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  1. #241
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    You are right, loads of players aren't doing "all they could."

    They won't do "all they could", ever.

    The point is that if that is what the playerbase is like and you want them to clear content, it has to be designed to take the way they are into account.
    No.
    You got LFR to play with if you don't want to play to the fullest.
    Otherwise, with the direction we are taking atm :

    Everyone (absolutely everyone) can clear normal (thats what you want right ?)
    Average guilds get into HCs. What happens then ? We have the same conversation about HCs ?

    Raids are not for everyone. Its the pinnacle of WoW.
    they introduced LFR for people who couldnt do normals but wanted to see the content. Do that, and go do quests and rep, and then maybe, if you commit enough effort (over 2-5 hours per week roughly), you can do normals.

  2. #242
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    No.
    You got LFR to play with if you don't want to play to the fullest.
    Otherwise, with the direction we are taking atm :

    Everyone (absolutely everyone) can clear normal (thats what you want right ?)
    Average guilds get into HCs. What happens then ? We have the same conversation about HCs ?

    Raids are not for everyone. Its the pinnacle of WoW.
    Well yeah, that's the point.

    Normal Raids currently aren't for everyone. They used to be and they should be again.

  3. #243
    These nerfs were inevitable imo. Look at how many guilds were stuck on the first 4 bosses. Couple with the sheer amount of trash and the number of bosses, looking at the numbers Blizz probably realized these guys were never going to see the last bosses of the tier on normal and this goes against most of what they said they wanted to happen. Last tier when people complained about stuff like Elegon and Garalon, they even said that gear upgrade system was there to help specifically this and that eventually it'd give people the tiny push to succeed each week ... this tier we don't have that so nerfs are going to happen if people begin brickwalling a lot.

  4. #244
    Raids are about having something to do in WoW. LFR is not a social experience, really--it is practically an anti-social experience or one which will tend to make you hate strangers. Normal mode raids are about bringing friends together to do content. This requires Blizzard design encounters not for the brain dead--these people have vent--but that are generally tuned pretty low for the first several bosses.

    Here's the key point: normal mode raids just don't kick people. In fact, they carry friends. Blizzard has got to realize that so they need to design less coordination-intense encounters early. Horridon would have driven me crazy as an eighth boss but thoughts about quitting would have never, ever occurred to me. Horridon was... Crazy for us. We have 3 kills, 114 wipes. We got to council, tried a new strategy, and immediately got Sul down and almost won. Our problems were probably all tank related or comp related... But of course we aren't great either. We'll probably make very steady progress now.

    They implied this tier would be easier because of less intense dps checks and then completely raised the coordination bar. I don't really know what they were thinking. These nerfs were needed much, much sooner (Horridon should have been nerfed again weeks ago, council perhaps a week or two).

  5. #245
    The really interesting bit here is that they just nerfed 10m.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasya111 View Post
    Well, since im not good at english, sometimes im too lazy to formulate what i exactly want to say, if i already know how to formulate something that is pretty close to that. Sorry.
    Fair enough :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasya111 View Post
    If that nerf will help you, than perhaps you are right. If you'll still fail and blizzard wont nerf content more, than you perhaps are too bad for normals. I cant actually say where are you between bad and average with the info provided.
    Yup, I agree with you. In fact, almost by definition - if we're STILL stuck, and Blizzard don't nerf them further, then I'll obviously be wrong about us being the target audience for normals. I don't think we'll still be stuck, though, these nerfs seem about right to me and I'm confident we'll progress.

  7. #247
    Most of the really casual and also not very good guilds are 10-mans because they can't be bothered with the effort of herding 25 cats so it makes sense they'd nerf 10-man for them to progress a bit more. You'll notice in actual progression raiding (Heroics) 10-man is unchanged.

    They'll just hit the next wall and keep complaining about it though.
    Last edited by Nitros14; 2013-04-11 at 04:37 PM.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Meleti View Post
    The really interesting bit here is that they just nerfed 10m.
    Not really surprising since most guilds are 10m and most guilds who would be stuck on these bosses are the casual 10m variety.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captaincrab View Post
    Garalon if you go in with inexperience or vastly undergeared players trying to catch up on gear was just one of those where you either 3 healed comfortably and prayed to god your 5 dps knew how to dish out the damage while dealing with all the other things going on... Or 2 healed hectically. 12 minute enrage just means if you can manage the mechanics properly you'll just wipe if you are really really slow and fill out the room with pheromones.

    As for the Shell speed... It is far far far far... more likely you'll have a good snare source (like a Warlock) on 25 man than it is on ten man. Also far more likely you'll have a good mix of dps and dps spread all across the room to get the kicks on 25 than it is on 10.
    Blizzard said some time ago that Garalon was probably tuned a little too tight because you had mechanics and a hard dps check. I know for us since we just started raiding about a month ago if the kiters lagged at all it would be a wipe with 2 healers. With 3 healers we were hitting enrage between 3-10%. Even 1 extra minute would have fixed it for us.

  10. #250
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Well yeah, that's the point.

    Normal Raids currently aren't for everyone. They used to be and they should be again.
    Again, no.
    Raids have never been for everyone to go in with welfare epics and beat the content from A to Z. Maybe first 4 bosses, like it is now, but not more.

    Ulduar, average guilds wouldnt get past keepers like Freya, Thorim, Mirmiron
    ToC, average guilds wouldnt get past faction champs.
    ICC, average guilds would kinda stop after saurfang.
    Cata, average guilds wouldn't get past (boss that brings you to 1HP ...) and atramedes. Valiona and Theralion + Twins was also a big cockblock.
    Firelands, average guilds wouldn't get past , well thats a bit more debatable but say the driving boss?
    DS, average guilds wouldn't ... well the gradual nerfs helped a lot so thats hard to appraise, but pre nerfs Zonozz was a massdive cockblock, let alone the color selection on Yorsahj

    So yeah, erm, no. You always got the first 4 bosses for free really.
    Now they are still free, but since raiders have become a lot more lazy in their gearing and catchup mechanics... it's becoming an artificial problem. People going in there under 500 ilvl and going all Francis on us.

    Mark my words, once these bad guilds who couldn't beat horridon have beaten the first 4, they are going to cry for nerfs on the next 4. And so on.
    Last edited by mmoc8ee790e781; 2013-04-11 at 04:41 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    No.
    You got LFR to play with if you don't want to play to the fullest.
    Otherwise, with the direction we are taking atm :

    Everyone (absolutely everyone) can clear normal (thats what you want right ?)
    Average guilds get into HCs. What happens then ? We have the same conversation about HCs ?

    Raids are not for everyone. Its the pinnacle of WoW.
    they introduced LFR for people who couldnt do normals but wanted to see the content. Do that, and go do quests and rep, and then maybe, if you commit enough effort (over 2-5 hours per week roughly), you can do normals.
    You're showing yourself to be exactly the person I was trying to explain things to in my original post. Go and re-read it. I'm NOT saying that everyone should be able to clear normal modes, but I'm saying that Blizzard's target audience for normal modes is not who you think it is. HC raiding is the pinnacle of WOW. Normals are not. LFR is NOT the solution for guilds like mine, and Blizz know that - that's why they just nerfed normals.

    Why do YOU think we just got these nerfs? What do you think Blizzard's thought process was?

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I am sure that it was blizzards design and intention that people sit in T14 til the cows come home before going onto Tot.

    Which is a bit daft, because theres no chance. It's almost as if they refuse to accomodate their own players for some reason.....
    It's an echo of what they tried in Cataclysm: the lesser players were to do T11 after T12 came out, and T11 normal got a blanket 20% nerf.

    That didn't work. Asking people to do T14 now doesn't work either.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    I may have to call you at fault as well. While there is a big difference, it is worth noting many of the Jin'rokh kills are from groups that didn't even have an intention of progressing on Horridon. There are also other factors to consider.
    I never talked about GROUPS killing Jin'rokh, i talked about GUILDS. For a kill to be achieved by a guild you need 8/10 members of the group to belong to the guild. That is not a PUG and if they dont have the intention to go to Horridon is because they already went and they know it was way too difficult for them.

  14. #254
    Deleted
    Since our guild sparked some discussion earlier, Ill poke in.
    Quote Originally Posted by noskillz View Post
    People from Envy, Apex and who knows which other high end guild, raiding "for fun" in the weekends on their alts with people who "retired" from hardcore raiding... That's not my standard semi-casual guild.
    And look at their progress, they didn't even bother to try the hardest bosses of the tier, they got the easy kills because they don't have time to waste on trying hard bosses while undergeared, and already know what to do to avoid that.
    On the first point, I wouldnt really call Group Therapy a semi-casual guild in any way. You are expected to have exceptional performance and attendance, only thing different from normal hardcore guilds are the raid times. Just because we raid a bit less than most other guilds, doesnt mean that the attitude during raid is very casual.
    And while we have a few members from top guilds with alts yes, clear majority doesnt. The guild just provides very niche raid schedule that works for some.

    As far as progress goes, should we intentionally skip the early, easier bosses and just straight go to dark animus or something? Saying that "we havent tried" the later bosses is quite silly since we havent even killed the previous bosses as far as progression goes. And yes, current wowprogress page looks a bit silly because of 10man alt raid (and us wiping to 2% on council last reset).

    /advertisement over

  15. #255
    It's funny how people are complaining about ToT difficulty, yet more guilds killed lei-shen on normal already (% wise) then the number of guilds that killed LK even after the 30% buff.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Well, they make content, they want you to play it.
    Not do 2 bosses, then give up, and expect to faceroll the next tier ...

    This is the intent with faster patches as well - you now have more content than before (you currently have 4 raids !!) but you are simply saying 'i dont wanna do old raids because they are old'.
    In that case, they could have released 5.2 raids in September 2013 .... But all the people who HAVE already clearled content would be pissed.
    This is the best solution : people can catch up, others can progress.
    Before, you'd have the people who cleared tghe content just stop playing for 5 months until the new raid came out ...
    People didnt give up after two bosses.

    People kept trying, which is clearly indicated by the fact that after 5.2 introduced the 10% nerf, the guilds killing empress clinbed from 13k to 18k, which is about a 50% increase.

    Those 5k GUILDS kept trying during the whole tier and just couldnt kill it. And there are still people trying in the previous bosses.

    You seem to think that anyone who hasnt completed Tier 14 was because they didnt tried, when the afct is that they tried, failed, kept trying and kept failing, for months, even with item upgrades "nerfing" the content for them, which is WRONG.

    And this happened because HoF was overtuned for normal raiders.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's an echo of what they tried in Cataclysm: the lesser players were to do T11 after T12 came out, and T11 normal got a blanket 20% nerf.

    That didn't work. Asking people to do T14 now doesn't work either.
    It worked in vanilla. New guilds started in Molten Core/Zul'Gurub and worked their way through Blackwing Lair and Ahn'qiraj as they geared up. That's what happened with my guild, we formed while Ahn'qiraj was out, killed Ragnaros, got Nefarian down about by Naxxramas' release and made it to C'thun and a few Naxxramas bosses when Burning Crusade dropped.

    I had a similar experience in Burning Crusade. You saw the beginnings of this new system that accidently erased feelings of progression in the Zul'aman patch that removed attunements for Hyjal/Black Temple and Wrath really put it into full swing.

  18. #258
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Again, no.
    Raids have never been for everyone to go in with welfare epics and beat the content from A to Z. Maybe first 4 bosses, like it is now, but not more.

    Ulduar, average guilds wouldnt get past keepers like Freya, Thorim, Mirmiron
    ToC, average guilds wouldnt get past faction champs.
    ICC, average guilds would kinda stop after saurfang.
    Cata, average guilds wouldn't get past (boss that brings you to 1HP ...) and atramedes.
    Firelands, average guilds wouldn't get past , well thats a bit more debatable but say the driving boss?
    DS, average guilds wouldn't ... well the gradual nerfs helped a lot so thats hard to appraise, but pre nerfs Zonozz was a massdive cockblock, let alone the color selection on Yorsahj

    So yeah, erm, no.

    Mark my words, once these bad guilds who couldn't beat horridon have beaten the first 4, they are going to cry for nerfs on the next 4. And so on.
    Notice that average guilds didn't used to be able to get past boss 4-7 of an instance, back in the exclusive days.

    Not boss 2. ;p

    But that's all moot - because of ICC (stacking debuff, everyone gets to the end) and DS (stacking debuff, everyone gets to the end) I said that the average guild should be clearing the tier before it was over. This was the case in ICC, DS, FL etc

  19. #259
    Well, my guild cleared Horridon and Council and Tortos all earlier in the tier. We're a pretty casual 10m guild with 6 raiding hours a week, and we move along at a fair clip.

    We've already done our progression on those bosses, what do I care that they're easier now? Other guilds will be able to get a little bit farther, have a little more fun, and feel like they're making progress again, and its not like that hurts us any, or diminishes our work. Stagnation is the guild killer to end all guild killers, so these sorts of nerfs are very, very healthy for smaller, more casual guilds.

    Now our farm bosses will be a little easier to clear, and that'll buy us a little more time to work on progression bosses, and make it less of a fight to get undergeared off-raiders in on farm bosses so that we can hang with our friends who aren't around as consistently.

    I really don't see how this negatively impacts anyone. Either you've already downed it and the nerfs only make farming easier, you're already working on Heroic modes so it doesn't affect you at all, or you're moving slowly and your guild can find progression a little easier.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    It's funny how people are complaining about ToT difficulty, yet more guilds killed lei-shen on normal already (% wise) then the number of guilds that killed LK even after the 30% buff.
    LK was also overtuned. I've pointed that out for years. For all its supposed facerollness, most people who raided in Wrath couldn't finish it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It worked in vanilla.
    No, it didn't. Only a small number raided, and only a vanishly small number made it to the end of the raids.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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