Mistweaving gemming

[Hottie4Hire]

Simple question:

Should I use secondary stat gems when there's a blue or yellow socket or should I always try to put intellect on my gear? What about after I have enough spirit? Is 80 intellect worth more than 160 crit?

[Deleted]

Intellect is king for output, at most levels of crit anyway. Critical strike is your priority after your easiest to reach breakpoint of haste (3145, 6141 in higher gear levels), spirit is fine but don't overdo it, OOM with this class is more about improper play as opposed to lacking spirit.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Yes I would take the socketbonus, if ts not just a bit of mastery.
Just set your priorities and stick to them. I go with Spirit > haste > Int,
Tha means 320 spirit in blue, 160 spi/haste in yellow, 80 int/160 spi in red.
You could just aswell go haste as your main stat:
320 haste in yellow, 160 haste/spi in blue, 80int/160haste in red.

I recommend you to gem haste rather than crit, because you can take care of to much haste by regorging into crit after reaching a breakpoint. (If you dont have enough haste, youll have to regem)

[Loucy]

Yes I would take the socketbonus, if ts not just a bit of mastery.
Just set your priorities and stick to them. I go with Spirit > haste > Int,
Tha means 320 spirit in blue, 160 spi/haste in yellow, 80 int/160 spi in red.
You could just aswell go haste as your main stat:
320 haste in yellow, 160 haste/spi in blue, 80int/160haste in red.

I recommend you to gem haste rather than crit, because you can take care of to much haste by regorging into crit after reaching a breakpoint. (If you dont have enough haste, youll have to regem)

You can easily reach the breakpoints at the right gear levels, gemming haste is a big no no as you can use better gems such as 160 crit + 80 int and such. Or spirit + intellect.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

You can easily reach the breakpoints at the right gear levels, gemming haste is a big no no as you can use better gems such as 160 crit + 80 int and such. Or spirit + intellect.

You dont get the point. You can reforge excess haste to crit.
So you can gem haste, and reforge it to crit, so you end up with the same amount as if gemming crit directly.
But when you gem crit, and land slightly under a hastebreakpoint after reforgeing, you'll have to regem.
(You never have to regem if you gem haste, as you can reforge)

[Lumiair]

No, Lousy is correct. If you're having to gem for haste cause you can't reach the breakpoint in current gear, than you probably shouldn't be going for it yet. It's sacrificing too many other beneficial stats. And then

You could just aswell go haste as your main stat:

Is horribly HORRIBLY wrong, don't even tell people that! Any point in haste after you hit the 4718 breakpoint lowers the duration of Renewing Mist, while not giving it another tick until the next breakpoint. So you end up with a smaller window to use Thunder Focus Tea. The Mistweaver sticky goes into great depth on this, and not trying to be rude but maybe you should read it before giving advice. . .

[Ogait]

Yes I would take the socketbonus, if ts not just a bit of mastery.
Just set your priorities and stick to them. I go with Spirit > haste > Int,
Tha means 320 spirit in blue, 160 spi/haste in yellow, 80 int/160 spi in red.
You could just aswell go haste as your main stat:
320 haste in yellow, 160 haste/spi in blue, 80int/160haste in red.

I recommend you to gem haste rather than crit, because you can take care of to much haste by regorging into crit after reaching a breakpoint. (If you dont have enough haste, youll have to regem)

When this tier started, I had 4k more spirit than I do now and I regemmed my entire gear so I could fit Intelect instead of Spirit, so I think you don't need to gem with spirit. Like someone said, if you're going OOM with this class, you're not playing it properly at this tier...

This is what I did back when the patch was launched:
- Blue Gems: 80 Intellect + 160 Spirit
- Yellow Gems: 80 Intellect + 160 Crit
- Red Gems: 160 Intellect

Also, never gem for haste.

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[Dreyo]

Also, never gem for haste.

I'm not sure you can make it this simple. If you're ever reforging to meet a haste breakpoint, what's the difference between gemming crit and gemming haste?

The major decision point is whether you want to gem Int or gem a secondary. The secondaries themselves are largely fungible.

[Luneward]

I'm not sure you can make it this simple. If you're ever reforging to meet a haste breakpoint, what's the difference between gemming crit and gemming haste?

The major decision point is whether you want to gem Int or gem a secondary. The secondaries themselves are largely fungible.

The difference? It's much easier to fix a reforge than it is to replace a gem. Unless the haste gems are extremely cheap in comparison to a reforge, it's easier and cheaper just to use crit gems.

[Masoa]

The amount of spirit you want is going to go hand in hand with what kind of regen trinkets. For example in my case I have the relic and the lfr spirits. With this setup I need 10k spirit to have enough mana for the entire fight. Once you get better trinkets however you can tone back your spirit. With 522 trinkets I have seen monks report good results with as little as 8k spirit.

[DirewolfX]

The difference? It's much easier to fix a reforge than it is to replace a gem. Unless the haste gems are extremely cheap in comparison to a reforge, it's easier and cheaper just to use crit gems.

You can reforge either way, so it doesn't matter if you use crit gems or haste gems, just reforge to the breakpoint.

[Chuupag]

The major decision point is whether you want to gem Int or gem a secondary. The secondaries themselves are largely fungible.

Gonna agree here, with a caveat. Think it's been discussed in several of the other threads that 2 crit/haste is better than 1 int for just about all of our spells. I only gem half int gems in red sockets for the socket bonus.

But basically yes haste and crit are interchangeable...doesn't matter if it's a gem or a reforge. Don't know why some people are all omgnevergemhaste.

[DirewolfX]

Gonna agree here, with a caveat. Think it's been discussed in several of the other threads that 2 crit/haste is better than 1 int for just about all of our spells. I only gem half int gems in red sockets for the socket bonus.

But basically yes haste and crit are interchangeable...doesn't matter if it's a gem or a reforge. Don't know why some people are all omgnevergemhaste.

That's going to depend on your current stats.

[Chuupag]

That's going to depend on your current stats.

Not really...it's more of a question of scaling. It takes roughly 10000 spell power to double the size of a heal from the base amount. 1 crit would give you a .0016% chance of doing the same. Math aside, for most spells it's very close to 2:1 value, but it's generally better to go secondary stats.

[Hottie4Hire]

Whether you gem haste or crit is obviously going to depend on your gear. I don't know why you guys are arguing about that. You hit the haste cap, and then go for crit. It makes literally no difference at all how to get there.

My question is whether 2 crit is better than 1 int. Is it? One person said it's not and one said it is.

[Astraios]

Not really...it's more of a question of scaling. It takes roughly 10000 spell power to double the size of a heal from the base amount. 1 crit would give you a .0016% chance of doing the same. Math aside, for most spells it's very close to 2:1 value, but it's generally better to go secondary stats.

Actually, as reglitch pointed out at the very first response to the thread, intellect is indeed king at most levels of gear. There are a few exceptions depending on if you drop your crit to extremely low levels to hit haste breakpoints, but in most cases int wins.

[Chuupag]

Alright I may have had my 10000 sp number a bit off, I got it from a guy comparing healing classes but his specialty was druid. Let's look at the top heals two heals for us...Renewing Mist and Uplift.

Renewing Mist: You surround the target with healing mists, restoring 174 (+ 10.7% of SpellPower) health every 2 sec for 18 sec.

So from this you can see it would take 1626 spell power to double the base heal. Each point of crit gives each a .0016% chance to crit, and at the base value that would give crit an estimated value of .278 health per point, meaning it would take 626 points of crit to give the same amount of healing as 1626 spell power.

Uplift: Heals all targets with your Renewing Mist active for 2144 to 2491 (+ 68% of SpellPower)

From this you can see it would take 3408 spell power to double the heal. Using the same math as above gives crit an estimated value of 3.7 health per point, meaning 626 crit to equal the same healing as 3408 spell power.


As some have pointed out some level of increasing item budgets to affect these numbers. Crit however gets stronger as you get more intellect. Getting 1000 int will always give your uplift 680 more healing. 1000 crit will give you 2x your current uplifts an extra 1.6% of the time.

[DirewolfX]

Not really...it's more of a question of scaling. It takes roughly 10000 spell power to double the size of a heal from the base amount. 1 crit would give you a .0016% chance of doing the same. Math aside, for most spells it's very close to 2:1 value, but it's generally better to go secondary stats.

Again, it depends on stats. I made a simple spreadsheet to compare +1 int vs. +2 crit for Uplift on 5, 6 and 7 targets. You can take a look here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...T1JaTFE#gid=10
(Ignore the other sheets, this is my miscellaneous workbook).

At 35,000 spell power (roughly what I have now) and 20% crit (a bit below what I have now), +1 int is a bit better than +2 crit. I'd have to lower my crit to around 5% to make 2 crit better than 1 int. And I didn't even include the miniscule crit bonus from int, which would sway the numbers more in favor of int.

On the other hand, if I were to increase my spellpower to 45,000 without increasing crit, +2 crit would become the clear winner.

Let me know if you want me to do the math on some other spells or to put stats closer to what you have in there, but you can also easily plug your own characters into Reglitch's spreadsheet and check the more thorough stat weightings there.

[Hottie4Hire]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but why is the value of crit not static? It seems to me it will give you the same percentage increase in healing per point regardless of how much you have.

Then again, that means the value of spellpower will be different even though it should be static as well. Is this just a matter of perspective then? Theoretically, I can only envision one spellpower increasing your spells by the exact same number regardless of how much you have. Its value should never change. Crits value should increase then.

I think I just solved my own question.

[DirewolfX]

As some have pointed out some level of increasing item budgets to affect these numbers. Crit however gets stronger as you get more intellect. Getting 1000 int will always give your uplift 680 more healing. 1000 crit will give you 2x your current uplifts an extra 1.6% of the time.

Ah, here's where you're miscalculating. 1000 int will not always give your uplift 680 healing. If that Uplift crits, your 1000 int just gave it 1360 healing. So as your crit chance goes up, the value of intellect goes up. You need to compare the values of increasing crit or intellect at reasonable gear levels.

All four of our throughput stats (int, haste, crit, mastery) multiply with each other, making the value of each go up as the other three rise. The coefficients on mastery are just so low right now, it's not worth it at current levels of gear. Let's ignore haste for now, because the haste/crit debate is a tinderbox and working with just two variables is easier to understand.

If I have 30,000 spell power, Renewing Mist will heal for (174 + 10.7%*30000)*1.2 = (174 + 3210)*1.2 = 4061. If you have 20% crit, the average heal will do 4061 * 1.2 = 4873.

If we add 100 intellect or 110.25 spellpower:
(174 + 10.7%*30110.25)*1.2 = 4075; with 20% crit, average heal will be: 4890.

If we add 200 crit or 0.333%:
4061 * 1.20333 = 4887.

As you can see, on average, you will heal for about 3 more healing per tick of Renewing Mist if you had 30,000 int and 20% crit and chose to take 100 int over 200 crit. Feel free to replicate the math with different values, and you'll see that as intellect goes up, the value of an additional point of crit rises (while the value of intellect remains constant). Meanwhile, if you raise crit, the value of an additional point of intellect goes up, while the value of each additional point of crit stays the same.

---------- Post added 2013-04-08 at 12:09 PM ----------

And this neglects the fact that intellect is reliable healing. When you need healing _now_, intellect is always there for you. Crit is only there about 20-25% of the time. ;-)