Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Dreknar20]

axes are for chumps, and morons who don't figure on an extremely powerful shaman hitting them with lighting and there axe being a perfect conductor.

isnt that what interupts for?

But if not. Say that to my rubber coated axes!!!!
Sounds less deadly but gets the job done

[Deleted]

I think he has a point, my server is heavily faction-imbalanced (Favouring the Alliance, & I'm strictly Horde) & I can't remember the last time the Allies staged a successful attack on Hellscream. Orgrimmar is a FORTRESS, heavily guarded from the air & ground, & without Horde assistance getting into THEIR capital it'd be heavy losses all round. the Alliance could do it, but not without losing a LOT of soldiers...

[Octavius]

Power and land is limited on a planet. You cannot gain unless someone loses.

Yes but during a period of peace a race could improve itself with tecnology, could grow in numbers etc... And honestly there are some regions left in Azeroth which are still contested and are pretty lush. An example, Feralas. If you need more resources, take that! War must to have a sense, otherwise takes more than what it gives also to the winner.
Trassk nice to meet you!

[Dreknar20]

the Alliance could do it, but not without losing a LOT of soldiers...

isnt that what the players are for.

I daresay we are quite overpowered

[Octavius]

Orgrimmar is a FORTRESS, heavily guarded from the air & ground, & without Horde assistance getting into THEIR capital it'd be heavy losses all round. the Alliance could do it, but not without losing a LOT of soldiers...

True story.

[bufferunderrun]

isnt that what the players are for.

I daresay we are quite overpowered

you are mistaken player characters in lore are very few like 30 or so, each of your character live in a parallel reality, there aren't 10mil of heroes at the same time in worcraft universe.

[Dreknar20]

you are mistaken player characters in lore are very few like 30 or so, each of your character live in a parallel reality, there aren't 10mil of heroes at the same time in worcraft universe.

yet those 10/25 players are capable of incredible feats

[Octavius]

you are mistaken player characters in lore are very few like 30 or so, each of your character live in a parallel reality, there aren't 10mil of heroes at the same time in worcraft universe.

Uhhh you're italian! However Yes, sense this thing.

[Florena]

I think he has a point, my server is heavily faction-imbalanced (Favouring the Alliance, & I'm strictly Horde) & I can't remember the last time the Allies staged a successful attack on Hellscream. Orgrimmar is a FORTRESS, heavily guarded from the air & ground, & without Horde assistance getting into THEIR capital it'd be heavy losses all round. the Alliance could do it, but not without losing a LOT of soldiers...

Yeah, in lore sieging Org and killing Hellscream won't be as easy as it is in game now. In lore, everyone can't just hop on flying mounts and storm into grommash hold from the air and not have armies killing them/shooting them down etc.

In the meantime... good news for those annoyed by Vol'jin's optional dialogue.

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/322815138476474369

[SodiumChloride]

Because like it or not, Thrall is the Horde. He created it. He personifies it in a way that no Alliance character (none living at least) can. Everything the Horde does to the people of the Alliance is on his head, in the end.

...

That's almost like hating a person because he is black. >.>

Anyway he created the New Horde. Not the New New Horde. The New Horde that helped kill C'Thun, Ragnaros, the Lich King ... etc

Then Blizzard soured even a lot of Horde players on him with the shitty writing in Cataclysm. Besides, he put Garrosh in charge. That gives you an automatic several million minus points.

Not really. We are just pissed at the shitty writing - and horrible presentation.

Putting Garrosh in charge was a mistake. Who doesn't make mistakes?

Yeah except that the worgen were completely forgotten after their own starting zone. Sylvanas? Not so much.

Sylvanas has her own books ... She is a major lore character.

The Blood Elves and Draenei were more or less completely forgotten after BC too - until recently. Cry me a river.

[TheLimonTree]

What bothered me most about this is he actually says that he would give our dead to Sylvanas.

Disturbing stuff.

Pretty sure he was exaggerating and bluffing. He probably is just pointing out that it could be worse.

[SodiumChloride]

Pretty sure he was exaggerating and bluffing. He probably is just pointing out that it could be worse.

It's not really that bad either. Your dead would have a second chance at "life".

[Centauri]

That's just a sarcastic retort to some smart aleck who said "myaah we don't want your help" or something similar.

Read it again. The whole thing is dripping with sarcasm and Vol'jin not-so-subtly implying, "This is our only option, you dim-witted dolt."

[Florena]

That's just a sarcastic retort to some smart aleck who said "myaah we don't want your help" or something similar.

Read it again. The whole thing is dripping with sarcasm and Vol'jin not-so-subtly implying, "This is our only option, you dim-witted dolt."

A tweet from Kosak also suggests that he's bluffing, and that they're going to give alliance an option to call his bluff and 'make him sweat a little.'

[Sandrox]

The Blood Elves and Draenei were more or less completely forgotten after BC too - until recently. Cry me a river.

Draenei were forgotten, but Blood Elves were not. They had the Sunreavers, Argent Tournament, and the San'layn in Wrath. In cataclysm they didnt have as much, but they still had the Reliquary.

Dreanei are all but forgotten. Even during BC they played second fiddle to the Blood Elves. The most they have had is random NPC's in the Earthen Ring.

[Talen]

Well, he may sit and watch Garrosh do his Sha supersoldier thing and wipe the Alliance out. Or the new manabomb. Or the plague - not so improbable after the manabomb. Garry doesn't have the moral brakes that could make him care about humanity (as a concept, not race) or collateral damage.

A possibility which, at best, simply emphasises the need to deal with Horde threat once and for all. Garrosh wasn't the first Horde leader to go for the bug guns...Grom, for example, went running to demons to deal with his little problem. What this argument doesn't provdie is any reason for Varian to actually ally with, befriend or other interact with vol'jin beyond the "Lets sit back and let them fight it out plan" he SAYS he is putting into place.

Varian and the Alliance should NOT be asking permission from Vol'jin to join in on this fight. Which, in effect, is what they are doing. If Varian is wanting to let the two sides fight it out, he should not be effectively allying with one side of the fight. He should be conducting strikes against BOTH sides to ensure neither one gains the upper hand. At worst - proving Vol'jin with material support is all he needs to do.

He is not befriending them, have you read his letter? He is using them, that is all.

He SAYS he is using them. Going diplomacy mode with Vol'jin, having to prove the Alliances trustworthyness, doing your bets to build up Vol'jins forces and so on means he is in effective alliance and actually, is NOT using them.

You know, I never quite understood why Alliance players think their faction is getting screw story-wise.

Is this as serious question? Because the flaws in the story and the Alliance have been pointed out time and time and time again.

To give a prime example - Thrall has gotten more character development than all the Alliance leaders put together.
Another? The Worgens got written off and their story scrapped.
Another? The Draenei have been ignored for six years. The Worgen for four.
Another? The Goblin story is effectively finished. The Gnomes barely touched. They are still where they are when the game launched.
Another? Alliance content wasn't finished in Cataclysm. The Worgen weren't even fully integrated into Darkshore or other zones. How many times was your Worgen referred to as Night Elf? The Alliance intro into TH was scrapped in favor of a poor Easter Egg. The Alliance got a Cut'n'Paste intro into the Vermillion Redoubt.
The sheer difference in quality between the Goblins and Worgen.
The overuse of Deus Ex Machinas used against the Alliance in Cataclysm., and the tone where the Alliance were seen as jokes.
And lots more besides.

As Wrathion stated a united Azeroth can hold off the threat.

To be blunt - he's wrong. Azeroth, united, at full strength, and with full cooperation between factions, should NOT be able to defeat the Legion in a full scale battle. The legion is fully capable of destroying Azeroth if and when it finds it again. Which is why the question....Why is the BL NOT sending its full strength?...important. What is on Azeroth that the BL wants?

The horde are not a bad faction, only the old horde in wc1 and 2 were like that. WC3 showed that the horde could take another path. Only now has the horde gone down the wrong road and its shown by the many factions that a lot of the horde doesnt like this path and thats why theres a rebellion.

The problem is not that the Horde can't take a different path. The problem is that most of the Horde don't want to.

So it is because you lost a few battles ... >.>

No. It's more
a: there was no balance in the losses.
b: the tone of the losses - seriously? Forsaken rookies take on the 7thg legion? A Goblin with a Cheese hat blows up a major fortress?
c: the overuse of Deus Ex Machinas that turned Alliance victories into instant defeats.
d: The sheer passivity of the Alliance and their disregard for and lack of interest in their constant defeats
e: the lack of integration into the Alliance story of this war.

And that on top of the poor storytelling. Some one has to lose, and it may as well be the Alliance. But Blizzard pulled the "We're winning - RUN!!!! They have NUKES!!!" trick too often, it didn't have the Alliance acknowledge the defeats, it didn't have the players integrated into the war storyline at all. It treated the Alliance role in the conflict as a joke.

Anyway the change in land controlled is to balance out the levelling zones of both factions.

Needs to stated - STUPID reason. Horrible reason. Arbitrary and idiotic.

What was needed was not evening out the zones. What was needed was providing BOTH factions, all races, an exciting well told story to take part in. If Blizzard felt that equal zones were somehow required...they weren't...they should have placed a Horde presence in existing Alliance zones.

Have the Dragonmaw in Wetlands involved in strikes against Menethil, have the Horde push North from Stranglethorn into Darkshire and Westfall, take over the Blackrock and strike into Elwynn and Modan. Get BOTH sides involved in the war. And keep the Worgen in Gilneas and Lordaerona so they have some role within the game.

As I said, the lost of land is to balance out faction territory.

Idiocy has no place in this game.

Sylvanas got as much story time as the Worgen race.

Sylvanas and the Forsaken got more development than most other races. Including the Worgen.

Alliance hero goes neutral? HORDE BIAS!
Horde hero goes neutral? HORDE BIAS!
The logic is killing me.

The point here comes down to motivation and justification.
Thrall going "neutral"? He's the Warchief of his people. He's a Good Shaman.
Could he give up all that if he believed doing so would help his people? Yes.
And then he hogged the entire XPac because he became the ever-living World Shaman Extraordinaire!!!! Glory to his power. Which in turn was one element which helped drag the entire focus of the Xpac onto one character and the Horde.
Alliance heroes and factions, OTOH, have the strong impression of going neutral simply to save Blizzard the time of developing a Horde equivalent. Dalaran for example. At a time when the Alliance was cooperating with the Horde against the LK, Dalaran left the Alliance because it felt the need to cooperate with the Horde. Of course, the Earthen Ring is the same way. There's little reason for a Horde faction to open itself to the Alliance.
Your argument here is simplistic because it ignores context and motivations.

That's just a sarcastic retort to some smart aleck who said "myaah we don't want your help" or something similar.
Read it again. The whole thing is dripping with sarcasm and Vol'jin not-so-subtly implying, "This is our only option, you dim-witted dolt."

Vol'jin needs the Alliance otherwise his people, his rebellion dies. The Alliance will benefit slightly in the short term if it helps him, but ultimately it is the Alliance who has the option of holding back and waiting for both sides to weaken themselevs fighting. It is the Alliance, not Vol'jin, who has the option of swooping in and mopping up the survivors.

In making this "threat" Vol'jin is NOT coming over as sarcastic. He's coming over as idiotic. A bumbling idiot. A fool. He's making threats to a person who knows he isn't in the position to follow through on them. And Vol'jin should know this.

Vol'jin is right that he has one option. His option is not let the Alliance fight it out with Garrosh. No - it is to either find more help from somewhere or see his rebellion crushed. Sarcastic or not, the very fact he makes this threat is a big step backwards for Vol'jins characterisation.

EJL

[Eats Compost]

To be blunt - he's wrong. Azeroth, united, at full strength, and with full cooperation between factions, should NOT be able to defeat the Legion in a full scale battle. The legion is fully capable of destroying Azeroth if and when it finds it again. Which is why the question....Why is the BL NOT sending its full strength?...important. What is on Azeroth that the BL wants?

I have to disagree with this. The Legion can't just magically summon in all their forces wherever they want, especially for their more powerful beings. Remember, the entire point of the Sunwell incident was the Legion trying to get Kil'jaeden - the single most powerful demon currently alive and active in the Legion, as well as their leader in Sargeras' absence - summoned into Azeroth. I think that trying to get Kil'jaeden in there is about the biggest thing they can muster.

The legion might be nearly limitless, but they're scattered across many worlds (and even planes) and need portals to get from point A to point B, and getting armies of demons through a portal seems to be very taxing, given that it's implied that the energy needed to put something through a portal is directly proportional to the power of that being.

There's also the possibility that this time the Legion is using physical travel through a spaceship like the Draenei, and are only just nearing Azeroth. You wouldn't need silly portals that way, but it will have taken a while.

[Talen]

I have to disagree with this. The Legion can't just magically summon in all their forces wherever they want

They have demons who can walk through a portal, cast a single spell and walk right back having killed off every living thing on the planet.

The weak point of the Legion is transport. By and large, they require some sort of portal to allow their forces access. And their more powerful troops require more powerful portals. But they can send troops via other means. They can access worlds directly - its just not as efficient.

The last time the Legion sent a full scale invasion, they were driven back only because the Portal was destroyed. How may troops did they lose? Very few. The legion has been doing this for a very long time, and with a great deal of success. On its own, Azeroth has a hope if...and only if...the legion sends only a tiny fraction of its strength.

So - no. Wrathion is wrong. The Horde and Alliance together have no hope of withstanding a full scale invasion by the Burning Legion. A small strike force? perhaps.

EJL

[Dreknar20]

As I said, the lost of land is to balance out faction territory.
.

Thats something to remember. Even with all the Alliance QQ about "losing", there is still more Alliance only zones than Horde only zones.

---------- Post added 2013-04-13 at 08:36 AM ----------

So - no. Wrathion is wrong. The Horde and Alliance together have no hope of withstanding a full scale invasion by the Burning Legion. A small strike force? perhaps.
L

Must be why we kicked their asses three times already

[Wildtree]

Pretty sure he was exaggerating and bluffing. He probably is just pointing out that it could be worse.

Exactly what I think about that too.