"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
I can understand this very well cause its almost as if i saw my first kill on that boss when reading that. There is just so much shit going on everywhere in ToT even compared to previous tier :/ so much unforgiving mechanics. I understand perfeckly why unforgiving 1 shot mechanics may be good for HC raiding - but the boss kill count shows a deep fall in normal mode when u compare it to previus tier in the same time bracket that the nerfs are justified and im sure we will see some more nerfs in next few weeks - for sure on maegera :/
your wol parse shows two people died
21:56:05.567 Dhcp [21:56:02.827] Flaming Head Cinders Dhcp 136500
[21:56:03.827] Flaming Head Cinders Dhcp 97500
[21:56:04.847] Flaming Head Cinders Dhcp 82113 (O: 15387) (more)
21:58:01.596 Erexshun [21:57:59.216] Megaera Rampage Erexshun 44200
[21:57:59.996] Megaera Rampage Erexshun 75448 (A: 1902)
[21:58:01.246] Megaera Rampage Erexshun 70642 (O: 6708) (more)
you to flaming cinders and a warrior to rampage. in your wol it show you using holy prism instand of hammer of light. maybe my understand of pallies is limited but wouldn't hammer of light be more useful on this fight that prism for the rampage damage. also you stated this fight is a dps race but if thats the cause why were people 4 healing it the first week to down it?
The log is incorrect or more likely the boss died just as we ate another flaming pile of green shit on the ground. After the boss was dead we had 4 or 5 of us down. Potentially hammer is better for rampage but the entire fight isn't about rampages, in fact on my opinion rampage is the easiest part to heal. Everyone is stacked and we have cooldowns set up for that. The after rampage phase where the green shit doesn't stop is the more healing intensive and the more dps intensive really.
---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 07:28 PM ----------
Good I'm glad your done because you didn't have a fucking leg to stand on anyway. I guess every other fuckign raid who can't down that boss and is struggling and even the developer who nerfed the piss out of many of the fights is just doing it wrong. EVERYBODY ELSE IS ALWAYS DOING IT WRONG but not you. Well I've got some bad fucking news for you. their are far more people "doing it wrong" than you doing it right and I expect that we'll see more nerfs in the future because of that.
---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 07:29 PM ----------
I expect the wipe count to rise quite steadily now that they nerfed the first 4 bosses and made them CLOSER TO NORMAL. I'm not ignoring the statistic, I'm disputing the conclusions you make because of them.
---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 07:31 PM ----------
You can assume all you like I don't really care quite frankly. I don't need kids on forums telling me how to play the game when I've been able to play it adequatly and even better than adequalty in some cases for years. It's not an l2p issue, it's not a strat issue, it's a fucking shitty raid tuning issue. But you know what? keep telling good players they suck and see who you have left to raid with. This community is fucking disgusting. IT"S OVERTUNED and I don't care how good you fucking think you are or you actually are, expect more nerfs. Hell that fight nerfs itself with gear because it's a MASSIVE FUCKING GEAR CHECK.
Oh i'm sure its gonna, but people have to get past tortos already, even though it's a lot easier now because turtles were almost the only problem there, but a big big one.
And then, coming from nerfed bosses, they are gonna hit a brickwall named Megaera, wipe, complain, and we'll see Meg being nerfed. Ji-Kun is a complete joke honestly so I don't think we'll see any fix on him.
And then people are gonna get past Nerfed-Meg and Ji-Kun, and hit a brick wall 10 times harder than Meg, named Durumu, and complain, and...
You get the idea
Easy solution. Design raids that aren't one size fits all. Current raids are designed with one size fits all mechanics and the only thing they do is tune numbers instead of actually looking at the fights from the perspective of the raid running them.
Why am I still arguing about this? Because I really didn't want to come back to the game to run hard mode raids. I wanted some beer league casual normals I could raid with friends and NOT leave players behind who can't keep up. I'm not coming here for the sake of arguing, i'm coming here because we had to leave people behind these tiers and I'm genuinely afraid that I will get left behind to. I used to think I was a pretty damn good paladin healer, good enough to heal normals in the past for sure and even heroics (in ICC and in Firelands) but this tier and the kids on this forum are apparently suggesting otherwise. Hell I'd be okay with being an average player but apparently I might not even be that. It's demoralizing. In between finals and assignments coming due I have this extra weight on top of me that apparently I'm no longer up to snuff not because I changed or I got worse but because the game just got to fucking hard. Nobody in the guild says it to me but I can read the writing on the wall. Or maybe I'm being paranoid I don't know. It's just to much. I'm not quitting, that's not a part of who I am but I also don't want to hold anybody back or be a burden ya know. I appreciate you asking me this though. At least you didn't call me a bad. The rest of these assholes would rather call me a bad , and critique my play instead of the raid itself. You sir get no caps rampage
---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 07:36 PM ----------
I think that should tell you the fights are all overtuned but apparently we live in a crazy world now where normal raiders just can't cut it anymore and the only raid content outside of lfr is for hardcores who min max everything.
Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 07:42 PM.
Nerfs would not be necessarily if the fight mechanics were simplier. Take example Molten Core. No nerfs were ever done there afaik because the fight mechanics were simple. Tank and spank and the occasional RUN.
Nowadays all bosses have 20 abilities, so there's bound to be some that are overtuned.
I have looked at your logs and your raid dps is really great! From the looks of it you are in a raid that has a brute force style mentality where they have probably never had problems in the past as they come in and blow the shit up uber fast! I was in a guild like that as well in ICC and it made everythign up to Heroic litch king pretty easy.
This tier is not overtuned but the focus and design was on MECHANICS not brute forcing like many encounters in the past. When the raid was released there was a watercooler from the devs explaining they wanted mechanical checks and for a group like yours this will probably cause more issues than you ever saw in the past! Its not that its overtuned it's just tuned differently than a dps check! I gave links to our raiders and logs because we are very equaly geared when comparing our raid teams. We had allot of issue with Garalon DPS check and elegon dps check and I'm sure that probably was not an issue for your group at all... however our strengh thus far is execution and as such this tier we have been having allot of sucess due to the focus on mechanic > brute force dps!
Proof is in the pudding to be honest... I'm in an extreemly casual guild we raid 1 day a week 4 hours total. I'm not sure how much more casual you can get and if we are progressing just fine then I just can't agree that the tier is over tuned!
Please for the love of god stop calling us kids if Finals and assignments are lifes extra weight to you! I won't discredit that it's a stressful time when you are in school but many of us commenting did that years ago! Just becuase we dissagree with you dose not mean we are kids... case in point im 33, maried, have a child, house etc!
---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:04 PM ----------
The main issue I see more often than not is not the mechanics but a bad decision on what strat to use! A 10 man hard core guild that tosses out a strat vid should be used a s aguide but all too many times a raid leader will get so hung up on " OMG I SAW UBERGULDPWNERS do RGRGRGRGRG on Mageara and it looked soo simple were doing it the easy way like them" 20 wipes later same RL is raging on "why are you bads dieing to simple shit didnt you look at the vid???" Problem is they dont have the same gear to brute force the encountre with that strat so they say the encountre is super hard or overtuned instead of figuring out what works for them and maybe playing to there strengths!
Youtube Chan : http://www.youtube.com/user/eqbobyboucher
Armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced
I keep saying it and I'll keep saying it. The guild I raid with and myself have all raided heroics in the past. We've got server first yogg saron players in that guild. We've got experienced raiders. WE've got good raids dps and good execution. We WILL TRIVIALIZE Megara with more gear but that isn't really the point. All the wealth of experience this raid guild has and were all virtually in agreement that so far every fight this tier has felt like downing a heroic boss. This is all on NORMAL DIFFICULTY. Now theirs disagreement about wether that's a good thing or not but nobody questions that this tier is off the fucking wall for normal difficulty. We think we'll get lei shin under the wire but it'll be close depending on how soon 5.3 comes out. When 5.3 comes out we'll probably destroy everything. Gear upgrades will break most fights.
Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 08:26 PM.
Very true. We personally did B-R-B-G-B-G-B Because it reduces alot of raid dmg till the very end and helps the whole thing be a bit more stable. It took us quite a few wipes trying different orders till this one stuck, now we do it every week and one shot it with this strat.
I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen any Normal Mode Durumu is overtuned threads yet. Getting my popcorn ready for that one.
I'm sure you will trivialize the fight with more gear and my point is not to say you bad players! My point is that you can trivialize that fight right now with the gear you have with the CORRECT STRAT! Our guild has the same gear as yours, we raid only 1 day a week and we thought mageara was a brick wall night one and people were demoralized when we kept getting to the last head and getting WTF raped by green shit all over. Came back next week change ONE head color in the rotation and BAM we pull we killed it and then we pull out a 9 man kill of it this week!
I will be the first to admit... if you go in with a 25 man strat, or a 10 man comp strat that does not compliment your raid the boss will feel like a heroic overtuned boss! You wont hear me argue that ever...but if your not willing to rethink your strat and look at it from a different POV then why should blizz nerf it for you when others like myself are steam rolling it as is with a correct strat for our team? I would seriously sugest that you try doing it the GRGRBGR way the next lockout you will see that one blue head changes everythign for healers at the end and is why we changed it up!
None of the fights have felt close to as hard as yogg 0 was. That was a true F you overtuned heroic that kicked your ass if one person fucked up and there was only one strat for that and thats the reason I will always rock the deaths demise title!
Youtube Chan : http://www.youtube.com/user/eqbobyboucher
Armory : http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Odina/advanced
Thats exactly the problem. The fights aren't overtuned really at all. It is just that a lot of normal mode players are not use to an early boss in the tier being as mechanically intricate as an end boss like Empress. Then rather learn to adjust to mechanics, they want to brute force them like they see heroic guilds doing (or want hp nerfs like council and horridon are getting) so they never really have to learn how to deal with the mechanics.
Like Mag... that is really, really easy. But if you go and kill green every other head, yeah you're gonna take a crap ton of damage. For some guilds, that was trivial which made the annoyance of having some one kite the blue beam not worth it (incidentally that only really works on 10m because the damage for the poison bomb is over adjusted but whatever). Doing red and green only is essentially your raid trying to ignore 2 mechanics: the blue beam as you get none, but also the green as you are adopting a 'whatever, we will just heal through it' plan. Don't be shocked when ignoring multiple mechanics doesn't net your guild a new kill in a short span of time.
We tried killing the blues. it sucks. THe dps spend more time running from the heads then they actually do killing the bosses and we spend more time healing and we eventually run oom anyway. I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. All the strats that kill the blue heads complicate this fight enourmesly by adding another layer of difficulty and further mechanics to over come. RGRGRGRGRG worked for us and it's only because of a fucking massive gear check that this fight wasn't even easier to down. So yes these fights are massive gear checks and they all assume your raid has downed the previous tier in Blizzards futile and vein attempt to bring back tiered raiding.
So what is the problem exactly? The tier has to last people beyond 5.3... Obviously it would be really dumb to tune the tier so that the vast majority is done with their content (meaning normal mode guilds are all done with normal and heroic mode guilds are all done with heroic) before 5.3 and then have them wait months for 5.4 with nothing to do.
The fights are fine. You get extra gear initially from vp and maybe lfr and then with 5.3 you get vp upgrades. These will gradually help your raid out and is why there doesn't really need to be sweeping nerfs of anything.
---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:35 PM ----------
Uh yeah... when you purposely choose to ignore mechanics, the fight will end up placing far more emphasis on the "gear check." You're doing that to yourselves... don't come whining here about overtuned fights when you purposely do it in a way that requires more gear.
Because actually doing the fight the way they intend actually makes the fights even harder. That's how we got by council pre nerf to. We stacked the bosses up and just cleave them the fuck down. Doing it the actual way Blizzard intended would be a massive shit fest. Fights are overtuned from every way you look at it. Doing them properly or zerging the fuck out of them.
The fights aren't fine. They are over tuned and are probably tuned under the assumption that the previous tier was all completed and maybe eveon some heroics were done. It wouldn't be "dumb" to tune the normal tier so that normal raiders could complete it around 5.3 or just after that. It would make total fucking sense. At that point I would potentially try some heroic bosses. At this rate I doubt we'll get that far in.