Vol'jin on, "Why should we (Alliance) help you?" (5.3 spoilers)

[Deleted]

Nah, when the time is right, we will help the rebellion, cause shit storywriting needs the horde to be alive for next expac, and needs that horde to owe the alliance a favor...

When the time is "right", the rebellion is crushed. Baine himself tells to Vol'jin that they simply don't have the numbers.

So, Garrosh is like a lobster, the best way to cook it is by slowly bowling the water. Helping the rebellion gives the Alliance two fronts against Orgrimmar.

[Nathreim]

Yeah, nothing there suggests he hates the Alliance.

He's just saying "Look, this is the plan we're going with. You don't like it, fine, I can always let you and Garrosh's forces kill each other and we'll clean up what's left. No? Alright, then we'll go with my plan."

Or in other words "This is the plan. STFU, we don't have time to waste, THIS. IS. DA. PLAN........MON." X3

Pretty much this I mean your just a mercenary who are you to question the plan? Specially when Vol'jin knows the layout of the battlefield and they strategies Garrosh will use better than anyone the Alliance can bring to the table.

[Talen]

Must be why we kicked their asses three times already

The first time....they lost because Malfurion destroyed the portal. They were able to take on the Night Elf Empire, the Dragonflights, the spirits of nature, the Tauren and Earthen all of whom made a very small dent in the legions forces.
The second...they sent the Scourge and a few demons. The Scourge are still on Azeroth as are the demons. They lost Archimonde...probably lost Archimonde.
The third...Kil'jaeden was using most of his power to stabilize the rift before it closed.

In short, Azeroth has faced a single full scale invasion by the Burning Legion...and survived due to a fluke.

Without Vol'jin and his rebellion. Here is exactly how a full Alliance invasion would go out.

Alliance invade Durotar shoreline. Garrosh has prepared defences, heavy Alliance loses on the beachhead.

Either that or they'd land elsewhere after Garrosh has weakened himself fighting Vol'jin.

You should really check out 5.3 pictures. The only place the Alliance could land safely is in Southern Durotar.

Yes.. And? They'd be there.

Then it's just a case of marching your army over the entire length of Durotar, THEN Attack a huge city wall, THEN try and storm the city. THEN try and kill Garrosh.

You are overlooking that operative word - Siege. As pointed out, the city has very few entrances and is largely blocked off from a supply lines because the entrances are chokepoints. The Alliance doesn't need to attack the city. It just needs to secure the choke points. Garrosh has already poisoned his own water supply so how long he will be able to withstand that depends solely on how much water he has stockpiled.

Also, getting air superiority. from a Naval assault against a stronghold with airship docks? Are you high?

The Alliance has airborne carriers. And I personally want to see the Skybreaker finally drop its bomb.
As it is, Horde airships don't have a reputation for combat capability.

And I'll just point out the three entrances. You'll need a large army to fight through Aszhara, home to many goblin things. to even try and cut that supply way off, You'd probably have to capture bilgewater habor also.

Assumes they'll fight for Garrosh, doesn't it? It's also right next door to Ashenvale...and the Night Elfs.

The side entrance is tricky, but probably alot more doable, but it costs resources and time to try and hold it down.

Or you could just blow the bridge.

Now Your Army is split, and you can probably not hold the siege as Garrosh can simply divert forces to a major counterpush against either the main gate or the Aszhara gate to relive the pressure.

At which point the other side puts the pressure on. Lets not also forget the problems caused by potential naval bomardment, the need to guard his prisoners and maintain control of the city, guard the water and so on.

Am I the only one that wants to see a huge gnomish Naval Gyrocopter/Fighter Carrier? Goblins have their Azshara Cannon. I want a HUGE. GNOMISH. GYROCOPTER. CARRIER! COMPLETE WITH ALLIANCE ESCORT!

Carrier has arrived, mothaf***ers!

Gnomes have an orbital weapons platform.

I want to see that used again as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqd5rt1Z_WM

Personally I put it down to just plain bad writing rather than "favouritism" of any sort.

Probably - the end result is the same.

IMHO big part of your "offence" is your perception of this LOLstory and how you choose to interpret the lousy writing.

Blizzard have acknowledged the flaws in the Alliance story.

You disagree with the assessment that it was to balance out the zones?

No. I'm stating it was an idiotic reason to do so.

Which is EXACTLY what the Alliance is doing. And by making the rebels stronger, more Garrosh loses, easier for the Alliance when it finally arrives.

Which doesn't require the Alliance to approach Vol'jin, talk to him, accept his insults or threats, prove their trustworthiness or anything else that happens in that scenario.

They can sit back, relax, enjoy the sunrise, drop off the occasional weapons crate or two, send in a small SI7 team now and again and summon the fleet when the fighting has stopped.

EJL

[Deleted]

Which doesn't require the Alliance to approach Vol'jin, talk to him, accept his insults or threats, prove their trustworthiness or anything else that happens in that scenario.

They can sit back, relax, enjoy the sunrise, drop off the occasional weapons crate or two, send in a small SI7 team now and again and summon the fleet when the fighting has stopped.

The fleet is still being built, so they can't summon it. And a good strategist DON'T want the in-fighting to stop, that means Garrosh won and can full focus on one front against the Alliance on the beach.

So no, the best solution is the current one, helping the rebellion staying alive so it grinds more and more of Garrosh's defenses UNTIL the Alliance Fleet arives. Two fronts is better than one.

[Florena]

The fleet is still being built, so they can't summon it. And a good strategist DON'T want the in-fighting to stop, that means Garrosh won and can full focus on one front against the Alliance on the beach.

So no, the best solution is the current one, helping the rebellion staying alive so it grinds more and more of Garrosh's defenses UNTIL the Alliance Fleet arives. Two fronts is better than one.

The fleet is 'assembled' but will take time to get there. And without aid, there's no way the Rebellion can strike against Orgrimmar.

Also, Kosak tweeted that Alliance players will be given an option to call Vol'jin's bluff and 'make him sweat a little' in a future build.

[Lavannah]

The fleet is 'assembled' but will take time to get there. And without aid, there's no way the Rebellion can strike against Orgrimmar.

Also, Kosak tweeted that Alliance players will be given an option to call Vol'jin's bluff and 'make him sweat a little' in a future build.

Hahahaha! We do? I hope so. I wanna see him respond to that. I may be a Vol'jin fan, but I wanna see this lol.

[Talen]

The fleet is still being built, so they can't summon it.

So...no time pressure.

And a good strategist DON'T want the in-fighting to stop, that means Garrosh won and can full focus on one front against the Alliance on the beach.

Yes. Which doesn't require the Alliance to make friends with Vol'jin, turn the other cheek to his insults and threats or indeed do anything beyond drop off supplies every now and again. The Alliance can have this fight drag out without this partnership.

EJL

[whatthefudge]

He is just advocating working together, implying that if the Alliance tried to handle it alone (which was most likely implied before this screenshot) they would fail or were more likely to fail.

There is nothing bigoted about his words or mindset, this is not different than the Vol'jin we're familiar to.


Off topic: The hint at cooperation does strengthen the argument for those who think the "not yet released" MOP feature is going to be cross faction raiding, at least specifically for Siege of Orgrimmar.

[Deleted]

Yes. Which doesn't require the Alliance to make friends with Vol'jin, turn the other cheek to his insults and threats or indeed do anything beyond drop off supplies every now and again. The Alliance can have this fight drag out without this partnership.

An "insult" that comes after the Alliance PC douche question.

But, again, it is what is happening. A spec-ops team on the field and a supply route. That's it, that's what the Alliance has on Durotar/Barrens, to supply the rebellion AND spy at the same time.

[Talen]

An "insult" that comes after the Alliance PC douche question.

Its a valid question given the scenario.

Vol'jin overreacts.

But, again, it is what is happening. A spec-ops team on the field and a supply route. That's it, that's what the Alliance has on Durotar/Barrens, to supply the rebellion AND spy at the same time.

And again - why approach Vol'jin at all? They gain nothing from this they wouldn't have gotten anyway. There is no need for two spies to arrange a defacto alliance with their nations enemy. And with no time pressure, no reason given, the Alliance has no reason to stand by and accept those insults, no reason not to turn around and simply leave, no reason to even hint at Alliance warplans.

Because Vol'jin has to fight. That choice isn't his to make anymore. By avoiding the question, by insulting and threatening the Alliance, he's stating that he is someone the Alliance shouldn't trust, that he is someone they shouldn't work with.

EJL

[Sky High]

Because Vol'jin has to fight. That choice isn't his to make anymore. By avoiding the question, by insulting and threatening the Alliance, he's stating that he is someone the Alliance shouldn't trust, that he is someone they shouldn't work with.

EJL

because why not make the job easier on you? I've heard enough "weez allies could roflpwn Org" to get you guys "speculate" that you can handle it yourselves. the extra aid and support from those that know the land and can effectively cut supplies to Org off, make the siege an "in the back" situation.

really, where are people getting this idea that both sides should trust each other? it's clear Vol'jin doesn't trust the allies, he has no reason too other then their desire to kill Garrosh, one would assume it would be the same way for the allies. and again, why do we have to be "friendly" to each other? it makes no sense given the last time Vol'jin came to help the allies out when he went and warned them about the Zandalari whipping the Gurubashi and Amani up he got a "ok, yea sure well look into it, fuck off now, you ugly damned troll", and that both sides involved here oh I don't know... hate each other? that is true right? the horde and allies DON'T historically like the other? he is using the allies to get what he wants, and the allies are using him to get what THEY want. it's a business transaction, really no need to see this past that. this idea that Vol'jin should be "nice" and grateful to the allies is ignoring both lore and Jol'jin as a character, and replacing it with factionalist self entitlement, it's irritating.

how about this? AFTER it is all said and done Garry is dead. 3 cheers w/e. you can walk up to him and he thanks you and is grateful for your help. then, you can stab him and walk off while he bleeds to death. punishment for DARING to have a back bone when dealing with the allies.

[khalltusk]

The alliance knows they need to deal with Garrosh and the best way to keep up the pressure until their main force arrives is to enable the horde rebels to create enough noise to keep Garry occupied.

If the alliance simply siege Orgrimmar innocent lives will be lost if they simply just starve the city. The people trapped in there would have no relief. So this plan by directly tieing up Garrys goons and then when the allies arrive to hit Garrosh hard on multiple fronts is the best course of action. Varian as stated by blizzard doesnt want to go in and cleanse the city. He wants Garrys head on a pike the innocents there will be spared.

Voljin is simply trying to provoke a reaction from the player to say its easier to work with me than against me.

[Florena]

Its a valid question given the scenario.

Vol'jin overreacts.



And again - why approach Vol'jin at all? They gain nothing from this they wouldn't have gotten anyway. There is no need for two spies to arrange a defacto alliance with their nations enemy. And with no time pressure, no reason given, the Alliance has no reason to stand by and accept those insults, no reason not to turn around and simply leave, no reason to even hint at Alliance warplans.

Because Vol'jin has to fight. That choice isn't his to make anymore. By avoiding the question, by insulting and threatening the Alliance, he's stating that he is someone the Alliance shouldn't trust, that he is someone they shouldn't work with.

EJL

Yeah, let's aid the Darkspear without telling them what we're doing! That won't possibly lead to any misunderstandings or put our people in unneeded danger if darkspear scouts find them. Why the hell would you give aid to somebody without coordinating with them?

Also, it's ptr. We're getting an option to call his bluff, we don't have to just sit there and take it. And you only get that dialogue option if you're a douche to Vol'jin, essentially showing up and saying 'hey we both hate garrosh, so we're willing to help you out.' Then saying '**** you, why should we help you instead of helping ourselves?'

By arming the darkspear, we accomplish two things.

1. We keep the superior forces of Orgrimmar from driving them out or into hiding.

2. The Darkspear can kill more orcs, lessening the enemy's number, and securing a landing spot for our fleet.

We save alliance lives and get to land our fleet on Garrosh's doorstep instead of fighting through the barrens or ashenvale to get there. Would you throw that all away like a child throwing a tantrum because Vol'jin said something mean after you're an ass to him first? Or would you let it slide because with his plan Darkspear and Orcs are killing eachother more because of your actions and thinning the numbers of the enemy, saving the lives of your own people when the siege comes?

[Ramz]

Hahaha this thread is hilarious xD So many people having problems with reading and understanding the text. His reply made me laugh and i think it was decently sharp to make a point. Ofc he was bluffing, and yet you needed a developer to confirm that in fact he was bluffing xD
He used sarcasm to get his point right and cease any further speculations.

It's funny to see others reactions like Talens who clearly got butt-hurt becuase Vol'Jin was mean to them- how dare he! Because any other sensible Horde leader in such a stressing and dreadful situation had a patience to enlighten sassy Mr. Nobody #3478234 Alliance grunt intoducing him to all the consequences. While the fact is- they have no time for that. His reaction was absolutely natural.

And the the longer they prolong the assult the bigger disaster Garrosh may unleash.

Also it's not like Alliance is befriending with Darkspears, it's cooperation made out of convenience where they barely tolerate each other. VJ is using Allies to decrease number of Garrosh loyalists and faster get into the city where remaining prisoners are, just like Allies will be using rebels as decoy to transport under Orgrimmar thier army and made an assult- so something they have been waiting for, and have been preparing for since Cataclysm. So don't say stuff like :

Vol'jin's logic is really flawed here.

When asked "Why should we alliance help YOU?" Vol'jin's response assumes that the Alliance want to invade orgrimmar, when it's exactly the opposite.

Well i had different impression after looking what happened in Barrens xD

Alliance wants to do nothing of the sort, while Vol'jin is the one that wants to kill garrosh and invade Orgrimmar. Alliance can just sit back, relax, and watch as the Horde decimates itself from within, and then just swoop in and finish them off in one swift decisive strike, while they are still weak.

So my question is: Why should WE help YOU? (except loot.) What do we win? Alliance are commiting SOLDIERS, SUPPLIES and HEROES to help the HORDE to change their moronic leader, wich, given he stays in power, not only will greatly weaken the Horde as a whole, but would grant the alliance the full support of the Pandaren in Pandaria. What LOGIC is there BEHIND this!?

Because Alliance wanted to do it for a really long time, and waiting is relly not the solution here, Both alliance and rebels feel pressure, since every second Garrosh is increasing in strenght. Vol'Jin has even bigger pressure on him, because he also aims to rescue prisoners.

And I also don't get why Some of you are pulling up the idea that Alliance will strike at Orgrimmar with it's all force? I don't even think there will be 40% of overall army there, since it's scattered arounf the Azeroth and Outland, kirin Tor as far as I am concern made a campain against Thunder King, so it's absolutely unrealistic to think that in such a short time all Alliance army will be present during the Siege.

Therefore they cannot risk loosing more soldiers than needed. That's the reasons why cooperating with rebels is a very reasonable idea. "But hat will we gain for helping them?!!!" - lesser casulties. But if you feel that Sarcastic comment VJ made was way too hurtful("more than I could bear!!") to the point you could ragestorm and attack both rebels and Horde, or wait til Garrosh first will strike and therefore making you loose decent amounf of army (if not loosing overall in Durotar) was worth it, then congratulations, but you're a horrible tactitian.

I also think that it's huge exaggeration to say that VJ was threatening and insulting Alliance as faction. His sarcasting comment was made to give a picture of eventual consequences, but how could he actually really foresee the scale of it? Therefore he wasn't threathening Alliance (as you guys already notices that he has no power to do it) but told about situation where they don't work together, how much more grim picture that would be.

And I don't see how was that a stupid move, if it worked to stop further speculation on how they are meant to work, and from what I understood is that Rebels and alliance will be two different groups working on thier own (although I might be wrong here). Or you guys really thought that he would be a second Velen who will be more concerned over enemies who have been haunting his people, and aid them gladly? xD

So how is that a bad writing? Everything looks reasonable to me .

And i am really glad that we finally have a leader who is well-thought and stands on a field between such a oppostions like Thrall and Garrosh was.
He won't cheer at Alliance (are you actually surprised? i see nothing wrong with it), he won't start stupid and needless fights, but if there will a situation where offensive has to be made he won't hesist.

[Frontenac]

Yeah, let's aid the Darkspear without telling them what we're doing! That won't possibly lead to any misunderstandings or put our people in unneeded danger if darkspear scouts find them. Why the hell would you give aid to somebody without coordinating with them?

Also, it's ptr. We're getting an option to call his bluff, we don't have to just sit there and take it. And you only get that dialogue option if you're a douche to Vol'jin, essentially showing up and saying 'hey we both hate garrosh, so we're willing to help you out.' Then saying '**** you, why should we help you instead of helping ourselves?'

By arming the darkspear, we accomplish two things.

1. We keep the superior forces of Orgrimmar from driving them out or into hiding.

2. The Darkspear can kill more orcs, lessening the enemy's number, and securing a landing spot for our fleet.

We save alliance lives and get to land our fleet on Garrosh's doorstep instead of fighting through the barrens or ashenvale to get there. Would you throw that all away like a child throwing a tantrum because Vol'jin said something mean after you're an ass to him first? Or would you let it slide because with his plan Darkspear and Orcs are killing eachother more because of your actions and thinning the numbers of the enemy, saving the lives of your own people when the siege comes?

Aren't we supposed to take, or at least control, all supply routes in Northern Barrens before the raid? Why then should the Alliance land? Why not launch an attack from Ashenvale, where the bulk of Alliance forces in Kalimdor already are?

Isn't it time to see the Night Elves come back with a vengeance?

[Sandrox]

Aren't we supposed to take, or at least control, all supply routes in Northern Barrens before the raid? Why then should the Alliance land? Why not launch an attack from Ashenvale, where the bulk of Alliance forces in Kalimdor already are?

Isn't it time to see the Night Elves come back with a vengeance?

That would involve writing the Night Elves as something other than brainless tree hugging strippers. Not going to happen.

[Haven]

That would involve writing the Night Elves as something other than brainless tree hugging strippers. Not going to happen.

Haha, true

[Talen]

because why not make the job easier on you? I've heard enough "weez allies could roflpwn Org" to get you guys "speculate" that you can handle it yourselves. the extra aid and support from those that know the land and can effectively cut supplies to Org off, make the siege an "in the back" situation.

The problem is Vol'jin is still the Alliances enemy.
The problem is there is no reason fro the alalicne to approach him.
The problem is doing so brings the Alliance zero benefit. They gain nothing...everything they want from him, he will provide regardless of what they do.

Its not a case of the Alliance will roflstomp the city - if they coudln't they wouldn't even contemplate this assault. Its a given that they can.

But allying with Vol'jin won't make it easier. Vol'jin fighting Garrosh will make it easier...and they're going to get that anyway.

So the Alliance have no need to subjugate themselevs to Vol'jin. No need to accept his insults. No need to accept his threats.

Because you seem to think Vol'jin has something to offer the Alliance. He doesn't. And both sides know this.

Yeah, let's aid the Darkspear without telling them what we're doing! That won't possibly lead to any misunderstandings or put our people in unneeded danger if darkspear scouts find them. Why the hell would you give aid to somebody without coordinating with them?

Because you are USING them. You are making them spend their lives so your soldiers will survive. And while you can argue that there is a possibility tht the darkspear will figth abck and kill off a few men....the truth is, that's going to happen anyway.

Vol'jin and the Darkspear are still the enemies of the Alliance and all the trust building exercises in the world won;'t change that.

By arming the darkspear, we accomplish two things.

And what does the Alliance gain by partnering with him? Arming him doesn't require partnership. It doesn't require friendship. It doesn't even require talks. The Alliance could tell Vol'jin exactly why they are doing it and Vol'jin would still have to take the weapons.

What does partnering give the Alliance that they can't get without it? Nothing.

Ofc he was bluffing, and yet you needed a developer to confirm that in fact he was bluffing xD

Really? The problem for me was not that he was making an obvious bluff.

The problem...for Vol'jin....was that it was a stupid bluff.

He ticked off the Alliance for no good reason. He risked his peoples future because his feelings were hurt? No - his response is foolhardy and idiotic. It is a reply worthy of Garrosh. But this is Vol'jin speaking. And he should be above such lunacy.

It's funny to see others reactions like Talens who clearly got butt-hurt becuase Vol'Jin was mean to them- how dare he!

I don't like the Alliance going to Vol'jin because the entire set up emphasises the way they've been shoehorned into this story. I don't like Vol;'jins sresposne because it turns him into Garrosh.

EJL

[orderschvank]

all of you completely missed the sarcasm in the first part of what he said.... idiots...

[This post was infracted for flaming.]

[Sky High]

So the Alliance have no need to subjugate themselevs to Vol'jin. No need to accept his insults. No need to accept his threats.

you really have no concept of sarcasm do you? oh wait, you are an up the ass alliance fan boy, so anything that doesn't stroke your ego is instantly discounted as "subjugation" or "insults that should not be tolerated" and "threats". silly me for thinking otherwise. and as of yet we don't know what Garrosh is doing under Org for all we know it's an army of sha hulks that eat joy and happiness and breath out fear and suffering. for all YOU and I know it could be walking into a slaughter. oh what am I saying that for. you guys have been able to handle EVERYTHING that Garrosh has thrown your way right?

Vol'jin DOES have things to offer, if he wanted he could call in aid from the other horde factions like the Tauren that will more then likely come in force to help end Garrosh. along with a sure way to chip away at his forces, and give ways to infiltrate and sabotage defenses in and outside the city. you are just too drunk on the Kool-aid to even comprehend such things.