Pve Raiding

[Firebert]

Quote A) You state using abilities for Survivability purposes, not damage purposes, but state elsewhere that tanks shouldn't have to do any DPS. You also state that points toward helping said mitigation abilities would be better spent on avoidance. Thus, you counter yourself.

No, I don't. Mitigation and aviodance move towards the same goal.

Quote B) You state that you didn't use a mechanic that Blizzard designed for use. That's the same as not using mitigation abilities or stats.

I was the absorption tank. The OT didn't use the damage mechanic.

Quote C) You state that you spread diseases (which is through dps abilities) and that you attacked the boss with your abilities despite him often ignoring the absorption, your said mitigation.

The reason the diseases were spread was from a Blood Boil proc. This makes Blood Boil free, but still grants the 10RP from spending a rune (it spends it and then instantly refunds it). This extra RP was then spent on an RP that accelerates the next DS.

Quote D) You say that you use abilities for mitigation and I quote your earlier comment (and even bring up the AMR builds for DK include an Avoidance build, which each plate tank has available and you implied was the proper build for tanks) and then use you as an example to state that the other builds are popular and that mitigation is also viable.

The only proper build for tanks is the avoidance one. The others will be modified soon enough: see Prot Paladins stacking Haste so hard they nerfed the passive that made Haste stacking so popular.

Quote E) You falsely state that when an ability is used, the damage is not guaranteed but the mitigation is, which, since the original topic is warriors, I clarify that this is false and that you earlier claimed this was false as well.

I never said that Death Knights are Warriors.

Anything else?

[Deleted]

I think it's fairly obvious he's either deliberately trolling or willfully ignorant, should probably stop feeding him.

[Recke]

I don't know how many times I'm going to have to link you YOUR OWN WORDS to get you to realize you are incorrect.

No, I don't. Mitigation and aviodance move towards the same goal.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Raiding/page3
You state that mitigation (aka, SS/Revenge to have rage for Shield Barrier/Block) is a stupid mistake that they should instead "build Sunders" to gain threat and they should of geared properly into avoidance. By stating this, you clearly indicate that this is not the same goal.

I was the absorption tank. The OT didn't use the damage mechanic.

You both are tanks. The mechanics are there for you. You as tanks. Not you as some random guy on the internet who is never at fault and always 100% right.

The reason the diseases were spread was from a Blood Boil proc. This makes Blood Boil free, but still grants the 10RP from spending a rune (it spends it and then instantly refunds it). This extra RP was then spent on an RP that accelerates the next DS.

Your Blood spec has Runic Corruption. Runic Strike has a 45% chance at increasing Rune Generation. Using Blood Boil and Runic Strike were dps abilities that offer no mitigation in of themselves. They help with mitigation via Death Strike, much like Shield Slam and Revenge increase Rage so you can use your mitigation abilities as a warrior, but apparently that is not the right answer and you should of just taunted to hold agro and not used any abilities except maybe Death Strike when available. Another thing to note is that you put diseases up in the first place. Diseases are a dps increase and hold no damage reduction that shouldn't of already been on the boss (you weren't the only tank). You had no reason to put diseases. Also, Blood Boil requires diseases already on a target to spread, and you can't hit the boss from the Shadow Realm, so you put diseases up on something to dps and then spread it for damage.

The only proper build for tanks is the avoidance one. The others will be modified soon enough: see Prot Paladins stacking Haste so hard they nerfed the passive that made Haste stacking so popular.

You aren't using the avoidance one for Blood DK, so you aren't proper tanking. How can you guarantee that the others will be modified? In the last post, I linked to the forums where a Dev actually commented on Blizzard likes how MoP warrior tanking is because of the options available. Hit/Expertise provide the best mitigation for warriors (the avoidance only states it's better if you don't use Shield Barrier, one of two available mitigation abilities). Thus, the avoidance one is not the proper build. Also, Prot Paladin haste stacking is still the widely accepted Prot Paladin spec due to the "nerfs" not being enough to make it better to not stack haste (outside of Stamina for magic, which goes for most classes). So, this again is wrong.

I never said that Death Knights are Warriors.

Wow, really?

Tanks are supposed to tank, not DPS. Taking huge amounts of non-tanking stats just so your DPS can slack isn't the best way to gear, TBH.

You never said Death Knights either. You said tanks. All tanks.

So you say they only want Tanks pushing Heroic mode raiding to care about DPS.

They already do that and that's a tiny population of the raiding community, and GC just says tanks, so I'm going to assume he means all of them.

Anything else?

1) I'm curious what you are even arguing, outside of just how wrong you have been.
2)

Obviously he failed to define his statement, then.

[Darkfriend]

Attacking me instead of the argument, eh? I think I know who's won this argument.

Well it sure as hell isn't you.

[Firebert]

You state that mitigation (aka, SS/Revenge to have rage for Shield Barrier/Block) is a stupid mistake that they should instead "build Sunders" to gain threat and they should of geared properly into avoidance. By stating this, you clearly indicate that this is not the same goal.

No. The goal is mitigation or avoidance, not DPS. Please stop trying to twist my words, I've been very clear from the beginning.

Using Blood Boil and Runic Strike were dps abilities that offer no mitigation in of themselves.

They hasten DS, so, they offer a percentage multiplier on mitigation.

Another thing to note is that you put diseases up in the first place. Diseases are a dps increase and hold no damage reduction that shouldn't of already been on the boss (you weren't the only tank). You had no reason to put diseases.

Weakened Blows from Plague Strike and Chilblains from Icy Touch says no.

Also, Blood Boil requires diseases already on a target to spread, and you can't hit the boss from the Shadow Realm, so you put diseases up on something to dps and then spread it for damage.

No, I put diseases up for damage reduction. See above.

[Recke]

No. The goal is mitigation or avoidance, not DPS. Please stop trying to twist my words, I've been very clear from the beginning.

But you WEREN'T clear at the beginning. You only stated that Expertise and Hit, two stats that go towards mitigation for a warrior, were worse than pure avoidance from a night elf racial, and that hit/expertise capping was wrong because you shouldn't rely on mitigation and instead should rely on avoidance through gearing. I'm not twisting your words, they are in the post every time.

They hasten DS, so, they offer a percentage multiplier on mitigation.

Shield Slam and Revenge grant rage on hit, so, they offer a percentage multiplier on mitigation.
Haste reduces the cooldown of Crusader Strike, Judgement and Hammer of Wrath, thus more Holy Power, so, they offer a percentage multiplier on mitigation.
But, you disregard those and state that those are incorrect. Don't make me quote you on the avoidance build.

Weakened Blows from Plague Strike and Chilblains from Icy Touch says no.

I clearly state that the other tank could apply Weakened Blows. As for Chilblains, why are you try to slow non-slowable or nonmoving targets? (Gara'jal can't be slowed, adds in shadow realm don't move). So, yes? You got me on Chilblains, I agree, though.

No, I put diseases up for damage reduction. See above.

Weakened Blows is 10% physical damage. Everything in the shadow realm is magic. As for Chilblains, see above.

Got anything else you want to be wrong about?

[Deleted]

Firebert, thanks for entertaining me/us with your attempt of an argument when you are clearly in the wrong.

Comedy gold, almost makes me feel bad for you. Almost.

[Firebert]

But you WEREN'T clear at the beginning. You only stated that Expertise and Hit, two stats that go towards mitigation for a warrior, were worse than pure avoidance from a night elf racial, and that not hit/expertise capping was wrong because you shouldn't rely on mitigation and instead should rely on avoidance through gearing. I'm not twisting your words, they are in the post every time.

I believe you're confused.

Parry is avoidance. Dodge is avoidance. Block is mitigation. Expertise and Hit are DPS stats.

Shield Slam and Revenge grant rage on hit, so, they offer a percentage multiplier on mitigation.

They're balanced around no hit. Taking DPS stats to make them hit more often

Haste reduces the cooldown of Crusader Strike, Judgement and Hammer of Wrath, thus more Holy Power, so, they offer a percentage multiplier on mitigation.

Except that the power of that is equivalent to Haste on a DK.

I clearly state that the other tank could apply Weakened Blows.

I don't want to rely on the other tank. Having it refreshed hurts no-one.

As for Chilblains, why are you try to slow non-slowable or nonmoving targets? (Gara'jal can't be slowed, adds in shadow realm don't move). So, yes? You got me on Chilblains, I agree, though.

Chilblains makes IT's plague worth using for its kiting utility, which is useful on other fights.

Weakened Blows is 10% physical damage. Everything in the shadow realm is magic. As for Chilblains, see above.

Standard spec, and I didn't know that, but it doesn't matter.

[Tziva]

Please stick to discussing the topic and not each other.

[Reinholder]

Wow. I'm pretty sure that you've all scared the poor guy that asked the original question off. I'd even forgive him if he turned his back on the warrior altogether and re-rolled a filthy mage after all this. Sooo... how about those Knicks?

[Recke]

In an effort to follow Tziva, I'm not adding a post stating stuff about proper mitigation and tanking information and will save it for the next time this topic comes up.