Do you want a "number squish" to happen?

[Thyranne]

Blizzard pretty much has to do a number squish before the next expansion.
Otherwise we would be having 7-10mil hp and would doing 1.5-2mil dps (according to blizzard the numbers would rise about 16 times as the growth is exponential).
Having numbers so big is bad for computations that the game does all the time. Also doing for example 200k crits like now is kind of stupid seeing 5-6 numbers on your screen after every melee hit.

Also I would guess balancing PvP would be much easier when everything isnt so exponential so to speak :P

Oh god here we go.

Please, stop spreading this false information. It's easy to test it yourself.

Here is a simple Pascal code:

unit Unit1;


interface


uses
  Windows, Messages, SysUtils, Variants, Classes, Graphics, Controls, Forms,
  Dialogs, StdCtrls;


type
  TForm1 = class(TForm)
    Button1: TButton;
    procedure Button1Click(Sender: TObject);
  private
    { Private declarations }
  public
    { Public declarations }
  end;


var
  Form1: TForm1;


implementation


{$R *.dfm}


procedure TForm1.Button1Click(Sender: TObject);
var a, b, c, i : integer;
rightNow : TTime;
begin
  b := 1;
  c := 10;
  rightNow := Now;
  for i := 0 to 999999999 do
  begin
    a := i + b * c;
  end;
  showMessage('B = 1, C = 10 -----  ' + formatDateTime('hh:mm:ss.zzz', now - rightNow));
  b := 1000;
  c := 100000;
  rightNow := Now;
  for i := 0 to 999999999 do
  begin
    a := i + b * c;
  end;
  showMessage('B = 1000, C = 100000 -----  ' + formatDateTime('hh:mm:ss.zzz', now - rightNow));
end;
end.

Output:

B = 1, C = 10 ----- 00:00:00.352
B = 1000, C = 100000 ----- 00:00:00.354

2nd Output:

B = 1, C = 10 ----- 00:00:00.362
B = 1000, C = 100000 ----- 00:00:00.362

3rd output:

B = 1, C = 10 ----- 00:00:00.364
B = 1000, C = 100000 ----- 00:00:00.344

[Crashdummy]

You mean that graph that seems to be made by vaguely drawing coloured lines on a wacom tablet and hoping for the best?

The point is: That proposal wasn't met very favourably. The reason it wasn't is three-fold:
A) People didn't like losing number size (e-peen).
B) People didn't like losing the ability to solo content.
C) (In my opinion the most important reason) It wouldn't actually solve anything, like scaling issues.

Now; Blizzard might still want to crunch numbers, and I applaud it, but think about it: How likely is it that they'd use this particular method that was neither actually in development, nor very much appreciated to begin with.

I also don't really see how 'adding a number of zeros behind an arbitrary number' is useful in 'higher studies.'

Yes, the vague graph that was made to shown people the idea, which is to crunch numbers above lvl 60 an crunch more that higher the level, which would affect soloing.

The proposal wasnt met favourably because it was a bad one and would make more harm than good.

And you may not see it, but getting used to big numbers would help you if you want to do higher studies that involves them. Many of the reasons why people fail at the start of higher studies that include math is because they get overwhelmed by high numbers.

---------- Post added 2013-04-04 at 09:29 AM ----------

I still don't get where people are coming up with the idea that old content will become harder to solo. All raid content, past and present, would have to be scaled down too. It would be a pretty major process, to ensure that the content is still "working as intended", which means a group of intended level players can handle it in the scope needed. Wouldn't shock me if, during this, they scaled MC/BWL/AQ40 down to 25-man as well, instead of the old 40-man format, but that may only be for consistency reasons (they did it to AQ20 down to AQ10).

Blizzard also stated, not in that article from GC, but in other blue posts about it back before MoP launched (or even had a launch date), that they would want to maintain as much of the soloing integrity of old content as they could. So, it might take a little bit to adjust, but I doubt it will hold too much impact. If you got 400,000 health and a boss does 1100 damage (Molten Core), or you got 40000 health and the boss does 110 damage, it's still the same percentage. It just makes things more balanced internally for the system to handle, and smooth out the grade.

And hey! Wanna know what the squish would mean? Your top-end raid gear would almost 100% last you into at least Heroics, if not full raiding, of the next expansion!

Thats because you dont understand the proposal.

Yes, lvl 70 bosses wll be scaled down as much as lvl 70 characters. And lvl 80 bosses will be scaled down as much as lvl 80 characters.

But here is the part you dont understand. Lvl 70 bosses will be scaled down LESS than lvl 80 characters, which is where the part of old content being harder to solo comes by.

Its funny though, because you say that "Your top-end raid gear would almost 100% last you into at least Heroics, if not full raiding, of the next expansion" but you dont undertand how that will affect your ability to solo old raids...

According to Blizzard proposal, lvl 60 content and below wouldnt even be toned down a signle bit, that should tell you how old content would end up being harder to solo.

[Deleted]

However, I've been trying to get my RL friend to get the game back, he hasn't played since Wrath and he was watching me play. He saw my DPS and how much HP I had, and then quickly decided "that's so stupid, i'm not getting this game back". I feel that's an absurd reason to not play a game.

Him being away for so long actually saw the whole "carrot and the stick" trick that blizzard (and not only blizzard ofc) is using to keep their customers on the hook.
As they say, 1 picture=1000words. He saw one "tiny detail" and understood where he could be heading at (again). I like your friend.

Personally, I think a number squish would make people feel weaker and make more people angry than happy. I don't see any problems with big numbers, and it's nice to feel so much stronger than I was the previous expansion(s). The gear and strength grind is what keeps me going, much like it does in games like D3.

How do you feel about it?

Every change with "negative energy" will make people angry. In fact every change whatsoever will make some of us angry, cause we re creatures of habbit.

When i see that i can one shot my tank warrior in tier 11 gear now in heroic dungeons gear makes me feel that its absurd and stupid.

They are pumbing the numbers way too high, and they are funneling us with gear at an ever increasing pace.
All games are like that, but when it gets out of hand you cant help not thinking that the end draws near. One feels that our attention need to stay in the actual game less and into how awesome our toons are more. Whats wrong with the actual game and i need distructions though? Can't help not thinking about it.

[meheez]

Guys guys...Numbers are just tools. It's the results that matter.

[Shepherd57]

Maybe this is a feature that you have to turn on, but didn't blizzard have the ability to abbreviate large numbers in MOP beta so when you crit for 106,000 the number on the screen was 106k. I believe this method would be best going foward. The only time I see them doing a number crunch is once the have a scaling up/down feature in all raids (old and new) as well as tuning the old 40man content down to 10/25.

[Deleted]

I imagine if blizzard was to go through with a number squish, they would find a way to make it affect everything globally. Otherwise a lot of content wouldn't be possible to do. Either way, I dont care if they do or not. we would still be doing the same percentiles of damage.

No, the way they stated they'd go about it you could forget about soloing anything.

[Crym]

Instead of 200000 damage, you will have done 200k. At that point you may as well just remove the k and get back to more sane numbers that human minds can comprehend at the first glance.

I can see it now. My level 10 warrior doing 0.1 damage a hit. Or perhaps you meant re-balancing the entire game so that low levels start out doing 2-3 damage a hit and damage is only increased by roughly 2 points per level gained. In either case, I don't think it would go over as well as you think it would.

The reason the numbers are inflated is because we have 90 levels, and significantly more "levels" once you count the effects of gear, that a character can be at. Even reducing damage by a magnitude of 10 so low levels start out doing a couple damage a hit the numbers would be fairly large at max level.

The only way they could bring the numbers down at all is make levels and gear significantly less meaningful, which would require them to practically recreate the entire game by re-balancing EVERYTHING.

[thumbwarriordx]

Still I see loads of discussion in this thread about what will happen to soloing, without much attention to what has already happened to player level disparity under the current paradigm.

a level 60, a level 70, a level 80 are nothing to a level 90. Nothing at all, it would take a swarm of lowbies to kill a 90 and you'd better hope he doesn't have an AOE nuke.
under a linearized stat crunch, lower level players would at least get to participate in their being killed, most likely by trying to run away, survive and bait their assailant into pulling guards.
Y'know, the way world PVP is supposed to work. Not just the very boring "I shoot; you dead." It's boring for all involved, except for the sadist who just gets off on wasting other people's time, that's the guy you don't want to encourage MUCH MORE than everyone else, and that's what the current system does.

[wooootles]

Still I see loads of discussion in this thread about what will happen to soloing, without much attention to what has already happened to player level disparity under the current paradigm.

a level 60, a level 70, a level 80 are nothing to a level 90. Nothing at all, it would take a swarm of lowbies to kill a 90 and you'd better hope he doesn't have an AOE nuke.
under a linearized stat crunch, lower level players would at least get to participate in their being killed, most likely by trying to run away, survive and bait their assailant into pulling guards.
Y'know, the way world PVP is supposed to work. Not just the very boring "I shoot; you dead." It's boring for all involved, except for the sadist who just gets off on wasting other people's time, that's the guy you don't want to encourage MUCH MORE than everyone else, and that's what the current system does.

A level 80 with a 400-ilvl will screw up a normal 90, just want to bring that up

[NatePsy]

No, I like being able to solo old raids with ease, I don't know how they can still make it possible for to continue to do so if a number squish were to happen. Besides I like feeling like I'm sort of a mini-boss.

[Crym]

under a linearized stat crunch, lower level players would at least get to participate in their being killed, most likely by trying to run away, survive and bait their assailant into pulling guards.

For a level 60 to have a chance of surviving a level 90 the damage per level would have to increase by less than a percent in a linear growth system (resulting in roughly a 30% damage advantage, which is still pretty huge). If you want to actually add abilities at various levels (instead of everyone having all abilities at level 1) balancing for that gets even more absurd, because a level 90's tool-kit is so much more expansive meaning their toughness, enemy control, and damage options would all be much higher (making it anything but a "fair fight" even if the damage increase per level was entirely marginalized). Not to mention with more damage options comes more damage in a lot of cases, so to get it within that 1% per level for a level where a new damage ability is granted you'd have to actually reduce damage across the board to compensate for the new ability when someone levels (that would go over well).

The ONLY place a more linear system would help is for the first few levels between expansions. For instance: 67-68 is a huge jump in strength in the current system but wouldn't be if growth were more linear (because wrath gear is available at 68 and is so much better than BC gear). However, while it's a huge jump versus a linear progression it's not like a level 67 has NO chance against a 68 anyway.

Basically, if you want fair and honest PvP you do battlegrounds. That has always been the only way to ensure that team numbers and levels are within any tolerance, it will always be the only way the ensure that in a game designed around character growth and cooperative play. Changing damage numbers around would fix none of the real reason world PvP is unfair, and trying to make world PvP meaningful for anything but ganking and the rare evenly matched teams facing off until one side gets enough backup would take a ton of work and destroy any semblance of noticable character progression while leveling.

[Grogo]

The numbers have become fucking ridiculous, the numbers on gear as well. This is long over due. It needs to be done and the sooner the better.

[thumbwarriordx]

For a level 60 to have a chance of surviving a level 90. . .

A level 60 doesn't need a chance against a level 90. A level 60 should have a chance against a 70, at least of escape. A level 60 should be able to take multiple hits, so that a level 90 attacking recklessly can be LoS'd after 1 attack, then gets harassed by guards.
It's not about survival in that you get to survive, it's about how long you can survive, and what you can do in the hopes that you can somehow lead the bastard into a trap or at least be a fraction as inconvenient to them as they are to you.

There should be less killing with impunity in the middle of places like Thrallmar, where there are loads of buildings, plenty of opportunity for shelter, but none of it matters because you just die before you can react in any fashion, you can't even bubble and hearth.

Geared max level characters should absolutely annihilate anything lower level, but this happens every time you jump to the next expansion's content. Stack up 3-4 of these big, exponential jumps and it's no wonder anyone level 1-60 can't even look at anyone higher level without dying instantly. Players at max level are getting the max level boost 5 times.

As it is, Burning Crusade is such old, familiar and visually dated content that I don't want to be there, add a 90 rogue fucking with my shit and I'll do nothing but battlegrounds until I can hit up Northrend.

Old content's stat inflation should just be compressed down so that you actually have a shot at killing the guy who's been in cataclysm content 15 minutes longer than you and has 3 more quest items than you do.

When you get gear, you think: "Yeah that's pretty good." When you know what's coming in Cata and Pandaria you just think "This peasant gear will serve me until I'm allowed into the real part of this game."

[Crym]

Geared max level characters should absolutely annihilate anything lower level, but this happens every time you jump to the next expansion's content.

See, this is where I lose you. You're saying 10 levels shouldn't make that big of a difference, but every time you're talking about a really significant difference you're talking about players being multiple expansion apart (meaning they're also factors of ten levels higher than the other player and you yourself say you shouldn't stand a chance).

I understand that there's a jump from 57-58, 67-68, 77-78, and 84-85. However, these gaps aren't so large that you can't survive a single hit unless someone also dramatically outgears you (beyond the difference between green gear one expansion and green in the next) and you still have a fighting chance (especially if you only hope to escape).

I agree that 90s ganking level 60 players entering outland is lame. I think those people are the lowest form of player. However, I also don't play on a PvP server, because PvP that happens when two people are specifically choosing to compete is ALWAYS more competitive than anything that happens on a PvP server.

[Deleted]

You would still get stronger, it's all an illusion...I'm pretty sure if they reduce the numbers they will adjust the boss stats for old raids aswell so it wouldn't affect soloing or anything, I mean if they didn't do it it would make it impossible for say a raid of level 70s to do a level 70 raid, I know no one does old raids with people of the appropriate level but it would be stupid nonetheless so why not just reduce stats for all lower level bosses and mobs? Am I missing something here?

[Silarynn]

Not at all

[Crym]

You would still get stronger, it's all an illusion...I'm pretty sure if they reduce the numbers they will adjust the boss stats for old raids aswell so it wouldn't affect soloing or anything, I mean if they didn't do it it would make it impossible for say a raid of level 70s to do a level 70 raid, I know no one does old raids with people of the appropriate level but it would be stupid nonetheless so why not just reduce stats for all lower level bosses and mobs? Am I missing something here?

What you're saying is accurate. They would have to reduce the damage and health of all the enemies in the game and retune it all around new numbers. That said, it's not like there's a dial on the side of their servers where they can just "turn the damage and health down". This would be a huge undertaking that would result in a lot of wasted development time.

My question is "for what?" There are people arguing about high level griefing. There are easier ways of dealing with that specifically (SWTOR bolstering system would likely be a good start or even the level reducing system GW2 has in place for people going back and doing older zones). People are arguing that the numbers are becoming meaningless. It might be nice to be able to turn on rounding to the nearest thousand or so for visual preference, but that's a way easier solution than retuning everything.

The arguments that "I hate this idea because I like big numbers" is only rivaled in silliness by the arguments for a "number crunch". Numbers are only meaningful when in context. Completely reworking every enemy in the game to ensure that they're all the intended difficulty just so your health bar number and damage values can look different on the screen (but act functionally similar) is crazy.

[Deleted]

What you're saying is accurate. They would have to reduce the damage and health of all the enemies in the game and retune it all around new numbers. That said, it's not like there's a dial on the side of their servers where they can just "turn the damage and health down". This would be a huge undertaking that would result in a lot of wasted development time.

I do think that the numbers are getting out of hand and wouldn't mind a ''number crunch'' but in the end I don't really care either way, wasn't saying there MUST be a number crunch, just that I don't get people saying they will become weaker and won't be able to solo old raids, that's all.

[Crym]

I do think that the numbers are getting out of hand and wouldn't mind a ''number crunch'' but in the end I don't really care either way, wasn't saying there MUST be a number crunch, just that I don't get people saying they will become weaker and won't be able to solo old raids, that's all.

Yeah, the "smaller numbers mean we wouldn't be able to do anything" is just as silly as the "this has to happen" arguments. If they were going to retune the whole game they'd either redesign it while they were in there to maybe get more activity (like ZA and ZG), retune the numbers, or just remove some of it outright to avoid having to do the work.

[thumbwarriordx]

There's a difference between not being able to kill someone and not being able to survive someone's halfassed burst just because the numbers are so much in their favor.
The gear compression proposed would have toned down the difference between two expansions massively and reduced the degree to which anyone below level 60 is just a critter to be thunderclapped to death by max level characters.

Something really could be done about how segregated different level brackets feel.