Mists of Pandaria: The Story So Far.

**Terridon** · 2013-04-09, 11:30 AM

I agree very much with most of it.

Normal raiding is too unforgiving to just 1-2 medicore players now, which is annoying.
Before you could carry these fun players and enjoy it overall, talking during encounters etc. but it seems a lot harder now. Maybe it's just a matter of out gearing things before going there, but we used to be able to gear up from the first bosses.

Dailies..
I actually find the solo scenarios fine. Those you do get once in a while during the dailies/jumps to unlocked areas. It's not repetitive, and you get a feeling that your endless dailies actually bring you onwards.

**kubuntu** · 2013-04-09, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Thylacine

1) The community is a problem, and not one Blizzard can solve.

I agree. I’m only trying to say that you can’t blame the community for everything, Blizzard does make mistakes (the double-gate of the Golden Lotus and mandatory dailies are probably the biggest mistake).

I dont blame comunity foe everything but for like aroud 75% of all problems , sory but if you will go and looks for some problems about witch you got insane about of whine posts with X and repeted post that " X class is retardet" or "OP" or "why you Nerf me" or any other like "X fight is Overtuned" etc if If you will deep see in that problem they post and argument they use you will see how brainless thous people are or how they over react problem or jsut troll,

and i dont say that all whiners are retardet there is something like " constructiw criticysm" and its nice to see it , people who can argument they isuess with good example and show simple solution that wont make more problems then good are realy nice to see , but lets be realistic ther is wery few of them but i dont say taht all are noobs but that ther is a lot of them but ther are alsow peple who argument is realy nice to read

and yest Blizz make mistakes but they are able to fix them and usulay in the patch X.2 of every expanion we get realy well balanced game, meby a bit to late and it shoud be balanced from the begining but well it's styll much bette then most other Companys on game market atm

2) Too many players feel entitled to rewards for no effort.

This is where I become a bit sceptical. When people say things like “most people”, I find they need to be very careful about what they’re claiming. Yes, there is a percentage of people who want to log on for five minutes and get a reward; they’re probably the type of people who want their parents to bring them a present when they’ve gone no further than the toilet. And yes, there’s a percentage at the top of the game that believe nobody should get anything without sweating blood for it… Preferably for a month or two. But in the middle, there are a great number of people who simply want the rewards to fit the investment and are comfortable that they can’t have everything. I’m worried that Blizzard are listening to the extremes too much, rather than the middle ground that generally don’t post on forums.

well i wanted to say thing what you put and the end of this, that people who blizz shoud listen the most shoud be people who understand that you will get revords dependet from your efforst and you cant get everything , Hardcores got HC , run for World or Realm firsts ,and Hight level PvP ,I feal perfect perfect ok with that its realy nice to play game where you dont faceroll everything and even if you play alot there are styl stuffs to do and achieve

I dotn think that blizz is listening extremes to much but i thing that no matter what happend people will be never happy even if blizz woud do what they want and will always said that they are the most ignored Group, clase,race,faction kind of player , that Blizz is always favorit others but never "me"

3) Most people are assholes.

No. Just, no. Because someone views things differently to you, does not make them an asshole. Get a grip of yourself, man.

I didnt mean that if yuo got diffrent opinion then my your asshole, I mean that ther is to meny raging people over the world who do kind of call it "agresive trolling" or what ever who jsut destroy fun for other to jsut make they atention , and they cant even give any logical reson why , Thats why I realy like to separate from them and play ony with people who i know and have funn insted of trying play with randoms and just get enrage

**Crashdummy** · 2013-04-09, 12:41 PM

I find it funny when people accept Blizzard's lie that they are launching content faster, when what they really are doing is cutting content to do so.

Its not like they are producing content faster, its that they are producing one less raid and 7 less dungeons that Wrath, and since raids and dungeons are the most time-expensive content, cutting so many of them allows them to release patch faster.

**Mawnix** · 2013-04-09, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

I find it funny when people accept Blizzard's lie that they are launching content faster, when what they really are doing is cutting content to do so.

Its not like they are producing content faster, its that they are producing one less raid and 7 less dungeons that Wrath, and since raids and dungeons are the most time-expensive content, cutting so many of them allows them to release patch faster.

???????

Are you kidding?

**Pua** · 2013-04-09, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

I find it funny when people accept Blizzard's lie that they are launching content faster, when what they really are doing is cutting content to do so.

Its not like they are producing content faster, its that they are producing one less raid and 7 less dungeons that Wrath, and since raids and dungeons are the most time-expensive content, cutting so many of them allows them to release patch faster.

I’m not sure if you’re serious. Honestly.

WotLK: 10 levels, 9 dungeons, 3 bosses designed at launch.
Cataclysm: 5 levels, 5 dungeons, 13 bosses designed at launch.
MoP: 5 levels, 6 dungeons, 18 bosses designed at launch.

This isn’t including 5.1 and 5.3 which have brought more quest hubs, class changes, scenarios, Brawler’s guild and battlegrounds, or the fact MoP launched with challenge modes, scenarios and pet battles. 3.1 brought only Ulduar (14 bosses), while 5.2 brought the Throne of Thunder (13 bosses), legendary continuation and a new questing hub more quickly than Ulduar was released.

I can only assume I’m missing something because, from where I’m sitting, this is the quickest content has ever been produced and by quite a significant margin.

**Crashdummy** · 2013-04-09, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Destil

???????

Are you kidding?

No, MoP will have one less raid and 7 less dungeons that Wrath. Are you kidding?

---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 12:36 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Thylacine

I’m not sure if you’re serious. Honestly.

WotLK: 10 levels, 9 dungeons, 3 bosses designed at launch.
Cataclysm: 5 levels, 5 dungeons, 13 bosses designed at launch.
MoP: 5 levels, 6 dungeons, 18 bosses designed at launch.

This isn’t including 5.1 and 5.3 which have brought more quest hubs, class changes, scenarios, Brawler’s guild and battlegrounds, or the fact MoP launched with challenge modes, scenarios and pet battles. 3.1 brought only Ulduar (14 bosses), while 5.2 brought the Throne of Thunder (13 bosses), legendary continuation and a new questing hub more quickly than Ulduar was released.

I can only assume I’m missing something because, from where I’m sitting, this is the quickest content has ever been produced and by quite a significant margin.

Cata and MoP had 5 lvls because they wanted tor educe the amoutn of content they had to develop for leveling purposes.

Wrath had one more raid tier than both Cata and MoP and it had a lot of single raid bosses instances, as well as 7 more dungeons.

They are launching the patchs faster, but they are doing so by cutting the content (again, one less raid and 7 less dugneons is a LOT of content, and the kind of expensive one).

Yes you are missing something, you are missing that MoP will have one entire tier less than Wrath and 7 complete dungeons.

**Mawnix** · 2013-04-09, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

No, MoP will have one less raid and 7 less dungeons that Wrath. Are you kidding?

---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 12:36 PM ----------

Cata and MoP had 5 lvls because they wanted tor educe the amoutn of content they had to develop for leveling purposes.

Wrath had one more raid tier than both Cata and MoP and it had a lot of single raid bosses instances, as well as 7 more dungeons.

They are launching the patchs faster, but they are doing so by cutting the content (again, one less raid and 7 less dugneons is a LOT of content, and the kind of expensive one).

Yes you are missing something, you are missing that MoP will have one entire tier less than Wrath and 7 complete dungeons.

1. Wrath had another tier which was TOC. Many people didn't enjoy it and found it half assed. I don't even consider it a raid tbh.

2. Mists has Scenarios, which far outnumber dungeons, are much quicker to run, have a larger story impact due to the fact they're short run instances with story value, and they will soon have a heroic mode. By having a ton of scenarios, for instance adding what, 5 new ones for 5.3 along with probably a few solo Scenarios?, they add more content than one or two dungeons that become boring after the first week or two due to running it again and again and again. I was sick of ZA and ZG in the first 3 days.

3. The raids in Mists are on par with Wrath's due to their size and epic nature. Siege is probably going to be another Throne of Thunder.

So to be honest, unless you just absolutely are in love with dungeons, you're making an excuse for why you think Mists is lacking content, when it isn't. I'd toss in more points but I'm typing on my phone while in astronomy.

**kubuntu** · 2013-04-09, 04:18 PM

Wrath had one more Raid Tier but ToC was quite crap atlest for me , overal all others wow expansions have 3 raid tiers, and like Thylacine point MoP offert much more content to do exept Raits dungeons and BGsor arenas , some call new content crap other like them ,
What MoP ofert new
-Scenarios
-Pet Battles
-Challenge modes
-Dallys (someone likes them )
-Much better present of lore in game
-Brawlers Guild

Personaly i dont care to much about 5 mens they are cool at start but after you total over gear them they are jsut 5-10 min zerg runs , Scenarios for me looks a loot better and present better future and personaly i like them more then Dungeons

**Pua** · 2013-04-09, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

Cata and MoP had 5 lvls because they wanted tor educe the amoutn of content they had to develop for leveling purposes.

But MoP has only two less levelling zones than WotLK (not counting Crystalsong, Wintergrasp or the Vale because they don't really have questing content), despite the extra levels. Also, there are statistically more quests in Pandaria than there were in Northrend. And, no, that's not counting dailies.

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

Wrath had one more raid tier than both Cata and MoP and it had a lot of single raid bosses instances, as well as 7 more dungeons.

That doesn't really matter; what's more important, to me, is the number of bosses designed. If we want to go via the numbers, this is how I believe it looks:

3.0: Sartharion, Malygos and Archavon (3).
3.1: Flame Leviathan, Razorscale, Ignis, XT-002, Iron Council, Kologarn, Auriaya, Hodir, Thorim, Freya, Mimiron, General Vezax, Yogg-Saron, Algalon and Koralon (15).
3.2: Northrend Beasts, Lord Jaraxxus, Faction Champions, Twin Val'kyr, Anub'arak and Toravon (6).
3.3: Marrowgar, Deathwhisper, Gunship, Saurfang, Rotface, Festergut, Putricide, Blood-Princes, Lana'thel, Dreamwalker, Sindragosa, Arthas and Halion (13).

I'm not going to insult your intelligence by bringing up Cataclysm, so let's give WotLK a total of 37 bosses.

5.0: Stone Guard, Feng, Gara'jal, Spirit Kings, Elegon, Will of the Emperor, Zor'lok, Ta'yak, Garalon, Mel'jarak, An'sok, Shek'zeer, Protectors, Tsulong, Lei Shi, Sha of Fear, Sha of Anger and Galleon (18).
5.2: Jin'rokh, Horridon, Elders, Tortos, Megaera, Ji-Kun, Durumu, Primordius, Dark Animus, Iron Qon, Consorts, Lei Shen, Ra-Den, Nalak and Oondasta (15).
5.4: Garrosh Hellscream (1).

That's a total of 34 bosses designed, which means the Siege of Orgrimmar needs to come up with a whopping four more (which it will) in order to beat WotLK outright. You keep bringing up dungeons, but that can easily be weighed off against scenarios, daily hubs, the Brawler's guild, pet battles, the legendary chain and the new battlegrounds.

Let's also consider timing, just for a second. WotLK was released in November '08 IIRC, with Ulduar landing in April of '09; again, IIRC. This leaves us with, roughly, a five-month gap before anyone saw new content. Compare that to the release date of Mists (September '13) and when the Throne of Thunder landed, which is a six-month gap interspersed with a smaller patch with more questing and more scenarios.

This is the fastest content has ever been released. Period.

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

Yes you are missing something, you are missing that MoP will have one entire tier less than Wrath and 7 complete dungeons.

So, MoP has more raid bosses as well as significantly more of everything else other than dungeons, which Blizzard might make for the Siege of Orgrimmar. I'm sorry, but you haven't a leg to stand on in this debate.

**Crashdummy** · 2013-04-10, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Destil

1. Wrath had another tier which was TOC. Many people didn't enjoy it and found it half assed. I don't even consider it a raid tbh.

2. Mists has Scenarios, which far outnumber dungeons, are much quicker to run, have a larger story impact due to the fact they're short run instances with story value, and they will soon have a heroic mode. By having a ton of scenarios, for instance adding what, 5 new ones for 5.3 along with probably a few solo Scenarios?, they add more content than one or two dungeons that become boring after the first week or two due to running it again and again and again. I was sick of ZA and ZG in the first 3 days.

3. The raids in Mists are on par with Wrath's due to their size and epic nature. Siege is probably going to be another Throne of Thunder.

So to be honest, unless you just absolutely are in love with dungeons, you're making an excuse for why you think Mists is lacking content, when it isn't. I'd toss in more points but I'm typing on my phone while in astronomy.

1- It is irrelevant, its one less tier. Yes, one tier was ToCm which wasnt the best, but other two tiers were Ulduar and ICC; two of the best raids in the history of WoW.

2- Scenarios cant replace dungeons, because scenarios are only for DPS. If you go as tank or healer to an scenario you are just slowing your group down, and please, dont even try to put the "pull more mobs" lie because most scenarios are scripted and you cant pull more than what comes.

7 less dungeons and one less raid is way more development time than the time it too to create the crappy cheap scenarios made for DPS only.

3- The raids in Mist are NOT on Wrath levels. ToT is only equal to Ulduar in size, but its a lot worse in art, lore, boss mechanics, tuning and IMO fun.

---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 08:34 AM ----------

Originally Posted by kubuntu

Wrath had one more Raid Tier but ToC was quite crap atlest for me , overal all others wow expansions have 3 raid tiers, and like Thylacine point MoP offert much more content to do exept Raits dungeons and BGsor arenas , some call new content crap other like them ,
What MoP ofert new
-Scenarios
-Pet Battles
-Challenge modes
-Dallys (someone likes them )
-Much better present of lore in game
-Brawlers Guild

Personaly i dont care to much about 5 mens they are cool at start but after you total over gear them they are jsut 5-10 min zerg runs , Scenarios for me looks a loot better and present better future and personaly i like them more then Dungeons

You know what does all that content (except challenge modes) has in common? It does not require a healer or a tank and its actually more efficient as a DPS (yes, even pet battles, because if you are pet battling in Pandaria, you will be doing so at a DPS spec).

If you dont care about 5 mans or one more raid, and you think your list makes up for the lack of them, i would bet you are not a healer.

---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 08:37 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Thylacine

So, MoP has more raid bosses as well as significantly more of everything else other than dungeons, which Blizzard might make for the Siege of Orgrimmar. I'm sorry, but you haven't a leg to stand on in this debate.

MoP doesnt have more raid bosses just because you decide to ignore Naxxramas. I had fun on Naxx in Wrath, i dont care if they didnt have to redesign the raid.

MoP will have LESS raids , LESS raid bosses, and LESS dungeons. MoP will have LESS CONTENT.

**Pua** · 2013-04-10, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

MoP doesnt have more raid bosses just because you decide to ignore Naxxramas. I had fun on Naxx in Wrath, i dont care if they didnt have to redesign the raid.

I loved the WotLK version of Naxxramas; like yourself I expect, I didn't do its original incarnation.

My point, however, is an objective one - Naxxramas, as a raid, required no time to develop for Wrath, just as Onyxia didn't. They were simply retuned, which takes no time at all, and that's why I don't count them; they play no part in the time it takes to develop content, which is what your entire premise is based upon. So even though you're correct about scenarios and how healers/tanks might feel about them, we're talking about development time and the speed of it. Do not try to obscure that fact in order to make yourself look clever.

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

MoP will have LESS raids , LESS raid bosses, and LESS dungeons. MoP will have LESS CONTENT.

MoP will have less dungeons, but more raid bosses, more quests, more daily hubs, more scenarios, more battlegrounds, more environments, more arenas and more new features.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong and your argument is approaching delusional.

Either admit it and stop trying to derail the thread, or I'll report you to the moderation team for trolling.

It's your choice.

**Crashdummy** · 2013-04-10, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Thylacine

I loved the WotLK version of Naxxramas; like yourself I expect, I didn't do its original incarnation.

My point, however, is an objective one - Naxxramas, as a raid, required no time to develop for Wrath, just as Onyxia didn't. They were simply retuned, which takes no time at all, and that's why I don't count them; they play no part in the time it takes to develop content, which is what your entire premise is based upon. So even though you're correct about scenarios and how healers/tanks might feel about them, we're talking about development time and the speed of it. Do not try to obscure that fact in order to make yourself look clever.

MoP will have less dungeons, but more raid bosses, more quests, more daily hubs, more scenarios, more battlegrounds, more environments, more arenas and more new features.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong and your argument is approaching delusional.

Either admit it and stop trying to derail the thread, or I'll report you to the moderation team for trolling.

It's your choice.

Yes, i understand that Wrath Naxx required less time than a new raid, but the fact is that it was content. Maybe they should have amde that again in MoP, with a raid like Kara or any other one.

The point is that Blizzard is giving us one less raid to do. Because if we dont take into account Naxx, then MoP will have 10 less dungeons, not 7, because they didnt have to spend development time in both scarlet and scholomance.

Lets not forget that they supposedly hired more developers.

I am not wrong, they will have given us less content (new or rehashed).

**Mawnix** · 2013-04-10, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

I am not wrong, they will have given us less content (new or rehashed).

Completely subjective. I'll get around to actually responding to your full post(s) when I have more free time, but no, you're wrong by assuming that you're right.

I'm just going to toss this to give you an idea as to how you're mistaken:

Wrath Patches:
3.1: Ulduar. Huge 14 (?) boss raid, class balances, fixes, etc. No dungeons added.
3.2: ToC (Not even a legitimate raid IMO), 1 new, super fast and small dungeon added (Comparable to a Scenario in its size)
3.3: ICC. Huge 12 boss raid, class balances, fixes, 3 new dungeons added (actually in legitimate size and stature aside from Halls of Reflection, whose zone size and length can be comparable to a scenario), Legendary Questline

Cataclysm:
4.1: ZG and ZA redone. Literally just a rehash of it (I have no problem with Rehashes but it wasn't like they were reinventing the zones)
4.2: Firelands: 7 boss raid, entire new daily zone, a few story motivated questlines
4.3: Dragon Soul: 8 boss raid in a reused environment, 3 new dungeons, 1 in a reused environment and 1 in a layered over environment, LFR introduced, transmog introduced, Void storage introduced

Mists:
5.1: Entire new daily hub zone that literally takes up 1/3rd or nearly half or Krasarang Wilds, story questlines at max level, next part of Legendary Questline, Brawler's Guild, 4 new Scenarios (The size and length of something like ToC or a smaller dungeon of that nature), Item Upgrades added.
5.2: Throne of Thunder: 13 boss raid, multiple solo scenarios released, Treasure Run Scenario released, entire new island with daily hub+Rare Spawn Hunting+Rare spawn spawning, SECOND entire new island filled with Dinosaurs and new mounts, two new World Bosses, story questlines at max level, next part of Legendary Questline, Boss Pet Battles, Green Fire Questling for Warlocks.
5.3: 5+ Scenarios, Heroic Scenarios introduced, next part of Legendary Questline, new Open World PVP/PVE zone, story questlines at max level, 2 new ranks for Brawler's Guild+summonable bosses (making the number of bosses near that of how many there were at the LAUNCH of Brawler's Guild), a new BG, a new Arena, among other things they haven't announced yet.

Really.

Less content huh?

I'm curious to see how you'll twist this to say I'm wrong and you're right.

**Paulosio** · 2013-04-10, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by Crashdummy

I find it funny when people accept Blizzard's lie that they are launching content faster, when what they really are doing is cutting content to do so.

Its not like they are producing content faster, its that they are producing one less raid and 7 less dungeons that Wrath, and since raids and dungeons are the most time-expensive content, cutting so many of them allows them to release patch faster.

Lets compare the raid tiers of WOTLK and MOP. So far in MOP we have had 33 bosses (if you include the 4 world bosses). All were new bosses in completely new raid instances. 2 tiers into WOTLK we only had 32 bosses and 15 of those were reused Vanilla bosses in a completely reused raid instance. The time between raids has also been faster and I expect it to continue to be faster than it was in WOTLK and Cata.

You also choose to totally ignore scenarios.... OK fine you may not like them but they stll take development time and count as content. They also advance the lore / story of the expansion all of which also takes dev time. We've had the brawlers guild (which is being expanded agan next patch). We've had 2 daily quest hubs (1 of which brought an entire new zone) which must take a lot of dev time. I accept a lot of people don't particularly love doing daily quests but those zones also greatly advanced the story along as did the scenarios.

Then we've had lots of new pets regularly added each new patch too.

There's also been raid finder for every raid and challenge modes for every dungeon all of which takes more dev time to balance. So ok we've had less 5 man dungeons (at least partially balanced by scenarios) but if you are a casual player you are getting raid finder every raid tier which didn't exist at all in WOTLK and only for 1 tier in Cata. If you are more of a guild raider you probably aren't going to care about 5 man content quite as much and you are getting more FRESH raid content (compared to the reused or lazy 1 room raids we got in wotlk) and it's being released more rapidly than it was in WOTLK and Cata..

It's not a lie that we are getting faster content. It's a fact.

---------- Post added 2013-04-10 at 05:49 PM ----------

How are people coming up with the idea that MOP will have less raids than WOTLK ?

So far we've had 4 raids in MOP (1 of which was double the size of TOC.

WOTLK only had 4 raids for it's entire expansion Naxx (reused), Ulduar, TOC (only 5 bosses in 1 room) and ICC. Wotlk also had three 1 room 1 boss raids in Sartharion, Malygos and Ruby Sanctum. I don't think you can count single boss encounter raids as actual raids.... If they are going to count as raids then surely the 4 world bosses in MOP count too.

So ye MOP has already matched WOTLK for the ammount of raids and we there is still at least 1 more to come (I don't think we know for a fact that siege of Orgrimmar is the only raid left for MOP either).

You could then argue that WOTLK had more raid bosses... Really ?

2 tiers into WOTLK that expansion had 31 raid bosses. I'm including all bosses in Naxx (completely reused bosses and insstance but i'll let that fact go), Ulduar, Malygos and Sartharion.

2 tiers into MOP we've had 33 raid bosses. I'm including all bosses in MSV, HOF, Terrace, Throne of Thunder and the 4 world bosses.

Lets not forget that the WOTLK tier that followed ulduar only had 5 bosses. We can be fairly sure that the next MOP tier will have at least around 12 bosses... That would put MOP 9 raid bosses ahead 3 tiers in.

You then have to assume that there wont be another raid in MOP after the 3rd raid tier (which i've not seen stated officially anywhere) and that they wont release any more bosses that aren't part of a raid tier (which i've also not seen stated). Either way if the next MOP tier has 12 bosses then there would only need to be 4 more bosses in the whole expansion for it to have the same ammount as WOTLK.

**Crashdummy** · 2013-04-10, 09:43 PM