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  1. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    So what is the problem exactly? The tier has to last people beyond 5.3... Obviously it would be really dumb to tune the tier so that the vast majority is done with their content (meaning normal mode guilds are all done with normal and heroic mode guilds are all done with heroic) before 5.3 and then have them wait months for 5.4 with nothing to do.

    The fights are fine. You get extra gear initially from vp and maybe lfr and then with 5.3 you get vp upgrades. These will gradually help your raid out and is why there doesn't really need to be sweeping nerfs of anything.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:35 PM ----------



    Uh yeah... when you purposely choose to ignore mechanics, the fight will end up placing far more emphasis on the "gear check." You're doing that to yourselves... don't come whining here about overtuned fights when you purposely do it in a way that requires more gear.
    The point is (and it keeps being ignored) is that plenty of normal mode raiders become overloaded once there are too many mechanics + their DPS/HPS to maintain.

    It's a lot to focus on, people do have a variance in their cognitive limits. One reason I believe that there is so much angst on this issue is because there doesnt seem any way to overgear and brute force the mechanics on the horizon, which (if you accept that the normal raiders are overloaded) means there is then no hope of clearing the raids unless the nerfs start to get very hefty.

    A simple example is garalon - blizzard recently extended the enrage by a huge amount. Was the enrage the problem though? I doubt it. The problem will have been the 146 item "to do" checklist which the RL will have had to go through + training everyone up to do the various jobs involved and then the raiders involved still having to execute them well because a 10% hp nerf and an enrage extension doesn't really help you a whole lot if two raiders live under the boss due to being overloaded.

  2. #1282
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because actually doing the fight the way they intend actually makes the fights even harder. That's how we got by council pre nerf to. We stacked the bosses up and just cleave them the fuck down. Doing it the actual way Blizzard intended would be a massive shit fest. Fights are overtuned from every way you look at it. Doing them properly or zerging the fuck out of them.

    The fights aren't fine. They are over tuned and are probably tuned under the assumption that the previous tier was all completed and maybe eveon some heroics were done. It wouldn't be "dumb" to tune the normal tier so that normal raiders could complete it around 5.3 or just after that. It would make total fucking sense. At that point I would potentially try some heroic bosses. At this rate I doubt we'll get that far in.
    So if you have issues with normal mechanics is your head going to explode if you try heroic stuff?

  3. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The point is (and it keeps being ignored) is that plenty of normal mode raiders become overloaded once there are too many mechanics + their DPS/HPS to maintain.

    It's a lot to focus on, people do have a variance in their cognitive limits. One reason I believe that there is so much angst on this issue is because there doesnt seem any way to overgear and brute force the mechanics on the horizon, which (if you accept that the normal raiders are overloaded) means there is then no hope of clearing the raids unless the nerfs start to get very hefty.
    Yea it's got so overloaded that I have so much crap to do. Oddly enough from a hps maintining stand point I think I had more to keep track of in cata. I had to judge on cooldown but the fights were such that I could afford to keep track of that and not divide my focus a million and one ways. It's just so overwhelming and without the gear to in turn to overcome the fight itself it just becomes an exercise in frustration.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    We tried killing the blues. it sucks. THe dps spend more time running from the heads then they actually do killing the bosses and we spend more time healing and we eventually run oom anyway. .
    I never said blues plural See the thing about this boss is you got to adjust it to your raids needs! We only kill 1 blue head to alieviate the green shit at the very end so 5th head we kill is blue but the rest of the time it's just red and green. The fight is not overtuned your choosing the most extreem brute force strat of them all for that fight! Like I have said allot of times it comes down to people choosing a strat that may not be for them and then getting mad!

    The fight really is not a gear check at all... same Ilevel as you down an entire DPS becuase they didnt fuckign log on till we got to ji-kun and we still downed it in one shot becuase we used the apropriate strat for our comps strengh!

    Here my POV ... the fight is not easy but if you use the right strat is deff not "heroic hard overtuned" I make plenty of mistakes on this first kill you can see them all over and an overtuned fight would not allow for a tank to make mistakes!
    Last edited by Odina; 2013-04-19 at 08:56 PM.

  5. #1285
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So if you have issues with normal mechanics is your head going to explode if you try heroic stuff?
    No. I expect that from heroic bosses, not from normals and to be honest I always had the option of just not raiding heroics. We could also pick and choose which heroic bosses we wanted to do, can't really pick and choose which normals we want to do. Well I guess I could not raid normals to but that leaves me out in the fucking cold.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1286
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Because actually doing the fight the way they intend actually makes the fights even harder. That's how we got by council pre nerf to. We stacked the bosses up and just cleave them the fuck down. Doing it the actual way Blizzard intended would be a massive shit fest. Fights are overtuned from every way you look at it. Doing them properly or zerging the fuck out of them.

    The fights aren't fine. They are over tuned and are probably tuned under the assumption that the previous tier was all completed and maybe eveon some heroics were done. It wouldn't be "dumb" to tune the normal tier so that normal raiders could complete it around 5.3 or just after that. It would make total fucking sense. At that point I would potentially try some heroic bosses. At this rate I doubt we'll get that far in.
    No. Most Normal Mode only raiders should not kill Lei Shen right around 5.3; otherwise we'd have all the "I'm good enough to kill Normal Lei Shen, nerf Heroic modes because I have nothing left to do until 5.4" threads.

    5.2 was released 3 months after 5.1 came out, so expect the same amount of time between 5.3 and 5.4.

  7. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I never said blues plural See the thing about this boss is you got to adjust it to your raids needs! We only kill 1 blue head to alieviate the green shit at the very end so 5th head we kill is blue but the rest of the time it's just red and green. The fight is not overtuned your choosing the most extreem brute force strat of them all for that fight! Like I have said allot of times it comes down to people choosing a strat that may not be for them and then getting mad!

    The fight really is not a gear check at all... same Ilevel as you down an entire DPS becuase they didnt fuckign log on till we got to ji-kun and we still downed it in one shot becuase we used the apropriate strat for our comps strengh!

    Here my POV ... the fight is not easy but if you use the right strat is deff not "heroic hard overtuned"
    It is absolutely a gear check and throwing a blue head in just complicates the matter even further. Like I said I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. Killing red and green is so god damn simple. It's just a massive gear check.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    No. Most Normal Mode only raiders should not kill Lei Shen right around 5.3; otherwise we'd have all the "I'm good enough to kill Normal Lei Shen, nerf Heroic modes because I have nothing left to do until 5.4" threads.
    Not really and even then what do you care? Most of you heroic raiders will be 10/12 or 11/12 at that point anyway. What are you now 6/12? by the time 5.3 comes out what will you be? 9/12? 10/12? I don't accept that people will be calling for nerfs or that Blizzard will acceed anyway and I don't think they should even if people are calling for it but you know what I don't understand what you care? If Blizzard did nerf the heroic modes I would be pissed because theirs a place for heroic modes and the content should be there for people who like to do it like that. I also don't think people would be that up in arms asking for heroic nerfs, I mean you can pick and choose which bosses you want on heroic and my understanding is that quite a few are easy as fuck. Currently if your good enough to kill lei shen you can clear a whole bunch of the heroic bosses no problem.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-19 at 09:01 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1288
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    I never said blues plural See the thing about this boss is you got to adjust it to your raids needs! We only kill 1 blue head to alieviate the green shit at the very end so 5th head we kill is blue but the rest of the time it's just red and green. The fight is not overtuned your choosing the most extreem brute force strat of them all for that fight! Like I have said allot of times it comes down to people choosing a strat that may not be for them and then getting mad!

    The fight really is not a gear check at all... same Ilevel as you down an entire DPS becuase they didnt fuckign log on till we got to ji-kun and we still downed it in one shot becuase we used the apropriate strat for our comps strengh!

    Here my POV ... the fight is not easy but if you use the right strat is deff not "heroic hard overtuned" I make plenty of mistakes on this first kill you can see them all over and an overtuned fight would not allow for a tank to make mistakes!
    Ah ofc.

    The fights aren't incredibly complicated, you just need to magically know the exact right combination of tactics to use given the raid group you have on the night!

    Nothing hard about that at all is there.

  9. #1289
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It is absolutely a gear check and throwing a blue head in just complicates the matter even further. Like I said I'm a big fan of keeping it simple. Killing red and green is so god damn simple. It's just a massive gear check.
    Ya... I think he is saying if you do it all red green, you are choosing to make it a gear check. If you throw some blue it in complicates the mechanics, but reduces the gear requirement aspect. I remember reading something when we got to mergera that said Red/Green back and forth was the simplest (like you said), but they specified that the trade off is you gotta have some wicked DPS to push through fast enough. So you get the choice with this fight.... More mechanics... or more gear...

  10. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Ya... I think he is saying if you do it all red green, you are choosing to make it a gear check. If you throw some blue it in complicates the mechanics, but reduces the gear requirement aspect. I remember reading something when we got to mergera that said Red/Green back and forth was the simplest (like you said), but they specified that the trade off is you gotta have some wicked DPS to push through fast enough. So you get the choice with this fight.... More mechanics... or more gear...
    No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words. Now if the developers didn't intend this strat to be viable then they ought to make it so that you can't do it that way. PERIOD. At all. Same for the council strat we use.

    It's a non choice. Either the fights are overtuned or the mechanics are overwhelming. NONE OF IT IS NORMAL RAIDING THOUGH. I don't think it's that clear cut mind you, I think they both sort of have interplay with each other but at the end of the day it's a pretty shit choice.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1291
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    Heroics / part of the elite on 4 hours a week raiding? No just NO I do not belong to that group!

    As well i would not say I'm top 25% skilled however this is a MMORPG and I put in time to try and learn from my mistakes and educate myself on my class / role / spec! You are supose to invest time to better yourself not just show up to the raid @ max level and expect it to be a pushover. There is more to it than just getting gear and that is what people seem to have forgotten or not learned!

    Normals should be tuned for normal controll of your toon IE knowing how to play! If you don't knwo how to play you should run into a wall on raid bosses!
    Yes. Its irrelevant how many hours you play. You are in fact an heroic level skill player and you are part of the top 25% of people (the rest never finished T14 Normal).

    Yes, normals should be tuned for normal control of your toon, but normal control of your toon is the control the average player has over it, not the control the top 25% of players have.

  12. #1292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Ah ofc.

    The fights aren't incredibly complicated, you just need to magically know the exact right combination of tactics to use given the raid group you have on the night!

    Nothing hard about that at all is there.
    If it was hard then how did we 9 man it ??

  13. #1293
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    If it was hard then how did we 9 man it ??
    By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

    But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.

  14. #1294
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    [QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880600]No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words.[QUOTE]

    You chose to keep the motion of your raiders to a minimum and simple however by doing so you also chose to complicate it for healers by upping the HPS req of the fight. You have the choise to move more or heal your ass off more and do really good dps!

    one choice = execute properly the other is brute force it with A)Really good healers / DPS B) Throw gear from last tier at it or C) Wait to get gear and keep throwing gear at it till it drops!


    I guess we will just agree to dissagree ! Glory of opinions is you don't have to agree with others

  15. #1295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

    But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.
    I honestly agree with the tactic we chose, and it did work for us. We kept it simple and zerged the fuck out of the boss. It made the fight a massive gear check but a gear check is in many respects easier to overcome especially when your raid has really good dps. If that isn't an intended strat though then they ought to not make it a viable one. if it is one they intend you to do (and imo it is the simplest one) then they ought to tune it as such.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1296
    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    If it was hard then how did we 9 man it ??
    Because he's was born with God's gift to be able to play this video game at the top 25% level. It wasn't practice or anything else, he was naturally born with the skill and talent. Amirite?

  17. #1297
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words. Now if the developers didn't intend this strat to be viable then they ought to make it so that you can't do it that way. PERIOD. At all. Same for the council strat we use.

    It's a non choice. Either the fights are overtuned or the mechanics are overwhelming. NONE OF IT IS NORMAL RAIDING THOUGH. I don't think it's that clear cut mind you, I think they both sort of have interplay with each other but at the end of the day it's a pretty shit choice.
    Its like a slider. You are choosing to keep it simpler, which in turn makes the gear requirements higher. I personally think its genius design. It allows the group trying it to tailor it to their playstyle. Want simple mechanics, fine, but you need more gear. Don't want to wait to get more gear, fine, but its going to be more complicated.


    Complex Mechanics |--------------------------------------| Simple Mechanics
    Lower Gear Higher Gear

  18. #1298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    By managing to choose the right tactic out of the several hundred combinations that are available!

    But that's a skill that everybody has, right? Every single raider looked at the list of abilities and just instantly got what they should do, didn't they?

    Oh no.....wait... no they didn't and choosing the right tacs is a rare skill in and of itself.
    We didnt magically pull it from our ass! We wipped all night using the wrong strat. We sat back waited a week and during that week peopel thoguth of what was killing us. Then we talked about what we thoguth was killign us and came to a conclusion to try tossing in a blue head kill to help out our healers at the end.

    is that not what raiding normals is about... figuring out strats, commign up against a boss and as a team figuring out how to kill it? If you want shit to just roll over without figuring out strats and what works for your team then LFR is one que away!

  19. #1299
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    [QUOTE=bobyboucher;20880680][QUOTE=Glorious Leader;20880600]No we aren't choosing to make it a gear check, that was Blizzards design. We are choosing to avoid the needless complication and overwhelming stupid fucking mechanics that Blizzard puts on the boss. We choose to keep it simple in other words.

    You chose to keep the motion of your raiders to a minimum and simple however by doing so you also chose to complicate it for healers by upping the HPS req of the fight. You have the choise to move more or heal your ass off more and do really good dps!

    one choice = execute properly the other is brute force it with A)Really good healers / DPS B) Throw gear from last tier at it or C) Wait to get gear and keep throwing gear at it till it drops!


    I guess we will just agree to dissagree ! Glory of opinions is you don't have to agree with others
    Yes because it's make the fight gloriously simple. It makes the fight a gear check which we can overcome a lot easier. Again if that strat wasn't intended to be a viable one, it ought not to be viable. If the developers intend that you can choose to do it that way then it ought to be tuned to a more approriate gear level.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Its like a slider. You are choosing to keep it simpler, which in turn makes the gear requirements higher. I personally think its genius design. It allows the group trying it to tailor it to their playstyle. Want simple mechanics, fine, but you need more gear. Don't want to wait to get more gear, fine, but its going to be more complicated.


    Complex Mechanics |--------------------------------------| Simple Mechanics
    Lower Gear Higher Gear

    Again we didn't choose to make it a gear check, we chose to make it simpler. That's it. Again if the developers didn't intend for us to do it this way and we are circumventing mechanics then they ought not to let us do that. If they want to let us do it that way then they ought to tune it so that we can. It's not a genious design, it's simple just hard and punishing. It's not a "normal" design by any stretch, it's a heroic design.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 09:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    We didnt magically pull it from our ass! We wipped all night using the wrong strat. We sat back waited a week and during that week peopel thoguth of what was killing us. Then we talked about what we thoguth was killign us and came to a conclusion to try tossing in a blue head kill to help out our healers at the end.

    is that not what raiding normals is about... figuring out strats, commign up against a boss and as a team figuring out how to kill it? If you want shit to just roll over without figuring out strats and what works for your team then LFR is one que away!
    No we don't want shit to just roll over. Does nobody understand what medium difficulty is?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #1300
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Because he's was born with God's gift to be able to play this video game at the top 25% level. It wasn't practice or anything else, he was naturally born with the skill and talent. Amirite?
    I disagree. I think a larger portion of "ability" is due to effort than natural skill. Not saying there isn't a natural element involved, just that effort goes a long way. The problem with most people is they are just not willing to put forth that effort.

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