[MW] Haste 27.76% worth it?

[Deleted]

This would imply 1% haste makes you cast 1% faster, not the case.

Ignoring the fact that you're just nitpicking his wording: Wut? It sure does.
To "cast 100% faster" doesn't mean instant casts. Just because you drive 100% faster (meaning twice as fast) doesn't mean you suddenly teleport.
"Cast 100% faster" is obviously the same as "casting twice as fast", which in turn allows you to cast twice the amount of heals in the same time... it's just different wording.

This would also imply 100% haste makes you cast 100% faster, obviously still not the case.

That's exactly what it does? 100% haste makes you cast 100% faster (you can get twice the amount of spells compared to the 0% haste timeframe)

[Deleted]

Not arguing semantics, his wording made it sound like (to me) he thought a 1% increase in haste would result in 99% of the base cast time. Which is a common (and flawed) interpretation of what haste actually does.

[Totaltotemic]

Not arguing semantics, his wording made it sound like (to me) he thought a 1% increase in haste would result in 99% of the base cast time. Which is a common (and flawed) interpretation of what haste actually does.

Oh come on, we've done this far too many times in the past few months to make baseless assumptions that I have no idea what the stat even does. It always comes down to you not acknowledging differences in mana usage, claiming that as long as you "still have enough mana", having less mana is irrelevant. If going for full haste results in "still having enough mana" than when you had crit, then you were running too much Spirit. That's player error, not a mathematical argument for haste.

[Deleted]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I read something that was worded ambiguously and still wasn't clarified in your response so I assumed the worst. I should have known better. xoxo.

To clarify my gearing, I keep enough spirit to make the worst combination in terms of MP5 last at least 9 minutes (Chi Brew + Chi Burst) in a critical strike build. (I never unglyph Mana Tea during progression). The change back to ZS+Ascension is easily enough to account for the increased consumption at the cost of next to no throughput in the scenarios I use a haste build in.

[Astraios]

I'd like to say two things: One, why are there so many personal attacks going on here? This is to help others [and ourselves, ultimately], not to make one of us look better. Two: Why did no one comment on what I said? I thought I was pretty rational about it. Which, to reiterate: there is no "100% correct" answer.

Different fights, different raid comps, emphasis on different healing cores, will all make different stats stronger, this is esp. the case for healers. As well playstyle plays a large part in determining individual stat weights. As such, I feel any recommendations should be prefaced with that, then bring up the point that most stats (mastery might as well be a non-stat lets be real) are similar in throughput if played to their strengths. What that leaves us with, are extremely loose recommendations or guidelines. So to say, each has their benefits.

Crit:
Bursts harder (AoE and Tank w/ Healing sphere)
Easier to Line up TFT (larger window than a say "haste stack" build)
More Efficient

Haste:
Stronger general tank healing (Ala SoM/EnvM)
Faster Chi Gen (the weaker the rest of your healers, the more important this becomes)
Highest Theoretical HPS with SCK as generator, however it's basically unsustainable. Might be of use in this role sometime in the future, but not really this tier. (I can fill the 20s of globals with powerful spells for the entire megaera raid dmg phases as a crit build. YMMV)

In almost all cases, your own skill as a player will likely have more of an influence over your healing (as well as RNG) than deciding between haste/crit. Personally, I believe that the two should be balanced and have seen the best results with that.

[Nomjeremy]

Hey
Just wanted to tell your guys thanks. Thanks for such an awesome place to come read up on our class. I've robbed, borrowed and stole many of your thoughts and it's made me a better player.

Thanks again for all you do! Keep doing it!
Nom

[WskyDK]

Why did no one comment on what I said? I thought I was pretty rational about it. Which, to reiterate: there is no "100% correct" answer.

I know I didn't comment on it, because you were completely correct. Not much needed to be added. I can only assume it was the same for others.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Crit:
Bursts harder (AoE and Tank w/ Healing sphere)
Easier to Line up TFT (larger window than a say "haste stack" build)
More Efficient

just asking, are you talking about a pure crit build, or the traditional hastecaps > crit > haste build?
because the difference in ReM duration at the breakpoints is quite small (so the "TFT line up" doesn really apply to a build at a breakpoint)
16.66%: 18.85sec
27.77%: 18.78sec
38.88%: 18.72sec
50%: 18.67sec

[nowish]

Different fights, different raid comps, emphasis on different healing cores, will all make different stats stronger, this is esp. the case for healers. As well playstyle plays a large part in determining individual stat weights. As such, I feel any recommendations should be prefaced with that, then bring up the point that most stats (mastery might as well be a non-stat lets be real) are similar in throughput if played to their strengths. What that leaves us with, are extremely loose recommendations or guidelines. So to say, each has their benefits.

In almost all cases, your own skill as a player will likely have more of an influence over your healing (as well as RNG) than deciding between haste/crit. Personally, I believe that the two should be balanced and have seen the best results with that.

Erm... I believe I just said the exact same thing in my post before? Echo echo, using abit more wording but it's basically the exact same. I can repeat it again. Playing on a low level? you will most likely not utilize either orientation properly, thus making it pretty useless to try and use any of the "suggestions" coming your way.
Playing on a high level? you should be able to figure out what's best for your raid comp, your playstyle, by yourself.
Dps math is simple, not many different ways you can play a certain specc. Healing on the other hand is different (with exceptions) for every attempt you make as well as what encounter is in question (many unpredictable factors going on).

Useless discussion is useless, in the end the math need to be done indivudually by yourself to get any proper values, and even then it's pretty much useless knowledge. Less math more, actual playing. Simulations are just that, simulations. They are never and will never represent How you as an idividual will be playing your character.

[Astraios]

just asking, are you talking about a pure crit build, or the traditional hastecaps > crit > haste build?
because the difference in ReM duration at the breakpoints is quite small (so the "TFT line up" doesn really apply to a build at a breakpoint)
16.66%: 18.85sec
27.77%: 18.78sec
38.88%: 18.72sec
50%: 18.67sec

I mean using crit will leave you at a breakpoint and using haste will leave you inbetween breakpoints unless you're using haste as "stacking haste to high breakpoint then dump crit" except I haven't heard people talking about that.

@nowish
I don't believe that following either suggestion is "useless". Going mastery because you feel like it, is EXTREMELY sub-optimal. But choosing between haste/crit IS pretty equal. And people at a high level still discuss things with others, you know...why else do you think I'm here? I agree that 'simulating healing' is tough, but it still gives important information which we can apply to healing.

[Clozer]

Anyone got the haste breakpoints from soothing mist?

[Deleted]

There are none

[Totaltotemic]

@nowish
I don't believe that following either suggestion is "useless". Going mastery because you feel like it, is EXTREMELY sub-optimal. But choosing between haste/crit IS pretty equal. And people at a high level still discuss things with others, you know...why else do you think I'm here? I agree that 'simulating healing' is tough, but it still gives important information which we can apply to healing.

To add to that (like the discussion going on in the "too much spirit?" thread), stacking Spirit without question is also a bad idea.

Some people may not be aware, but those of us that like to argue the mathematical differences aren't really likely to say "well, just do what you want because you're not good enough to use it anyways" because we all generally think of ourselves as good enough for these seemingly minute differences to matter. If you want to tell yourself that it's irrelevant what you choose, you should probably not be on a forum that is meant for discussion, because there's no discussion involved in a "do whatever you want" play style.

Specifically on topic though, even if haste and crit are "equal" in terms of what you get out of them (even if mathematically equal your benefits still manifest in different ways), there is still a right way to do each and a wrong way. For example, if you're going heavy crit, you probably don't need 13k Spirit and two mana trinkets at the same time. To use an opposing example, and one of the things we're discussing, Reglitch (and a few others) contest that a "haste build", if better that crit, means ignoring the ReM breakpoints and stacking pure haste; myself (and a few others) say that if haste is better, you should still only build for it by going to the breakpoints. The point is that we're trying to pin down the optimal haste build, the optimal crit build, and then comparing the two, but it's difficult when we can't even agree on what "optimal" is for either. There's still work to be done here, we are by no means at a consensus that they are equal or that the decision doesn't matter.

[nowish]

I mean using crit will leave you at a breakpoint and using haste will leave you inbetween breakpoints unless you're using haste as "stacking haste to high breakpoint then dump crit" except I haven't heard people talking about that.

@nowish
I don't believe that following either suggestion is "useless". Going mastery because you feel like it, is EXTREMELY sub-optimal. But choosing between haste/crit IS pretty equal. And people at a high level still discuss things with others, you know...why else do you think I'm here? I agree that 'simulating healing' is tough, but it still gives important information which we can apply to healing.

You will , most likely, see no difference between a mastery, haste, spirit and a crit build if you are not playing properly, so it doesn't matter what's supposed to be the "best". You can dicuss how much u want, but as I said previously, all raid teams look differently, different healer setup, different skill in the healing team etc. So unless you take in the entire healing team. I don't see a huge point in discussing this unless it's to waste some time. I understand discussions regarding patch notes and changes to come which you currently can't really try out. But trying to use math and calculate a set scenario for how a fight will be, and where u use everything perfectly and not taking into account other people in the equation just seems dumb to me, when you in the end just need to simply try it out in game if it works for you or not.

For example. "should I go for the next tick of ReM or not?", "what's the best spirit rating to have", "crit or haste" etc. It all ends up to how your comp is. If you
1. Next tick of ReM? the only fight I really know an extra tick will not go ot waste on, is garalon due to the constant aoe dmg (unless you would roll with lika 5 disc priest + 1 monk healing team for w/e reason). Other than that u really need to know how the healers in your team play. If they have consistant healing or if they simply wait until alot of dmg is going on, poping some cds and all bursting up.

2. What spirit to get? have a roster with many druids and priests for instance, u could probably go with less spirit since u get extra mana from there. Tho somteimes a druid can't get to you due to you outranging him/her and simply have to prolong getting an innervate for instance. Maybe someone dies and they need to be fed some innervates. That's something u need to consider as well.

3. Crit / Haste ? same thing as I wrote above. If you got a healing team that play and got smooth consistant healing but no real burst healing. Crit would probably be better. If you got alot of burst healing classes, haste will most likely be better unless it's a boss which only do slow hard hitting dmg, for instance like the explosions on empress.


Another thing to take into consideration:
People who got the math all figured out, doesn't necessarily have the required skill to execute it properly. And it works the otherway around. People who are skilled enough to execute and anticipating unexpected things properly in the right way with their available tools, are most likely not using alot of other people's theories and calculations.

I am in no way trying to tell people how to play the game at all. I know that alot of people like doing theorycrafting , doing calculations trying to max their chars any way possible with the available tools they got. Im just saying, that I (MY OPINION) believe that some people are focusing abit too much on the numbers and getting sidetracked to what really matters when it comes down to someone's performance.

I might be wrong on this one. But to my knowledge, alot of the really good players don't do alot of number crunching to the extend that the majority of people on these forums are. And I believe there is a reason to why alot of the really really clever guys who do alot of (what I might think is abit too much) in depth number crunching, might not play on a more than average level. You can try to prepare the best you can on paper. But in the end it all comes down to how well you manage to execute it.

TL; DR excessive numbercrunching seems to be a waste of time to me, I believe the execution is the most important thing rather than the preparation and things leading up to the performance (if that makes any sense at all).

Why am I replying to threads and posts like these you might ask when I think it's a waste? Well to simply waste some time and because I love sharing my opinion as well as arguing in favor of said opinion. Maybe Im not that into numbercrunching , so I might not get it. But when I get a notion that something might work better with a different approach. I normally go in-game to try it out, not with excessive numbercrunching.

Thanks for reading and I believe alot of people will dislike me even more after this, tho I hope I didn't offend anyone or word myself in a stupid way (I usually do), that was not my intention. I just believe math in this regard is overcomplicating something that's not complicated at all.

-Nowish and out

---------- Post added 2013-04-06 at 04:49 PM ----------

To add to that (like the discussion going on in the "too much spirit?" thread), stacking Spirit without question is also a bad idea.

Some people may not be aware, but those of us that like to argue the mathematical differences aren't really likely to say "well, just do what you want because you're not good enough to use it anyways" because we all generally think of ourselves as good enough for these seemingly minute differences to matter. If you want to tell yourself that it's irrelevant what you choose, you should probably not be on a forum that is meant for discussion, because there's no discussion involved in a "do whatever you want" play style.

Specifically on topic though, even if haste and crit are "equal" in terms of what you get out of them (even if mathematically equal your benefits still manifest in different ways), there is still a right way to do each and a wrong way. For example, if you're going heavy crit, you probably don't need 13k Spirit and two mana trinkets at the same time. To use an opposing example, and one of the things we're discussing, Reglitch (and a few others) contest that a "haste build", if better that crit, means ignoring the ReM breakpoints and stacking pure haste; myself (and a few others) say that if haste is better, you should still only build for it by going to the breakpoints. The point is that we're trying to pin down the optimal haste build, the optimal crit build, and then comparing the two, but it's difficult when we can't even agree on what "optimal" is for either. There's still work to be done here, we are by no means at a consensus that they are equal or that the decision doesn't matter.

Forums are here to allow people to dicuss things , sure, but every day a new thread pops up, and it all comes down to the same things over and over. Try it out in the game and then show a proper source. Instead of trying to "if" it all the time and trying to conclude something solely based on mathematics. The sources may differ as well. since, as I've said numerious times, it all comes down to how the player play as well as the team he / she plays with. Some people might as well just prefer haste > crit , some really do feel crit > haste. Their playstyle might differ from yours, never ending circle will surround this issue and I don't really think it's getting anywhere. People are not robots, you won't have 10 people of equal skill doing the exact same things in every scenario.

[Totaltotemic]

-snip-

Ugh, everything in this post has such a defeatist point of view. This isn't an FPS, the skill ceiling is pretty low in terms of what buttons you should be pressing and when. It may be news to you, but RPGs are built on numbers. At some point, "playing better" is almost impossible, but gaining a numerical advantage is. That's the whole philosophy surrounding the idea of "gearing up." To discount all theorycrafting because you think skill will simply win out is a naïve point of view. You don't see DPS being told to "do whatever you think works best" because numerical advantages exist. The same applies to healing, give me any situation with ALL of the details (cooldowns, raid positioning, raid health levels, timers on boss abilities, gear, skill of players in the raid etc) and with enough time to analyze we can find out what the right action in that instant is. Skill is merely the ability to execute the correct action without needing time to analyze and doing so correctly.

You will , most likely, see no difference between a mastery, haste, spirit and a crit build if you are not playing properly, so it doesn't matter what's supposed to be the "best"

The difference between the person that gears for 10k mastery and has 0 Spirit, crit, or haste and one that gears with an ounce of intelligence will be ridiculously huge even at a basic "press ReM on cooldown and faceroll" level. You do not need to be a Blood Legion player for theorycrafting to make a 20+% difference in everything you do, saying otherwise isn't just naïve, it's flat out wrong.

[fireattack]

Fact is, that for the amount of crit rating on gear required to get 1% crit, we can get 2.22% haste instead

This is exactly what angrie was misreading in his "math".

[Luqt]

It may be news to you, but RPGs are built on numbers. At some point, "playing better" is almost impossible, but gaining a numerical advantage is. That's the whole philosophy surrounding the idea of "gearing up." To discount all theorycrafting because you think skill will simply win out is a naïve point of view. You don't see DPS being told to "do whatever you think works best" because numerical advantages exist. The same applies to healing, give me any situation with ALL of the details (cooldowns, raid positioning, raid health levels, timers on boss abilities, gear, skill of players in the raid etc) and with enough time to analyze we can find out what the right action in that instant is. Skill is merely the ability to execute the correct action without needing time to analyze and doing so correctly.

I liked this response, because it's probably the first in this thread to acknowledge the existence of variables in a raid encounter aside from "skill" and explaining that there is always a way of gearing/playing which will yield better numbers but which cannot be determined without knowing the exact specifications or nature of the encounter. Thus, we need to find an overall scheme i.e. gearing which can accommodate most if not all situations whilst providing good results. Nobody mentioned anything new about crit vs haste stacking as an example, both gearing strategies have their pros and cons which have also been mentioned but actually that wasn't the main point of the thread. They're related, but there's a difference between stacking a stat and simply getting enough of it to reach the succeeding breakpoint.

The original poster recognizes that getting crit on his gear is in general the more reliable stat priority, however he asked if losing the amount of stats provided on the post would be compensated by the haste gained to reach the 12th breakpoint on ReM at 27.76%, in his case I would say it is viable because he has the 2 set and not much to lose.

Though it also goes down to a more interesting question - when is it worth going up a haste breakpoint? I have been messing around a bit with Reglitch and Valen's spreadsheets (both seem very reliable or at least equal) with stats from BiS items and personally, I don't think reaching the 13th ReM breakpoint at 38.87% is feasible contrary to what some users mentioned, even in T15 BiS gear though I might be mistaken but you end up losing a fair amount of crit and intellect for it (1k + stats from each).

[nowish]

I liked this response, because it's probably the first in this thread to acknowledge the existence of variables in a raid encounter aside from "skill" and explaining that there is always a way of gearing/playing which will yield better numbers but which cannot be determined without knowing the exact specifications or nature of the encounter. Thus, we need to find an overall scheme i.e. gearing which can accommodate most if not all situations whilst providing good results. Nobody mentioned anything new about crit vs haste stacking as an example, both gearing strategies have their pros and cons which have also been mentioned but actually that wasn't the main point of the thread. They're related, but there's a difference between stacking a stat and simply getting enough of it to reach the succeeding breakpoint.

The original poster recognizes that getting crit on his gear is in general the more reliable stat priority, however he asked if losing the amount of stats provided on the post would be compensated by the haste gained to reach the 12th breakpoint on ReM at 27.76%, in his case I would say it is viable because he has the 2 set and not much to lose.

Though it also goes down to a more interesting question - when is it worth going up a haste breakpoint? I have been messing around a bit with Reglitch and Valen's spreadsheets (both seem very reliable or at least equal) with stats from BiS items and personally, I don't think reaching the 13th ReM breakpoint at 38.87% is feasible contrary to what some users mentioned, even in T15 BiS gear though I might be mistaken but you end up losing a fair amount of crit and intellect for it (1k + stats from each).

I never ever said that you should exclude all math and numbercrunching now did I. I only said that you can only do so much in numbers but the majority still comes down to how the encounter plays out, which you in most cases are unable to predict.

Another thing that I might have been to vague about. Ofc it matters if u have 0 spirit and only have crit in everything. My point was more that regardless if u reforge everything to crit for instance, u will still have other stats on your gear. It's not like you terminate everything else once u decide to go 1 stat. My point was that the healing increasae between for instance an 11th or 12th tick with ReM or the extra crit you would get from that is nothing huge unless you know exactly how to play and the encounter allows it, as well as your fellow healers not sniping it. I never ever ever said that you can just walk into this game wihtout proper gearing to manage your job. What I did say is that indepth minor tweaks will, in most cases, not make a difference. And I rather use my in-game sources to determine what would be a suitable build than beeing offline numbercrunching (this was my entire point).

I don't keep track atm but op asked about the 12th breakpoint right? The only one who can determine if it's valid or not is stil HIM. As I have said numerous times, we do not know his healing setup nor the capability of his healers. If his ReM's will go to waste like 70% of the uptime, then it's obviously not worth it now is it. You still need to consider that it's not a singleplayer game, and u need to account for the surroundings.

If skill doesn't matter that much, then how come the major guilds kill bosses way more undergeared than the average player? Because they utilize their tools to the max as well as putting alot of time into it. They go in, do a few pull and figure out how to use their shit properly and gg. There is a limitation to what you can do with a pen and a paper. And as I mentioned as well. Numbercrunching benefit dps way more than healers due to their differences in their roles. Dps usually have a set rotaion which they follow, which u can't do as a healer as you can't (in most cases) predict who will take dmg. For instance, u know that surging mist is a mana costly spell, but it's our only burst heal so u might need to spam it abit if a target drops low. I have never seen people taking that into consideration when they are starting to calculate how long u can survive with your mana until you are oom for instance and such.

I stand by my point that execution is what's seals the deal, not excessive numbercrunching. You are not playing a simulation.

[Chuupag]

The world first guilds spend what...40 or more hours a week during progression and using really wonky strats to kill the bosses. Execution is a part of that...but blind RNG luck is more important with that amount of attempts. There will be large differences in a full crit, full haste, breakpoint du jour -> crit build, even with just basic play like Total was saying. Stop acting like there isn't. Play style matters yes...but beyond play style stats matter.

[Totaltotemic]

Ofc it matters if u have 0 spirit and only have crit in everything

You will , most likely, see no difference between a mastery, haste, spirit and a crit build if you are not playing properly, so it doesn't matter what's supposed to be the "best".

Just wanted to point that out before declaring this tangent officially over. Going into a thread asking a specific theorycrafting question and saying "LOL DOESN'T MATTER UNLESS UR GOOD" really only serves to derail the thread. The rest of us all know the value in the numbers, so this is the last time in this thread that I'll mention it.