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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    No.
    You got LFR to play with if you don't want to play to the fullest.
    Otherwise, with the direction we are taking atm :

    Everyone (absolutely everyone) can clear normal (thats what you want right ?)
    Average guilds get into HCs. What happens then ? We have the same conversation about HCs ?

    Raids are not for everyone. Its the pinnacle of WoW.
    they introduced LFR for people who couldnt do normals but wanted to see the content. Do that, and go do quests and rep, and then maybe, if you commit enough effort (over 2-5 hours per week roughly), you can do normals.

    Yes raids are the pinnacle of WoW but then the real pinnacle is heroic modes. Normal modes should be tuned for normal raiders not the pinnacle and if 50% of guilds are still on the first 4 bosses then that is the level of normal raiders. I just don't understand the rationale that less people should raid. The more raiders the more Blizzard can justify spending on raids and everybody wins.

  2. #262
    Legendary! MasterHamster's Avatar
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    Why is anyone surprised? Blizzard will nerf that which is overtuned, regardless whether the top-realm guilds think it's needed or not.

    Most guilds probably needed these nerfs in some way.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
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  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    But how can you say that when the majority of guilds are still on the first 4 bosses and by definition are threfore average.
    Only heroic level raiders have killed the first 4 bosses. But this guy seems to think Normal raids should be tuned for heroic raiders, not normal.

    Anyone that ahs already killed the 4 first bosses will have at least half the bosses killed in Heroic before the next tier. Because they are heroic raiders, not normal.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    LK was also overtuned. I've pointed that out for years. For all its supposed facerollness, most people who raided in Wrath couldn't finish it.
    So basically every boss that doesn't roll over and die is overtuned ? And if not, do tell the % of the people who killed the first boss, who should kill the final boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Only heroic level raiders have killed the first 4 bosses. But this guy seems to think Normal raids should be tuned for heroic raiders, not normal.

    Anyone that ahs already killed the 4 first bosses will have at least half the bosses killed in Heroic before the next tier. Because they are heroic raiders, not normal.
    Not a heroic raider and yet i killed 7 boss so far ? Did i break the matrix ? None of the bosses as that impossibly soul crushing and they're made out to be.

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    LK was also overtuned. I've pointed that out for years. For all its supposed facerollness, most people who raided in Wrath couldn't finish it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 04:45 PM ----------



    No, it didn't. Only a small number raided, and only a vanishly small number made it to the end of the raids.

    But we have LFR now. If people want to see the content they can do that. Why is it absolutely necessary that everyone finish a harder version of the same boss? That just erodes any sense of accomplishment people might get from it.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    No.
    You got LFR to play with if you don't want to play to the fullest.
    Otherwise, with the direction we are taking atm :

    Everyone (absolutely everyone) can clear normal (thats what you want right ?)
    Average guilds get into HCs. What happens then ? We have the same conversation about HCs ?

    Raids are not for everyone. Its the pinnacle of WoW.
    they introduced LFR for people who couldnt do normals but wanted to see the content. Do that, and go do quests and rep, and then maybe, if you commit enough effort (over 2-5 hours per week roughly), you can do normals.
    "Everyone" is not attempting Normal raids, only raiders are, and as a normal distribution curve indicates, a NORMAL modes should be aimed for the amount of people in the middle os that normal distribution.

    No, not everyone should be able to clear Normal modes, but a lot more than 25% should.

  7. #267
    Deleted
    Fuck it. Nerf everything by 80% NOW.
    Then everyone will be able to do it, and no one will be able to complain they can't finish raids.

    but in 3 months we are gonna ask for more content, and Blizz is gonna reply 'sry guys, see you in 6-8 months'.

    Complaining and nerfing after 1 month and 5 days is completely ridiculous. Most of the guilds failing to kill horridon don't even farm previous tiers for gear, why should they be given the latest kills on a silver platter ?

    Really, the player level is diminishing every day. I get your points that difficulty should be tuned to the player base, and i disagree. I think it should be here to raise people's skill level, not lower itself to them.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    "Everyone" is not attempting Normal raids, only raiders are, and as a normal distribution curve indicates, a NORMAL modes should be aimed for the amount of people in the middle os that normal distribution.

    No, not everyone should be able to clear Normal modes, but a lot more than 25% should.

    It's only been a month. Do you know what would happen if more than 25% had cleared normal modes already? They'd hit an absolute wall in heroics and get bored and quit. Blizzard needs to make content last until the next raid. Check the numbers when this tier ENDS and we'll talk.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    But we have LFR now. If people want to see the content they can do that. Why is it absolutely necessary that everyone finish a harder version of the same boss? That just erodes any sense of accomplishment people might get from it.
    There is a large difficulty hole between LFR and current normal modes. Many guilds have fallen into this hole. The number of guilds that are experiencing distress (or failed) from this problem appears to be much larger than the number of guilds enjoying the highest end raid modes. They could shift the difficulty of normal and heroic raids modes down to cover the hole, but they have not. Most raiders doing normals now could shift to heroics. Only the very highest end raiders would run out of challenging content.

    I suggest that a design that stomps on lots of customers, in order to please a smaller number, is clearly and obviously a bad design.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #270
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Candiman View Post
    The more raiders the more Blizzard can justify spending on raids and everybody wins.
    this has never been the case in the history of wow. It's just wishful thinking

  11. #271
    Lol at the nerdraging because content gets nerfed. Honestly we killed these bosses before the nerfs, and now it lets us get to the later progression fights (and epic trash) that much more quicker so it's a welcome change to even those that didn't need it.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Not a heroic raider and yet i killed 7 boss so far ? Did i break the matrix ? None of the bosses as that impossibly soul crushing and they're made out to be.
    And then I look at your DK on the armory and notice you're 1/12 heroic.

  13. #273
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It's only been a month. Do you know what would happen if more than 25% had cleared normal modes already? They'd hit an absolute wall in heroics and get bored and quit. Blizzard needs to make content last until the next raid. Check the numbers when this tier ENDS and we'll talk.
    So much this. You are going to clear content and then cry there's nothing to do.

    If you are not beating the first 4 bosses normal at the moment - you are not supposed to be in ToT. Go T14 and farm gear through valor etc.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It's only been a month. Do you know what would happen if more than 25% had cleared normal modes already? They'd hit an absolute wall in heroics and get bored and quit. Blizzard needs to make content last until the next raid. Check the numbers when this tier ENDS and we'll talk.
    The problem is the percentages on wowprogress.com don't reflect the guilds that have dropped out of normal mode raiding entirely, or that never started due to their perception of how hard it would be. If raids are designed to be easier, guilds of lower and lower capability will attempt them, and the clearance % of guilds with nonzero progress will be restrained.

    If Blizzard is having a problem now, it's probably with the absolute number of guilds even attempting T15 normal bosses. The numbers appear to be down substantially past the first boss.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #275
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    So much this. You are going to clear content and then cry there's nothing to do.

    If you are not beating the first 4 bosses normal at the moment - you are not supposed to be in ToT. Go T14 and farm gear through valor etc.
    People won't do that.

    You can either whine about it or accept it. I suggest accepting it.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    Fuck it. Nerf everything by 80% NOW.
    Then everyone will be able to do it, and no one will be able to complain they can't finish raids.

    but in 3 months we are gonna ask for more content, and Blizz is gonna reply 'sry guys, see you in 6-8 months'.

    Complaining and nerfing after 1 month and 5 days is completely ridiculous. Most of the guilds failing to kill horridon don't even farm previous tiers for gear, why should they be given the latest kills on a silver platter ?

    Really, the player level is diminishing every day. I get your points that difficulty should be tuned to the player base, and i disagree. I think it should be here to raise people's skill level, not lower itself to them.
    Ah yes nothing like a bit of exageration to get your point across. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that everyone should be able to clear normal modes. Your average raider in your average raid guild should be able to progress through the tier and be close to finishing it by the time the next tier comes along.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I suggest that a design that stomps on lots of customers, in order to please a smaller number, is clearly and obviously a bad design.
    It doesn't stomp on a lot of customers. These normal modes need to last until the next raid six months down the line. On the current normal modes your average guild has the hope of progression provided they get a little gear and make small efforts to improve. If you turned these normal modes into loot pinatas people would just hit a hopeless wall in heroics, get bored and quit. Not good business. The current normals are hardly a wall, even hugely casual guilds can get a few bosses down already.

    You could nerf the heroics a lot too and then anyone who raids for a sense of accomplishment is probably done with WoW. I know a lot of them already abandoned the game in dragon soul. Say what you want but progressed guilds build a lot of interest in raiding and in WoW. It's not good design to kill off the upper/middle echelon of raiders.

  18. #278
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiffeltower View Post
    So much this. You are going to clear content and then cry there's nothing to do.

    If you are not beating the first 4 bosses normal at the moment - you are not supposed to be in ToT. Go T14 and farm gear through valor etc.
    Who made you god? You're just another self-absorbed little baby who can't accept that his viewpoint might not be the only valid one. If you're in heroics, why do you give a crap about the first few bosses of 10 man normal ToT? IF you're not in heroics, well, you must suck. Right?

  19. #279
    I think the real problem in this teir is that this is the second boss of the instance. If this boss was about the middle of the teir there would be no need to nerf it. This seems to be something that Blizzard is not great at this xpac. There is no difficulty curve and too mant difficult bosses too early in every teir. Stone Guard should never have been the first boss in the first instance as there were easier bosses behind it and this has been repeated in every instance so far. I personally think iof Blizzard got the difficlty curve a little better there would be no need for these nerfs.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It doesn't stomp on a lot of customers.
    I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. If you look at the data a large number of guilds have basically been told to give up on organized raiding and go to LFR.

    Now, the usual (and utterly irrelevant) elite response to that observation is that these players DESERVE to be treated this way, or even that it's better, for them, to be treated this way.

    If you turned these normal modes into loot pinatas people would just hit a hopeless wall in heroics, get bored and quit.
    That's why heroics would be tuned down at the same time. The very highest end raiders might get bored. Too bad, we'll throw a pity party for them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

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