Raider on my team struggling, need advice...

[lordsphinx]

OK, so here’s the scoop. My 10 man raid team has been together since Ulduar, with 8 original members since then. We are by no means hardcore (6/12 currently, 16/16N last tier), but we still want to kill bosses in a reasonable amount of time. Our real focus is to make sure that raiding is fun, and we really do enjoy each others’ company.

I have 1 raider who has been on the team since the beginning who is struggling very hard with her DPS. She has always been adequate (within ~10% of the top), but this tier has been very different. We’ve identified that she really cannot maintain her DPS while moving at all, and it is becoming VERY noticeable this tier with all of the heavy movement fights. Last night I had an unusual raid comp for our group, and we had 3 melee DPS. The two ranged were myself (spriest) and her (destro ‘lock). When we got to Tortos, her lack of DPS actually prevented us from getting the kill. I was averaging about 110Kish (I know, not top parse material), and she was down around 60K. As far as I’m concerned, this is not acceptable.

So here comes my question… I’m really torn between replacing her to progress faster or trying to work with her and getting the rest of the group frustrated. I received whispers from 4 people last night pointing out the fact that her DPS was shit, and I know that if I don’t do anything about it I’m going to have to start answering for her and potentially losing other raiders. The predicament is that she’s been a strong raider for years with amazing attendance and an awesome attitude, and I feel like she deserves more than a boot in the ass and a “have a nice day”.

If you put yourself in my shoes, how would you handle the situation?

[Troolari]

Talk with her, tell her to up her performance or face getting benched. Nothing more to it. You could go through her rotations with her to see if she is doing it right and so on, but that might not be the problem if the problem is with movement and DPS:ing meanwhile. If half your group think that you're better when she is benched, you really should do it. Much less guild drama than when 4 people quit the guild cause they wanna progress without anyone holding them back. Trust me, I speak from experience on this one.

Hope she is not a girlfriend of any of your raiders, that might make it really difficult!

[pld]

You can always go to the Warlock sub-forum with WoL parses and get some advice on how she can improve her dps. From what I understand, warlocks have a tricky rotation and not performing it properly can significantly impact DPS.

I would also make sure you speak with her and discuss what the issue may be. We found that one of our raiders was having serious latency issues, which caused her numbers to be lower than we expected. Perhaps she just needs a refresher on rotation/stat priority/etc. Regardless, find out what the issue is (if there are any) and make sure her confidence isn't crushed. I'm sure she sees the numbers and probably feels guilty and defensive.

If after all that, she continues to underperform, I would consider benching her for someone who can carry their weight in DPS. Even though she has history with the guild, that's no reason to waste the time of 9 other raiders because she's not performing up to par. Bring her to "farm status" raids/bosses but ask her to sit out for progression. Make sure she doesn't feel excommunicated and let her know that once she gets her DPS up, she'll be considered for progression bosses.

[Gandrake]

Let them know that their performance is an issue, clarify your goals as a guild and and that the raid group is a group effort, and tell them that you're going to have to start looking for a replacement if they cannot pick it up.

[Najja]

She needs to either practice DPSing on the move somehow or is there another lock spec that is more movement friendly that she could use if this ones not working for her?

[clevin]

My 10 man raid team has been together since Ulduar, with 8 original members since then...Our real focus is to make sure that raiding is fun, and we really do enjoy each others’ company.

I have 1 raider who has been on the team since the beginning who is struggling very hard with her DPS ... When we got to Tortos, her lack of DPS actually prevented us from getting the kill. I was averaging about 110Kish (I know, not top parse material), and she was down around 60K. As far as I’m concerned, this is not acceptable.

So here comes my question… I’m really torn between replacing her to progress faster or trying to work with her and getting the rest of the group frustrated. I received whispers from 4 people last night pointing out the fact that her DPS was shit, and I know that if I don’t do anything about it

So.... the raid team has been toegther, more or less unchanged, for the better part of 5 years and you still have backbiting going on? You can't talk to your raiders when there's an issue? Do you guys not post WoL logs on a forum and discuss them?

Four people whining behind someone's back is a problem. If this was just that fight, eh. If it's an issue in the tier, ADDRESS IT. Talk to the lock. See how she feels, work with her to figure out resources etc.

But I'm sorry, something's fucked up here. There's no way I'd be chomping at the bit to kick someone who's been in my raid team since Ulduar because of a few weeks of struggling nor would any people with whom I'd want to raid. Does she need to pick things up? Apparently so. But do you cave to some whining without even talking to her and giving her a chance? Not if you have a spine. Oh, your raiders will jump ship? These are the same raiders who've been with you for four years? And all of a sudden they've a foot out the door? Sorry, but there's no way a happy, cohesive raid team of four years' standing is going to be on the verge of falling apart because one person has underperformed for a few weeks. Something else is going on here.

On the lock... look at the lock class forum and ask there. It might be that another spec like Affliction with its multidotting would be better here. See what other locks in her gear range are doing - both what DPS they're doing and how they're speccing and what stats they're running.

As for the whiners, tell them you're dealing with it and to be patient and if they bitch more ask them if they'd like to be kicked without a chance if it were them.

[Squirl]

She should run Kil'jaeden's Cunning on the majority of the fights this tier. If she is running that and is still having problems, it sounds like she's a clicker. Consider binding at least all rotational abilities and look into peripherals such as the Razer Naga and Razer Orbweaver or Nostromo.

If that is not an issue, ask if she's using any important buff/debuff timer addons. Movement may be distracting her from the (terrible) default timers. You can pick up a WeakAuras import really easily.

[sysco]

I also doubt it was just her issue that the fight wasnt dying. Melee can dps the turtle shells just as well they do have a huge range especially if you slow them. Like previous people have said you should at least run logs so people can try to help. I know i just wouldnt boot a raider thats always on time for over 4 years especially if they are receptive to feedback

[lordsphinx]

I'm sure there were more issues to why the fight wasn't going well, but having a total of 170K on the turtles made it very rough. We more or less were barely getting the third turtle down before the next ones spawned. That makes for more running, more getting knocked back and interrupted, tougher healing, etc etc etc. While we have killed the boss before, we do not have it on farm by any means. I'm sure others were making errors too.

This is a good point, and I'll have to look at the logs to see what else can improve.

Thank yuo everyone for your advice. I think it's time to sit and talk with her to see if we can find a fix.

[Shadee]

I would gkick him immediately

[NatePsy]

If there's movement fights, ask whether or not she keybinds, clicking tends to damage one's dps alot when there's heavy movement involved. I know this because I used to click but then I started to keybind and since then movement fights have been my ally.

[Forgettable]

Have her respec affliction for Tortos then. Just DOT everything and win. Problem solved.

[rated]

Help her get better and give her the chance to show that she's improved. If she still fails you got to replace her.

[Rotted]

Really it should be her here asking tbh,

But, if you've been raiding since uld and shes an original member, then shes a friend, and you said so yourself the point of raiding to your team is to have fun, if you suddenly bench someone for not being good enough for a raid about fun, then your going to get hit left right and center

[clevin]

Have her respec affliction for Tortos then. Just DOT everything and win. Problem solved.

Clicking vs keybinding could be the issue, so could missing timers in the midst of all the movement. To Forgettable's point, everyone has two specs available. Use them. I know our spriest kicks ass on multi target fights MUCH more so than single target fights because he can dot things up. On Tortos, even dotting all the turtles and aoeing the bats will be a help.

BTW, don't walk in there with a melee heavy comp and then complain about one person. Three melee DPS isn't optimal for that fight and if they have a powerful cleave they can sit on bats/Tortos and shine on the meters... but not be helping with the actual mechanics that get a kill. I LFRed that last night on my hunter and lost the meters to another SV hunter... but all he did was AoE the bats and Tortos. I dotted the turtles and focused them down. Which of us contributed more to the kill?

[Shockzilla]

So.... the raid team has been toegther, more or less unchanged, for the better part of 5 years and you still have backbiting going on? You can't talk to your raiders when there's an issue? Do you guys not post WoL logs on a forum and discuss them?

Four people whining behind someone's back is a problem. If this was just that fight, eh. If it's an issue in the tier, ADDRESS IT. Talk to the lock. See how she feels, work with her to figure out resources etc.

But I'm sorry, something's fucked up here. There's no way I'd be chomping at the bit to kick someone who's been in my raid team since Ulduar because of a few weeks of struggling nor would any people with whom I'd want to raid. Does she need to pick things up? Apparently so. But do you cave to some whining without even talking to her and giving her a chance? Not if you have a spine. Oh, your raiders will jump ship? These are the same raiders who've been with you for four years? And all of a sudden they've a foot out the door? Sorry, but there's no way a happy, cohesive raid team of four years' standing is going to be on the verge of falling apart because one person has underperformed for a few weeks. Something else is going on here.

On the lock... look at the lock class forum and ask there. It might be that another spec like Affliction with its multidotting would be better here. See what other locks in her gear range are doing - both what DPS they're doing and how they're speccing and what stats they're running.

As for the whiners, tell them you're dealing with it and to be patient and if they bitch more ask them if they'd like to be kicked without a chance if it were them.

wow, started to write a reply and read this, I couldn't agree more with what you said.

[rated]

Really it should be her here asking tbh,

But, if you've been raiding since uld and shes an original member, then shes a friend, and you said so yourself the point of raiding to your team is to have fun, if you suddenly bench someone for not being good enough for a raid about fun, then your going to get hit left right and center

I don't know about that, it's a fine line you're walking here. I prefer to raid with friends, people I like etc, but wiping excessively on a boss you know you should be killing or having people constantly wipe the raid to stupid stuff is also frustrating and not fun either. Where do you draw the line ? Truthfully though that friend under performing should be the one to step up and say replace me until I get better.

I LFRed that last night on my hunter and lost the meters to another SV hunter... but all he did was AoE the bats and Tortos. I dotted the turtles and focused them down. Which of us contributed more to the kill?

In that situation ? Both of you with a slight edge to the LFR hunter. Tortos is a joke on LFR because it's not the turtles or stone breath that wipes the raid, it's bats. Always the bats. Stone breath ticks for 15k so the turtles are really not used for interrupting, but for 25% damage buffs to kill the bats and the boss quicker.

He contributed more to killing the most threatening mechanic in the raid and getting the fight over with sooner and you contributed to keeping turtles up to give damage buffs to the raid and making it less chaotic.

[Kiry]

In addition, if you are running melee heavy, you'll want to start thinking creatively about how to manage some of the fights as such. It's not just the lock that could be holding things back, it could be the "here's my team" how do I make this work with what I have?

Trust me, you'll be having a lot more fun on Iron Qon with a melee heavy team.

[lordsphinx]

In addition, if you are running melee heavy, you'll want to start thinking creatively about how to manage some of the fights as such. It's not just the lock that could be holding things back, it could be the "here's my team" how do I make this work with what I have?

Trust me, you'll be having a lot more fun on Iron Qon with a melee heavy team.

We normally have 3 ranged, 2 melee. Last night we were short one, and the only person I could find to come in was a melee. My server is pretty low on excess raiders, so finding someone over ilvl 480 who can come in is pretty rare. I normally don't have this problem, just last night was a fluke.

[BLSTMASTER]

It could be an issue of 'multitasking'.

If she has to think too hard about her dps rotation, then she may struggle in fights where she needs to be aware of a lot of things.
Its hard to explain, but the more you have to think about the fight, the less 'thought' she can afford on keeping her dps.

Ideally what you'd want is someone that knows their dps very well (like the back of their hands) that they only need a few visual/audio ques that let them play close to optimal. For these people, they don't have to think too hard about their rotation so almost all their attention can go to surviving/doing mechanics while maintaining some dps.


If you could, try helping her set up her UI so the informations she need are presented in a more obvious/neat manner. (If thats something she is having trouble with).

If she isn't keybinding, then that could be an issue as well. but it will be VERY hard to get used to her new setup.


now, for the issue at hand (replacing or keeping). I'd suggest giving it another week or two (since you just asked this question on the forums) and see if she improves, given all the suggestions in this thread.

Like you said, your group is aiming for fun and if her presence is 'getting in the way' of other people's fun, then its unfortunate but she has to go.