Something Greater and more Powerful than Sargeras?

[Lolretadin]

do you not even play wow anymore? the mogu were the armies of the titans who after being afflicted by the curse of the flesh overthrew the watcher who was in charge of them because they decided they could do their "gods" work better than them.

Yes, but if I remember correctly there was a connection between the Mogu and either the Old Gods or the Legion. I think it was the Legion, I would have to double check, but it is late and I really could care less about justification to you at this point.

Either way, I think we can agree that there is no single entity more powerful than Sargeras, at the very least.

[Immitis]

Yes, but if I remember correctly there was a connection between the Mogu and either the Old Gods or the Legion. I think it was the Legion, I would have to double check, but it is late and I really could care less about justification to you at this point.

there was never any connection to the mogu and any thing other than the titans, and even then they were only loosely connected by coincidence until 5.2 confirmed that they were the former armies of the titans who fought against the armies of the old gods

[apepi]

do you not even play wow anymore? the mogu were the armies of the titans who after being afflicted by the curse of the flesh overthrew the watcher who was in charge of them because they decided they could do their "gods" work better than them.

Actually the watcher stop giving commands(because the titans did as well) so that is why they took command.


I wonder if the curse can effect watchers or even titans themselves....

[Deleted]

I would be the greatest thing if WoW 6.0 had the unleashing of the actual physical body of an Old God at full strength, while the Burning Legion invades. And we are stuck in the middle between an Old God and the Dark Titan.

[Itisamuh]

The Old Gods are pretty explicitly hinted at being more powerful than Titans, on an individual basis. They were simply outnumbered.

Sargeras is historically the main villain in the Warcraft universe, but the Old Gods are the greater looming threat if they were to get free.

[Immitis]

Actually the watcher stop giving commands(because the titans did as well) so that is why they took command.


I wonder if the curse can effect watchers or even titans themselves....

its possible, although ra den seems to be atleast on the inside partially biological. maybe the titans are cyborgs and not robots/golems like their creations

[Deleted]

Please no. Sargeras has been built up as the big-bad since before WoW came out. I don't want some random being that we've never heard of before to be the ultimate big-bad.

With all due honesty but we as wow players learned more about Old Gods then we ever did about Sargeras, last expansion was pretty much Old God's army leaded by their strongest minion, Deathwing. Now you might say that TBC was all about the burning legion, but outside of Mark of Sargeras, Kil'Jaeden quote and presumibly Sargeras's own words during Undercity invasion, we know jack crap about him if we include WoW as main lore source, and yes I will say it, majority of WoW players use WoW game as their main lore source, no matter how much lore, info, pictures and stuff you put into books and other media, the primary lore source for your average joe is and will be the game.

As it stands now:
- We battled C'thun who mind raped you constantly in his raid. Only to see him come back agian proving that Old Gods simply do not stay dead.
- Yogg-Saron who mind raped you even more and made enough mess to even force our hands agianst a Titan messanger (Good guy in scale of the universe) to save Azeorth and Old Gods along with it (I bet those Old Gods who knew about it laugh their tentacles, when 10/25 heroes put everything on the line to save them). Not to mention that Yogg-Saron was not permamentaly killed and still has the possibility to return once agian if he patches himself up quickly enough.
- Next we also had to fight their probably strongest minion who was teeth's skin away from destroying entire Azeorth if it werent for all Aspects who sacrificed all their immortal powers. Basically we had to sacrifice Titan's last line of defense just to take out their single pawn which originated from that very line of defense itself.
- And finally, if it werent for the Old Gods and their curse of flesh, all races of Azeroth would not even come to exist to play their twisted game.

In summary:
- We have to corpse camp an Old God.
- spawn camp the other one after he made us enemies with the biggest good guys.
- Lost one of our best Titan weapons (the aspects).
- Live with the fact that they are our indirect creators due to curse of flesh.

Not to mention the Sha, who grow more powerful the more angry/sad/proud/ their enemies are. Too strong to ignore, to durable to bother with.

and the more we fight them the worse it gets.

Sorry but from where I am looking at it, Old Gods are global scale master trolls who only get fed and fed the further fight with them drags on. They are like an advanced gangrene on a limb (Azeroth) where the only solution is to cut it off and throw away, while the host (Azeroth inhabitants) refuse to do so no matter how much worse and worse its gets. It's like constantly falling for the scorched earth tactic and refusing to learn from it.

Whoever said that Sargeras is nothing compared to Old Gods was perhaps right?

[Deleted]

It's N'Zoth, he's responsible for Neltharion's madness.

[Deleted]

Just because we see the old gods do a lot of s**t in the later expansions, while Sargeras stays out of scene doesnt mean they are superb. Where were the Old Gods all those years while Azeroth battled the Burning Legion? Cowering in their pits perhaps? How is it that immediately after the Burning Legion was cast away and their puppet, the Scourge, was contained, they make their manifest into the world? I see that as a kinda "huh, the big guy is gone, it's our time now!". Yes, they succeeded in corrupting one of the aspects. But it is nearly not as impressive as Sargeras's corruption of the last guardian of Tirisfal, said to be the single most powerful force on Azeroth.

It stands to reason that the Old Gods and Sargeras are natural enemies, while the latest wants to undo the world the Old Gods live in, them included. So why didn't they stand up and fight the Burning Legion in the First and Third War, and let the mortal races to fend for themselves, as such leaving all to chance?

[Deleted]

The titans went toe-to-toe against the old gods and beat them 5-0. I think a titan, especially one as powerful as Sargeras, with the burning legion behind him, would be more than a match for the old gods.

I believe the character "musing" that the old gods were more powerful than the Legion was Rhonin... who is by no means omniscient.

The titan deafeated the old gods simply cause they were much more than thoses ones on the "battleground", while the old gods were only five.

Just because we see the old gods do a lot of s**t in the later expansions, while Sargeras stays out of scene doesnt mean they are superb. Where were the Old Gods all those years while Azeroth battled the Burning Legion? Cowering in their pits perhaps? How is it that immediately after the Burning Legion was cast away and their puppet, the Scourge, was contained, they make their manifest into the world? I see that as a kinda "huh, the big guy is gone, it's our time now!". Yes, they succeeded in corrupting one of the aspects. But it is nearly not as impressive as Sargeras's corruption of the last guardian of Tirisfal, said to be the single most powerful force on Azeroth.

It stands to reason that the Old Gods and Sargeras are natural enemies, while the latest wants to undo the world the Old Gods live in, them included. So why didn't they stand up and fight the Burning Legion in the First and Third War, and let the mortal races to fend for themselves, as such leaving all to chance?

Cause they were imprisoned beneath Azeroth ... did you ever read the lore ?

[Deleted]

The titan deafeated the old gods simply cause they were much more than thoses ones on the "battleground", while the old gods were only five.



Cause they were imprisoned beneath Azeroth ... did you ever read the lore ?

You lack logic. They are imprisoned for what, some million years? And suddenly, in a matter of few years they get free? If you ever played WotLK, you'd know that Yog'Saron is tainting the mind of Loken not long after Ulduar has been built. Which is in the end of the war between them and the titans. Similar connections can be found in the downfall of the Amani empire - the creature Hakkar is a minion of the old gods.

So now, their presence is felt during all of the world's existance, but ceasing during the Legion's invasions. How do you interpret that?

[Gnarles Malarkey]

Old Gods stronger than Sargeras? Probably, sure. Seeing as Blue posters speak more of the story than Metzen has these last few years, anything is possible.

Now, are they stronger than the entire Pantheon? No. Otherwise, they would have gone wayward under Old God influence, just like Sargeras did. Incidentally, the story being sewn for the next expansion is exactly the same one we've have for a good fifteen years now, except it's Titans having lost a brother instead of the Dragon Aspects having lost one.

[Deleted]

Just because we see the old gods do a lot of s**t in the later expansions, while Sargeras stays out of scene doesnt mean they are superb.

Perhaps not superb, but definetaly more active. Also Old Gods can affect the world without directly interfering since they are part of the world.

Where were the Old Gods all those years while Azeroth battled the Burning Legion? Cowering in their pits perhaps? How is it that immediately after the Burning Legion was cast away and their puppet, the Scourge, was contained, they make their manifest into the world? I see that as a kinda "huh, the big guy is gone, it's our time now!".

It's called fighting smart. Two dogs strive for a bone and the third runs away with it.

Yes, they succeeded in corrupting one of the aspects. But it is nearly not as impressive as Sargeras's corruption of the last guardian of Tirisfal, said to be the single most powerful force on Azeroth.

Apperantly the best that guardian could pull off as the most powerful force on Azeroth was only bringing an alien race to wage war, while the aspect nearly destroyed it. Sorry but there's no match here.

It stands to reason that the Old Gods and Sargeras are natural enemies, while the latest wants to undo the world the Old Gods live in, them included. So why didn't they stand up and fight the Burning Legion in the First and Third War, and let the mortal races to fend for themselves, as such leaving all to chance?

http://www.wowpedia.org/Burning_legion
"destroy any trace of order in the universe" - I see no "blow up planet Azeroth DBZ style". Also before the titans dropped down for a visit, Azeroth was anything but trace of order:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_Gods#Ordering_of_Azeroth
"before the titans came to Azeroth, the malign Old Gods - colossal beings of elemental fury - ruled the world and the savage elementals that dwelt upon it, a bloody chaos of which even the demon Lords of the Burning Legion could not imagine"

Sargeras wanted to invade Azeroth because of the Well of Eternity energies and later on for revenge. Sargeras had no reason to invade Azeroth when it was under Old God's control. Azeroth as a world was exactly as he wished it to be, free from titan's order.

[Deleted]

Pretty sure someone from Blizzard once said that Sargeras was the biggest Baddie in wow

[Deleted]

I don't like the idea of having something so powerful, because it begs the question, if he/she/it is that powerful why don't they just wipe out Azeroth completely?

[TJ]

The Old Gods are pretty explicitly hinted at being more powerful than Titans, on an individual basis. They were simply outnumbered.

Sargeras is historically the main villain in the Warcraft universe, but the Old Gods are the greater looming threat if they were to get free.

Not really, an unnamed Titan (not even a high ranked one) went 1 on 1 with C'Thun and they both fell. If that was Sargeras, Aggrammar or one of the big guns, C'Thun would've been slaughtered. I believe Sargeras would easily slaughter the Old Gods, they work with minions and mind control, not direct combat, therefore they wouldn't stand a chance imo.

---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 10:05 AM ----------

I don't like the idea of having something so powerful, because it begs the question, if he/she/it is that powerful why don't they just wipe out Azeroth completely?

Because it's a game ;D but also because Sargeras is in a "lingo" so to speak, so he currently can't. I guess that's Blizzard's reason for why.

[Wildmoon]

I wanna clear something up about Sargeras and Old Gods.

1.Sargeras's goal is that he wants to "undo" all works the Pantheon has done. Sargeras is not some kind of batshit insane villian that destroy things randomly for the sake of it. He has his ideal about what this universe should be. He believes that he is correcting the titans's mistakes which we don't really know who is right or wrong. You could interpret his goal as both wanting the universe to go back to its root which is chaos or wanting to end all things. I don't know which one is right.

2.Sargeras seemed to know of Azeroth for the first time when NEs carelessly used the power of WoE and its reached him and made him notice Azeroth. This means that the titans found Azeroth after Sargeras stormed from their rank. This also means that Sargeras wasn't there when they fought against old gods.

3.It has been stated that there are old gods on other planets as well. It's likely that Sargeras who posses cosmic knowledge know about Old God's existence too because his work was to cleanse evil from this universe in the first place. While he was travelling across universe he must have encountered one atleast.

4.I remember that Kosak said once that titans have killed a lot of Old gods not on Azeroth already. I am not sure on this one.

5.Krasus stated that even Sargeras would cower in fear before the might of Old gods then go on to say that only combined power of the Aspects will be able to fight agianst old god. In fact, 5 aspects combined wouldn't stand a chance against Sargeras considering Archimonde whose power was comparable to an aspect is like a flea compare to Sargeras in both size and power. This makes Krasus's statement really questionable.

6.Many people said Old Gods were outnumbered but only source on this which is the in game book called "The Old Gods and the Ordering of Azeroth" stated that it was the Pantheon who was outnumbered with vast and endless armies of faceless ones and elemental lords's forces. Combined forces of The Old Gods and Elords were defeated by the titans.

[Deleted]

Old Gods were and are stronger...
It was stated that Titans UNITED ! to imprison the Old gods....
+ as the theory tells Old Gods don't die...They can't just die :
- They do not die; they do not live. They are outside the cycle. (Herald Volazj)

One by one, the Old Gods were defeated and sequestered, but from this great siege between the gods, the rumor of a Titan having fallen echoes across the ages.
The Curse of Flesh had grown so malign, however, that it had symbiotically bound the infant world to the Old Gods, and their destruction would have ensured the annihilation of Azeroth. Instead, the Pantheon neutralized the power of the Old Gods, and sealed the entities away within the deeps of the world for the remainder of its existence.

- It would be a suicide to kill Old Gods...cause many titan creation would die (because of curse of flesh) . And + no everyone wanted to turn to stone again...Imagine all Dwarfs and gnomes become Metal and Stone.

In the novel The Sundering, it is hinted that the Old Gods are more powerful than the Titans, including even Sargeras. It is said that they are extremely powerful and that the combined might of many Titans are required to subdue them. It is also stated that if they are freed, even Sargeras will plead for peace of death. This is further supported by their statement that little effort is needed to destroy Sargeras and turn his Burning Legion into their minions.

They had ruled over the primal plane until the coming of the world’s creators. There had been war of cosmic proportions and, in the end, the Old Gods had fallen. The Old Gods had been cast down into eternal imprisonment, the place of their confinement hidden from all and their powers bound until the end of time.

Old Gods are and will be more powerful then the Titans Sargeras etc...All the time we frighted Fragments of All Gods....I can't even imagine a Full size of and Old god...it C'thuns Eye is almost size of Elemental Lords...Then Imagine Full body (and they are similar to Faceless)

[Dryade]

Eru Ilúvatar

[Valerean]

That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons, even death may die...

Generally what Metzen says, goes. If Sargeras is the ultimate baddie in the Book of Metzen, then we should probably take that as a lore certainty.