, believes and goals. They did so because they agreed with them and made them their own. It's a bit similar to saying people joining the KKK or some Gang don't know what they're getting into and not each one of them is "guilty".
    The Sunreavers were for all purposes a fifth column, they acted against the direct wishes and goals of the mother organization to whom they owed loyality, they actively sabotaged Dalarans efforts and actions, they participated in the mass slaughter and destruction of a whole city and then helped delivering a weapon of mass destruction to Garrosh using the trust and access they were granted by the mother organization.
    If you were member of a political organization pulling such a thing irl, you can be sure as hell that you'd be in prison in no team or at the very least in handcuffs on your way to some holding facility till they can sort out whether or not you're actually a terrorist and or guilty of high treason. Try fighting back and you'll end up dead even irl.

    The Sunreavers were given a chance after the first instance of something like this happening, something most organizations irl would never have gotten and they squandered it. Aethas was either unwilling or unable to control the other Sunreavers and so were everyone else. Keeping such a thing secret is no easy feat and seeing how it was in the general interests of the Sunreavers them turning a blind eye or two is very likely.

    There are many ways, I will say, in which what was done in Dalaran was less ethical than what happened to Theramore. Theramore was a military target marched on openly by a military force. It was blown up by a bomb. There were relatively few civilian casualties because they had warning and a window in which to evacuate them. There is a lot that is dishonorable about how it happened and the tactics used, but it was still basically a military engagement. In Dalaran what you have was an unannounced, across the board purge of civilian residents based purely on speculation because of what were the actions of only a handful.
    They were Sunreavers, every single last one of them. Would it be less bad to be member of the Nazi/Communist party because you're a kindergardener? NO! What happened was a fifth column being purged which is the only right way to deal with such a thing. Whoever allows a fifth column to fester and grow is spelling certain doom for himself.
    This whole "but they were Civilians" simply doesn't apply, also it ignores how the vast majority of them were armed and actually fought back against being taken into custody. Try fighting back against the police even if you're innocent and see how that works out when they have ample reasons to suspect you participated in actions endangering the national security and conspired with hostile forces.

    Theramore on the other hand was more akin to the Nagasaki or Hiroshima bombings. Did it have walls? Yes! Did it have soldiers stationed in it? Yes! Did it supply and house soldiers? Yes! But by that logic there are no civilian targets to begin with. Soldiers are usually stationed in/around cities, they're hubs for transportation, supplies and products used by the military.
    Following your logic we can go back to the good old days of firebombings and carpet bombings since there are no real "civilian" targets nor are there civilians if anything they're "non combat enemy forces" ,"unarmed enemy second row combatants", "enemy supply and production troops" or something similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    Drag into a war? It's only a war if King Chin takes an issue with it. I know he is more of a gladiator than a "ruler". But if he can not understand that purging a group of people because of a few bad eggs is wrong ... then he is not much different from Garrosh.
    WTF are you talking about? The war is in full effect for quite some time. The Sunreavers used and abused the resources and trust of Dalaran to aid the Horde. They were the ones who dragged Dalaran into the war and not Varian.
    So a hospital has a few doctors that violated medical ethics. Fire them all including the janitor. /rolleyes
    And this is again a completly wrong comparison. You guys are trying to come up with group of peoples who aside from one commom denominator have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. We're talking here about an POLITICAL ORGANIZATION every single last one joined WILLINGLY because they AGREED and SUPPORTED said groups ideals and beliefs.
    A better comparison would be a group of doctors forming a secret society to advance medical knowledge by experimenting on patients in all kind of horrible ways. Some of them didn't actively participate but merely studied, read and knew about it (and supported it without dirtying their own hands). By your logic these should be let off the hook.

    Whether an organisation is "join at will" or not is irrelevant. No organisation is perfect. A good number of humans willingly joined the Scourge. Purge all humans right?
    Again a horrible and plain wrong comparison. First if all willingy joining something is important and is relevant. Also you're coming up with a real horrible argument once again. Why all humans? Did all humans willingly join the scourge? Oh no wait! They didn't! Purge those who joined the scourge? Yes! Because that's exactly what we're doing in game.
    Same goes for the Sunreavers who WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY joined the Sunreavers, they knew exactly what they were getting into. Nobody ever said anything about anyone outside of the Sunreavers and even the whole "racism" thing some people bring up doesn't really fly since the Silver Covenant are the very same people just with different beliefs.


    LOL. Totally forgot about that.

    Leave this city at once!

    Impound transportation out of city ...
    1. They refused to go.
    2. Vereesa sabotaged those, without Jainas knowledge.
    Last edited by mmoc5e6c40f22c; 2013-03-31 at 06:06 PM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    snip
    It isn't that easy to say who is to blame for this whole fiasco in the end, both sides did some shady stuff and both are responsible.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Actually there is. Every single last Sunreaver member knew exactly what they were getting into, they signed up for the Sunreavers and agreed to uphold their ideology, believes and goals. They did so because they agreed with them and made them their own. It's a bit similar to saying people joining the KKK or some Gang don't know what they're getting into and not each one of them is "guilty".
    This is the rationale of tyrants, sorry. The Sunreavers aren't like this known malevolent, no-good bunch of low lives. You make it sound like willingly allying with them is like signing up for the local neo-Nazi newsletter. The Sunreavers helped fight both the Nexus War and the war against the Lich King. And, what again, exactly, did Uda the Beast sign up for? She wasn't an attaché for the Horde, she wasn't a Sunreaver. She was just an Orc running a peaceable business, and by all indications minding her own. GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!

    The average Blood Elf living in Dalaran was no more militant or political or associated with espionage than would the Sparkshines be. That's who the Purge hit; their blood elf counterparts.

    Theramore on the other hand was more akin to the Nagasaki or Hiroshima bombings.
    So the historical allegory question would be, what was more unethical, those bombings, or kristallnacht? I suspect we would probably be on opposite sides of that question as well, since I say the latter.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It isn't that easy to say who is to blame for this whole fiasco in the end, both sides did some shady stuff and both are responsible.
    Hence "War"craft. But on a more specific note: it's all Jaina's fault.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDDGuides View Post
    Hence "War"craft. But on a more specific note: it's all Jaina's fault.
    Care to elaborate why?

  14. #214
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    It's not all Jaina's fault and that isn't the point of the thraed. Can we just get over Jaina Proudmoore and Dalaran already.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

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  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Care to elaborate why?
    because shes a women...... hehehehee
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  16. #216
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    Could you please, put [spoilers] in it, and not spoil it in the title?
    Many thanks!
    ___________( •̪●) --(FOR THE ALLIANCE!)
    ░░░░░░███████ ]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▃
    ▂▄▅█████████▅▄▃▂
    I███████████████████].
    ◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙◤...

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Care to elaborate why?

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDDGuides View Post
    Emotes please XD

    It is rather hard to detect jokes and sarcasm otherwise.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    WTF are you talking about? The war is in full effect for quite some time. The Sunreavers used and abused the resources and trust of Dalaran to aid the Horde. They were the ones who dragged Dalaran into the war and not Varian.
    WTF are you talking about? It won't be "dragging" anyone into a war if King Chin doesn't kick up a fess about it. The Horde isn't going to attack Dalaran. They can stay out of it if the Alliance exhibit some common sense and doesn't move against them.

    And this is again a completly wrong comparison. You guys are trying to come up with group of peoples who aside from one commom denominator have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. We're talking here about an POLITICAL ORGANIZATION every single last one joined WILLINGLY because they AGREED and SUPPORTED said groups ideals and beliefs.
    A better comparison would be a group of doctors forming a secret society to advance medical knowledge by experimenting on patients in all kind of horrible ways. Some of them didn't actively participate but merely studied, read and knew about it (and supported it without dirtying their own hands). By your logic these should be let off the hook.
    The Sunreavers were not formed to "betray" Dalaran. They had a few bad eggs.

    Your "comparison" is FAIL.

    Again a horrible and plain wrong comparison. First if all willingy joining something is important and is relevant. Also you're coming up with a real horrible argument once again. Why all humans? Did all humans willingly join the scourge? Oh no wait! They didn't! Purge those who joined the scourge? Yes! Because that's exactly what we're doing in game.
    Same goes for the Sunreavers who WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY joined the Sunreavers, they knew exactly what they were getting into. Nobody ever said anything about anyone outside of the Sunreavers and even the whole "racism" thing some people bring up doesn't really fly since the Silver Covenant are the very same people just with different beliefs.
    Precisely! You investigate who was involved and purged those. NOT THE ENTIRE SUNREAVERS ORGANISATION!!

    1. They refused to go.
    2. Vereesa sabotaged those, without Jainas knowledge.
    Right ... refuse to go ... which is why they were trying to get their dragonhawks back ...

    Purge the Silver Convet I suppose. A few of them directly sabotaged a Kirin Tor operation, heavily damaging Dalaran's reputation in the process.

  20. #220
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Purge the Silver Convet I suppose. A few of them directly sabotaged a Kirin Tor operation heavily damaging Dalaran's reputation in the process.
    Doing that would nearly genocide the High Elves. How about we just umm do a *Internal affairs* thing to both groups. Aethas being silent isn't helpful at this point either but not the point of the thread.
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