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  1. #281
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Miatela View Post
    > Atonement is lower HPS relative to our actual heals yet is required for AA. Without AA any of our other heals are comparatively weak.
    > Atonement is centered around your DPS target and you are at range. Let's say you are healing as a Disc Priest on Megaera. You have been given Tank 1. Tank 1 ends up tanking the red head while DPS target is the green head. Your Atonement heals cannot reach Tank 1.
    > Atonement is a lower HPS playstyle than a balanced usage of shields and other healers. When damage gets tough, I certainly don't continue with Atonement and hope for the best - that simply wouldn't work. Just as a monk would stop fist weaving when damage is high.
    > Atonement is supposed to make up for Disc having no adequate AoE heals.
    > Leads to other healers having a greater amount of overheal, decreasing raid group efficiency.

    Unfortunately, remove Atonement (or nerf it too much) and you have a pretty pitiful excuse for healing left. The current changes are fine, but it would be wonderful if Disc actually had an AoE healing option instead of "grimace through it and Penance the boss".
    > Atonement HPS is higher than using your single target heals, so no.
    > Raid comp issue, tell your RL to stop being stupid
    > If a Monk wants to switch from FWing to MWing he/she needs to be constantly using Renewing Mists in conjunction with the FW skills. Note: the legendary meta does not proc from FWing skills (jab, TP, BoK) so it's mana intensive, in fact it's awful for mana regen. Utterly terrible. Also note that MWs cannot AoE heal while doing their damage: Priests can switch without too much issue.
    > PoH / PoM are good spells. SS is a good spell too.
    > Is this seriously a downside? "THE METHOD OF HEALING DOES TOO MUCH HEALING SO IT HURTS THE OTHER HEALERS" ... Er no, it means a DPS orientated healer is doing more healing than a ... healing orientated healer, and thus removing raid spots from potentially better skilled players because Atonement is stupid. It requires no thought. It's mindless and yet so effective.

  2. #282
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzeh View Post
    It's...still a drawback. Atonement heals going to people that don't really need them.

    Smart heals aren't always the smartest thing to use.

    If the argument is that "Atonement is almost always the best thing to use," and a situation arises where it isn't...that's a drawback.

    draw·back
    noun \ˈdrȯ-ˌbak\
    : an objectionable feature : disadvantage

    The *disadvantage* to "smart heals" is they don't always go to the targets you want them to.

    (oh, and just because people love to argue:
    dis·ad·van·tage
    noun \ˌdis-əd-ˈvan-tij\
    a : an unfavorable, inferior, or prejudicial condition)

    If heal A is *ever* a better option to heal B, heal B is disadvantaged in that situation.

    But hey, I'm just arguing semantics at this point to see how far you'll go.

    Atonement has drawbacks and limitations; some brought up that I haven't mentioned (needing hostile targets), and ONE in particular that none of the hardcore Atonement bashers have touched (aka healing the casting Priest for 50%).

    Note: I'm still not arguing in favor of Atonement, I'm just saying don't say it doesn't have drawbacks (because then it WOULD be the smartest choice, always).
    Then every single heal has that exact same "drawback." Or rather, the "drawback" to Atonement is the fact that a human can choose to use it improperly. So no...it's not atonement a fault that YOU casted it at the wrong time. If you need to designate your heals to a certain person, you are wrong using smart heals to do it.

    Again...not atonement's fault.

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  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    > If a Monk wants to switch from FWing to MWing he/she needs to be constantly using Renewing Mists in conjunction with the FW skills. Note: the legendary meta does not proc from FWing skills (jab, TP, BoK) so it's mana intensive, in fact it's awful for mana regen. Utterly terrible. Also note that MWs cannot AoE heal while doing their damage: Priests can switch without too much issue.
    I agree with the rest, but this seems a bit wrong. Even if you're fistweaving, there is no reason to skip RM. With RM & EH, monks also generate extra Chi, which they can use to AoE heal. But for longer periods of AoE, they need to go back to mistweaving.

    Atonement is better incorporated into disc tool set -Penance being the smart AoE heal, AA depending on Evangelism, Sol giving mana-, compared to Fistweaving almost being like another Stance/Chakra thing though.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Then every single heal has that exact same "drawback." Or rather, the "drawback" to Atonement is the fact that a human can choose to use it improperly. So no...it's not atonement a fault that YOU casted it at the wrong time. If you need to designate your heals to a certain person, you are wrong using smart heals to do it.

    Again...not atonement's fault.
    Mind to give us a few examples of spells that actually have drawbacks, if casting it in the wrong situation doesn't count? Just to demonstrate that this is actually a criterium to differentiate between spells?
    And yes, it is not atonement's fault, lacking a concience it obviously can't be at fault. The same is true for any other ability.


    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 04:22 PM ----------

    @Treseme: Please read the previous post in this thread as they adress all points you bring up and offer counterarguments.
    Just repeating already countered points just to see if we already forgot about having discussed them before is rude - as is not reading at least the last few posts of the thread you jump into.
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-04-23 at 04:23 PM.

  5. #285
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    > Atonement HPS is higher than using your single target heals, so no.
    > If a Monk wants to switch from FWing to MWing he/she needs to be constantly using Renewing Mists in conjunction with the FW skills. Note: the legendary meta does not proc from FWing skills (jab, TP, BoK) so it's mana intensive, in fact it's awful for mana regen. Utterly terrible. Also note that MWs cannot AoE heal while doing their damage: Priests can switch without too much issue.
    I dont follow you: you do not need to fistweave at all as a healing monk, you can ignore it altogether, you have cheaper ways for chi generation. You dont need to use RM in conjunction with FW skills, you can just use RM. The metagem doesnt proc from atonement smite/holy fire/solace either. Disc priests cannot aoe heal while doing dmg, atonement is a single target spell. In fact, a mistweaver can aoe heal while doing dmg with SCK, which also generates chi, which you can use for uplift, which is..an aoe heal? Also good for tea generation?

    Disc priests cannot gain evangelism stacks from archangel from any other spells other than offensive ones. They have no alternative.

    I know fistweaving is mana expensive, but it is not mandatory for a monk to perform. On the other hand, archangel is essential to a disc priest output.

  6. #286
    Yes, that is the problem of comparing parts of mechanics of different classes. If you exspect them not to be different, why do you exspect those classes to have different names? This is why I called that comparison to monks off topic. Pointing out mechanics of other classes to illustrate ideas is fine, doing a quantitive comparison of parts of their toolkit is not, blueposters point this out weekly.

  7. #287
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    I dont follow you: you do not need to fistweave at all as a healing monk, you can ignore it altogether, you have cheaper ways for chi generation. You dont need to use RM in conjunction with FW skills, you can just use RM. The metagem doesnt proc from atonement smite/holy fire/solace either. Disc priests cannot aoe heal while doing dmg, atonement is a single target spell. In fact, a mistweaver can aoe heal while doing dmg with SCK, which also generates chi, which you can use for uplift, which is..an aoe heal? Also good for tea generation?

    Disc priests cannot gain evangelism stacks from archangel from any other spells other than offensive ones. They have no alternative.

    I know fistweaving is mana expensive, but it is not mandatory for a monk to perform. On the other hand, archangel is essential to a disc priest output.
    Just to clarify, if you're using SCK to generate chi and using it to primarily AoE heal you're doing it wrong. SCK heals are pathetic, as is the damage unless you can generate Muscle Memory from it (which requires 3 hostile targets). I fully agree MWs are capable of healing outside of their 'damage kit', but Disc Priests should be able to as well. Hence why Atonement needs to be nerfed and, if needs be, buffs to the single target heals to make them more attractive.

  8. #288
    Deleted
    Just to clarify, if you're using SCK to generate chi and using it to primarily AoE heal you're doing it wrong. SCK heals are pathetic, as is the damage unless you can generate Muscle Memory from it (which requires 3 hostile targets). I fully agree MWs are capable of healing outside of their 'damage kit', but Disc Priests should be able to as well.
    The only reason I mentioned it is that it is possible, not saying it is optimal, I only play a monk as an alt and I'm in no way deeply familiar with their mechanics. I didn't say one should use SCK just to generate chi, but its is an aoe heal via dmg. Your own words:
    Also note that MWs cannot AoE heal while doing their damage: Priests can switch without too much issue.
    Implies that disc can aoe heal while doing dmg? As much as penance can work a sort of placeholder for an aoe, its not really an aoe, the balls might hit 3 different people, or 2 or just one, and it will still hit them one after another. It's a wannabe aoe really, with the tightest "target cap".
    Implies that monks can't switch to aoe healing? Sure, it needs some pre-spreading of RM, but so does spirit shell require pre-casting. Chi wave doesn't risk loosing charges like pom does when the target doesnt take further dmg.

    And disc priests used to be able to heal without needing atonement, back in cata. Not anymore. You can try as hard as you might, you will not perform as disc atm without using offensive spells: archangel is too huge of a buff to miss and atonement itself is better healing than our single target spells. We already use prayer of healing everywhere it is viable, atonement is not really a replacement for poh. So what is left to replace atonement with? Gheal? When was the last time you saw any class healing a lot with their large slow single target heal? Heal? We already use PWS fairly, even if it conflicts with mending.

  9. #289
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Mind to give us a few examples of spells that actually have drawbacks, if casting it in the wrong situation doesn't count? Just to demonstrate that this is actually a criterium to differentiate between spells?
    And yes, it is not atonement's fault, lacking a concience it obviously can't be at fault. The same is true for any other ability.


    ---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 04:22 PM ----------

    @Treseme: Please read the previous post in this thread as they adress all points you bring up and offer counterarguments.
    Just repeating already countered points just to see if we already forgot about having discussed them before is rude - as is not reading at least the last few posts of the thread you jump into.
    Every. Single. Spell. All have the potential to be used wrong.

    Circle of Healing. If you cast it when less than three people need healing, you have used the wrong spell. If the tank needs healing and you cast this you used the wrong spell.

    Greater Heal. Whole raid is taking damage and you decided to cast a GH. Wasted time, more work for other healers.

    Guardian Spirit. Casted on a player not in danger of dying. Even if the target was low but in no immediate danger, this is wasted.

    Prayer of Healing. Cast it on the wrong target and you potentially won't heal everyone in the group.

    I think you can see the point. If you are usin atonement and your tank needs direct heals, YOU chose wrong. You using atonement in that situation is like me using CoH and Cascade back to back, ignorin the immediate need of the tank. You can stop casting atonement and start another heal in less than a second, so anything you don't do to the tank is due to your lack of attention and spell choice. This is the very crux of healing: using the right spells at the right time. All spells have this same potential drawback because all spells can be used at the wrong time. So it's not really a drawback; simply operator (player) error.

    As far as actual drawbacks to spells? A good example would be Renew and Holy Nova. They have extremely impractical uses it most situations, though renew will get some use from Holy in certain situations. There is so little oomph to these spells that casting them is not desirable. When you are discussing drawbacks, you have to look at healing as a whole. Toolkits are used, not just tools. But when you have one (set of) spells like Atonement that fulfills so many roles, has very little repercussion, and can be used almost exclusively to complete a job then you have a spell that is overwhelmingly powerful. I'm not saying that using atonement exclusively is smart, but you can bet it will make up a great majority of your spellcasts and you really don't have to think about what you are doing.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-04-23 at 05:27 PM.

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  10. #290
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Except that mistweavers have also the option of mistweaving, not just fistweaving, and mistweaving is viable and better than fistweaving. You can heal top notch by never touching the boss.

    I invite you to try healing as a disc priest never casting an offensive spell. What spells will you use? Outside spirit shell, you will be a vanilla healer, casting spells that have close to no synergy atm. And even with spirit shell, you will still be casting the same vanilla old spells.
    I cannot agree more - this is the real issue. Give me more options and synergy with non-offensive spells and I would not defend atonement. But we have currently only one strong play - atonement (into Archangel). When Atonement would be "forbidden", Raid falls down and AOE is needed?Push Cascade and wish luck to other healers (and support them by PoH/PoM ofc, but it is not very strong support).

    Crazy idea - It would be fun to replace smart heal atonement by some kind of "beacon" - to be cast on target who will then be healing target for atonement. Perhaps offCD moving of this beacon to new person. This would remove the SOLVE ALL nature of atonement + introduce some skill intensive element.
    Even then we would need solution for AoE dmg. Perhaps some nice buff of Holy Nova?
    Gimme more tools. More ways to fail when not using them properly.

  11. #291
    Atonement is still going to be overpowered. Next tier you'll be able to replace most of your spirit gems for pure throughput which will greatly favor atonement. This is just a bandaid fix because they have no good solution to disc's terrible AoE healing outside of atonement.

  12. #292
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Saphiramoon View Post
    Except that mistweavers have also the option of mistweaving, not just fistweaving, and mistweaving is viable and better than fistweaving. You can heal top notch by never touching the boss.

    I invite you to try healing as a disc priest never casting an offensive spell. What spells will you use? Outside spirit shell, you will be a vanilla healer, casting spells that have close to no synergy atm. And even with spirit shell, you will still be casting the same vanilla old spells.
    So let me get this straight, atonement shouldn't be nerfed because atonement is so strong it's more powerful than your normal heals causing them to be inviable? You don't see the flaw in that statement at all? You also think that atonement shouldn't be nerfed because you don't like casting spells?

    "Ok."

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    Atonement is still going to be overpowered. Next tier you'll be able to replace most of your spirit gems for pure throughput which will greatly favor atonement. This is just a bandaid fix because they have no good solution to disc's terrible AoE healing outside of atonement.
    Next tier? I already have full int gems.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Next tier? I already have full int gems.
    Are you raiding heroic?

  15. #295
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    So let me get this straight, atonement shouldn't be nerfed because atonement is so strong it's more powerful than your normal heals causing them to be inviable? You don't see the flaw in that statement at all? You also think that atonement shouldn't be nerfed because you don't like casting spells?

    "Ok."
    You should try read full conversations. Or if you dont care/have the patience, at least not assume I meant anything other than I strictly said. Not everybody that posts in this topic discussing various mechanics is a person ready to draw blood in defense of some game aspect. Some people just like comparing things, without needing to declare "this is white, this is black and this cannot be pink".

    Fact: you can play mistweaver optimally without fistweaver - true/false?
    Fact: you cannot play disc optimally without using atonement - true/false?
    That is all I said. The rest is just your imagination.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Treseme View Post
    Just to clarify, if you're using SCK to generate chi and using it to primarily AoE heal you're doing it wrong. SCK heals are pathetic, as is the damage unless you can generate Muscle Memory from it (which requires 3 hostile targets). I fully agree MWs are capable of healing outside of their 'damage kit', but Disc Priests should be able to as well. Hence why Atonement needs to be nerfed and, if needs be, buffs to the single target heals to make them more attractive.
    While I generally agree with that, I think the problem is with nerfing atonement first, because unfortunately Blizzard has a well deserved reputation of nerfing fast and hard and taking ages with buffs. I would prefer for them to buff the alternatives to atonement up to at least sufficient level first - its not like we can use both at the same time after all so it couldn't make it worse - and only afterwards nerfing atonement and maybe if neede the atlernatives as well as to be in line with what heal output there should be. Otherwise I fear the spec might be left gutted for some time - again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 10:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Every. Single. Spell. All have the potential to be used wrong.
    [...]
    All spells have this same potential drawback because all spells can be used at the wrong time. So it's not really a drawback; simply operator (player) error.

    As far as actual drawbacks to spells? A good example would be Renew and Holy Nova. They have extremely impractical uses it most situations, though renew will get some use from Holy in certain situations. There is so little oomph to these spells that casting them is not desirable. When you are discussing drawbacks, you have to look at healing as a whole. Toolkits are used, not just tools. But when you have one (set of) spells like Atonement that fulfills so many roles, has very little repercussion, and can be used almost exclusively to complete a job then you have a spell that is overwhelmingly powerful. I'm not saying that using atonement exclusively is smart, but you can bet it will make up a great majority of your spellcasts and you really don't have to think about what you are doing.
    Again: Obviously if you can use a spell at the wrong time, thats because the spell has drawbacks. In fact all drawbacks of spells amount to this very same thing, there is a wrong time to cast the spell, a spell with no drawbacks would allways be the right choice - which is what your wording implied and which is definitively not the case. One does not equal zero, especially not if it is also supposed to not equal zero when it pleases you.

    And no Holy Nova and Renew are not examples of spells with drawbacks other than there being a wrong time(situation) to cast them. Sorry. Try again. I applaud you for not choosing spells that are 'not available' as that was the other 'drawback' that should obviously be excluded, though.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 10:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reglitch View Post
    So let me get this straight, atonement shouldn't be nerfed because atonement is so strong it's more powerful than your normal heals causing them to be inviable? You don't see the flaw in that statement at all? You also think that atonement shouldn't be nerfed because you don't like casting spells?

    "Ok."
    No, the other way around actually.
    They already nerfed your other spells so hard that they aren't viable. If they took atonement away as well we wouldn't have enough vialble spells left to be a viable spec.
    Thus, we don't want to have atonement nerfed, because we don't like standing in cities not casting spells while others play in raids.

    The problem is that while we trust Blizzard to nerf atonement really fast, we don't trust them to solve the problem of having nothing left resonably fast.
    Last edited by Noradin; 2013-04-24 at 10:12 AM.

  17. #297
    Deleted
    > Atonement HPS is higher than using your single target heals, so no.

    Which goes to show that this perceived issue lies not solely in Atonement being too good but Atonement being good and the other raft of healing spells that Disc has access to is just that, a raft. We don't have a luxury cruise liner of other options. Unless you can back the statement of Atonement being stronger than our single target heals I will have to disagree. It certainly doesn't feel that way.

    However, is Atonement the best answer to a range of situations? Yes, though a considerable contribution to this outcome is because Discipline really doesn't have that many other options with how to heal.

    > Raid comp issue, tell your RL to stop being stupid

    Hardly. These situations arise for numerous reasons. If you have a one tank assignment then this issue will certainly arise on a fight like Megaera. Of course, the solution I take is to be a pain in the ass and complicate healing further by having healers switch tanks midfight. I don't really see any other healers needing to switch tanks in order to maintain optimal healing.

    > If a Monk wants to switch from FWing to MWing he/she needs to be constantly using Renewing Mists in conjunction with the FW skills. Note: the legendary meta does not proc from FWing skills (jab, TP, BoK) so it's mana intensive, in fact it's awful for mana regen. Utterly terrible. Also note that MWs cannot AoE heal while doing their damage: Priests can switch without too much issue.

    Priests can switch without too much issue because Atonement isn't a "side" or "alternative" playstyle. Mistweavers can either Mistweave or Fistweave - Disc has no such flexibility. If you aren't using Atonement then, as numerous people have pointed out, you are effectively a vanilla healer.

    To note, Atonement doesn't AoE heal while dealing damage. SCK can AoE and deal damage.

    > PoH / PoM are good spells. SS is a good spell too.

    PoH is incredibly situation and is group bound. 5 people happen to have taken damage yet they are split between groups 1 and 2? That's five seconds of hard casting with a bucketload of overheal coming right up! PoM? Yeah, a good spell - pity it doesn't do much if the damage has already gone through - which is Disc's weak point. SS is good - still requires timing AA, IF and then a considerable number of GCDs to be used properly. SS can also be a considerable hindrance if you have popped the spell and then need to pull someone's health up (not just increase their eHP) for whatever reason.

    > Is this seriously a downside? "THE METHOD OF HEALING DOES TOO MUCH HEALING SO IT HURTS THE OTHER HEALERS" ... Er no, it means a DPS orientated healer is doing more healing than a ... healing orientated healer, and thus removing raid spots from potentially better skilled players because Atonement is stupid. It requires no thought. It's mindless and yet so effective.

    Yes it is seriously a downside. Having other healers second guess Atonement? Not good. In my own healing however, Atonement accounts for maybe 20% of my throughput on the vast majority of fights. I doubt this is negating the raid spot of better skilled players. Showing up people that are clueless? Sure.

    Atonement is mindless? I disagree. You can't simply kick back and Atonement a boss to death unless you severely over gear or out skill the encounter. As a Priest you will be using other spells and these will, most likely, contribute to a greater percentage of your healing. Mindless was RJ x 5 and WG, mindless was TBC era Chain Heal or ICC PW: Shield. Atonement is certainly not at those levels.

    Does it need toned down? If you go with what is observed at higher levels of gear, sure. Lower levels? Perhaps. Will over nerfing the ability remove the viability of Disc? Most likely. Atonement is incredibly ingrained into how Discipline works. We don't have the luxury of choice that Mist/Fistweavers do.

    Hence why Atonement needs to be nerfed and, if needs be, buffs to the single target heals to make them more attractive.
    Yes and no. If Atonement is nerfed then Disc doesn't need a buff to single target heals. It needs a buff to single target heals and a viable AoE heal.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-24 at 01:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    No, the other way around actually.
    They already nerfed your other spells so hard that they aren't viable. If they took atonement away as well we wouldn't have enough vialble spells left to be a viable spec.
    Thus, we don't want to have atonement nerfed, because we don't like standing in cities not casting spells while others play in raids.

    The problem is that while we trust Blizzard to nerf atonement really fast, we don't trust them to solve the problem of having nothing left resonably fast.
    This really is WotLK Wild Growth and Rejuvenation all over again.
    Wild Growth is too good - it gets nerfed though Druids aren't compensated.
    Other heals in their arsenal remain weak.
    Wild Growth with RJ x 5 becomes the main playstyle.
    This is deemed too good and gets nerfed through a change to set bonuses; Druids aren't compensated.
    Wild Growth with RJ x 5 remains the main playstyle as nothing rivals its HPS (this is very different from Atonement use which isn't a maximum HPS playstyle).
    This playstyle is nerfed, Druids aren't compensated.
    Druids sat out from final tier (ironically because of Disc Priest absorptions).

    It wasn't until the next expansion that this issue was actually corrected with a redesigned ToL, Lifebloom and AoE portion to Swiftmend. WG and RJ exclusive use wasn't picked up on again despite the gear level due to Druids actually having a reasonable tool set available.

    Nerfing Atonement is fine - in theory. Get the nerf wrong (is it too heavy handed to a certain quality of gear, does it make certain raid teams less viable? And so on...) and a lot of people will find themselves without a raid position.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Miatela View Post
    Unfortunately, remove Atonement (or nerf it too much) and you have a pretty pitiful excuse for healing left. The current changes are fine, but it would be wonderful if Disc actually had an AoE healing option instead of "grimace through it and Penance the boss".
    It's already painfully noticeable in fights where AoE is damage is going out and we can't use Atonement (think: Lei Shen transitions). Grimace through it is right. Divine Aegis in it's current incarnation is easily one of the most rage inducing passives in the game. BIG SPIKE DAMAGE? HERP DERP HAVE SOME ABSORBS! SURELY THAT'S WHAT YOU WANTED FROM FLASH HEAL! Ugh. Why can't they just make Divine Aegis convert our overhealing into absorbs and leave our crit heals alone? It's not rocket science to come up with ideas like this.

    Outside of Spirit Shell, Atonement, Power Word: Barrier, and Power Word: Shield, the Disc toolkit blows. It's all just shittier versions of spells Holy Priests have, and you don't exactly hear Holy Priests bragging about how amazing their Flash Heals are. None of our spells have any synergy whatsoever. Unless Blizzard is planning on going full circle and buffing PW:S, we need a new mechanic. I'd prefer something that actually makes our existing buttons worth pressing. I've suggested dozens of potential new spells and mechanics for Disc during PTR, and they've all been completely ignored, so I'm not going to bother trying to do it any longer.
    Last edited by Lothrik; 2013-04-24 at 01:05 PM.

  19. #299
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Again: Obviously if you can use a spell at the wrong time, thats because the spell has drawbacks. In fact all drawbacks of spells amount to this very same thing, there is a wrong time to cast the spell, a spell with no drawbacks would allways be the right choice - which is what your wording implied and which is definitively not the case. One does not equal zero, especially not if it is also supposed to not equal zero when it pleases you.

    And no Holy Nova and Renew are not examples of spells with drawbacks other than there being a wrong time(situation) to cast them. Sorry. Try again. I applaud you for not choosing spells that are 'not available' as that was the other 'drawback' that should obviously be excluded, though.
    Are you challenged? It can't be considered a drawback because its the very NATURE of the spells. You said it yourself: all spells have wrong times to be casted, otherwise you would use one spell all the time. But the fact that a spell can be used at the wrong time doesn't inherently mean THE SPELL is flawed, it just means it was designed for a different scenario.

    Therefore, if you choose to use Atonement when the tank needs direct heals, the original issue at hand, it is NOT Atonement's drawback, but your own fault.

    Renew and Holy Nova are both spells with drawbacks because there is almost no time you can cast renew as disc and it be worth it, and holy nova is practically worthless.

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  20. #300
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    If the inference is that the Atonement heals are so good and have no drawbacks to the point were the normal Discipline style of healing can be completely replaced with just the 3 Atonement triggering spells, then no ... I disagree. Yes, it is good, but you still need to PWS, Spirit Shell, PWB, PS, PoM, PoH and even FH occasionally to be a fully effective Disc Priest. If you limit yourself to 3 buttons you aren't helping your raid as much as you could be, and that's a drawback. You certainly aren't going to replace a DPS spot any time soon, and if you do then the drawback is the gap in DPS from what a normal DPS of the same ilvl would be doing and you.

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