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  1. #121
    Eyes of the Beast used to have a very vital role on our (original) ZA 10 man raids. We'd used it to pull that mob on the steps up towards the hawk boss so that other adds wouldn't spawn as we killed him. However, that's the only time I can remember using it for raids.

  2. #122
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    Actually bloat suggests that there are too many abilities regardless of whether players put them on their action bars or not.
    Does it? Or is that the definition which fits your argument? Here's another idea; instead of taking these things out the game why don't they add a crap ton of fun, practically useless abilities which can be learned at the trainer and are stored in a different tab in the spellbook. There, I just kept the people who like these abilities happy while offering a solution to those who don't want these spells clogging up their UI and I prevented new players from getting unduly confused and restored some use to the class trainers. Or we can just take stuff out. Calling it "bloat" is jst throwing a meaningless word at something as a justification for removing it.

  3. #123
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Ghostcrawler is bloat. The Eyes of the Beast twit shows one of his key flaws as a designer: "bloat" apparently means stuff that he, personally, doesn't find fun or enjoyable. It explains so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    Scouting with a stealthed pet. Granted, in ez-mode WoW that's a lot less useful and relevant than it used to be, but it still has some utility, in pvp if nothing else.

    And you didn't hotkey EotB, you stuck it on a bar somewhere and mouse-clicked it when you wanted it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 12:51 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crym View Post
    Exactly, and personally I'd like to see more flavor abilities. I think it would encourage people to "mess around" more in game and remove some of the seriousness people let ruin their experience.
    But, but, then someone might actually find a clever way to use the ability that lets them do something other do something other players can't or don't want to bother with. (Especially in PvP!) Or even worse, players might have non-Blizzard approved fun in the Blizzard game!

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 01:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    But the aspects are apparently considered bloat too, so figure they'll remove another fact of hunter identity.

    In the end, players will get what they're asking for and we'll have about 4 buttons in our rotation and a handful of situational abilities. Then the hunter class will be labeled as "boring" with "not enough skills/choices in combat."
    In my (admittedly cynical opinion) it sometimes looks like that's where they're heading with all the classes.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.

    For fun? Isn't this a game, isn't the primary goal fun? Eyes of the beast was arguable one of the funnest abilities in the game.

    as for having it as a hotkey, are you an idiot? Only a moron would have eyes of the beast as a hotkey. Obviously you never played a hunter. Eyes of the beast was anything but bloat.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    No but it still took up UI space for a skill that never got used.

    What was its use? The only thing mentioned was larking around in cities, is that truly it?
    if you don't use it, don't put it on your UI, duh? I'm struggling not to get banned here.

  5. #125
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    You have got to be kidding. Did you seriously just say all the new fun abilities and fluff glyphs added in Mop has nothing to do with a thread about a fun ability being removed and claims that Blizzard doesn't like fun? Come on now I expect a little more critical thought and common sense from a moderator..
    Critical thinking moderator is pointing out that "they're not removing fun things because they've added fun things" is not a logical argument. Is the presence of other fun things in the game relevant to a discussion about "fun things"? Sure. Is the existence of other fun things relevant in an argument about whether specific fun things got removed? No. Adding and removing are not mutually exclusive. You wouldn't tell a person lamenting the ice cream shopping ceasing to carry their favourite kind that their flavour didn't get removed because they added chocolate and strawberry. You wouldn't tell a person here that Blizzard didn't remove fun things because they added other, different fun things.

    Quote Originally Posted by xanzul View Post
    I'm not exactly understanding why you people keep pointing out video games are for fun. Who has said otherwise? Fun abilities with purpose aren't clutter but abilities that are fun for the sake of fun is clutter. There is a significant difference that most of you seem unable to comprehend.
    I bring it up because there are plenty of people who are missing the point when they ask what purpose it served. They might not deny fun is an important component of the game, but the implication of that statement is that they don't see "fun" as an end in itself. People keep bringing it up to answer that question. The use is entertainment. It doesn't need to go further than that within the context of a video game.

    You might disagree that fun for the sake of fun is a a worthy enough purpose, and you might consider it clutter, but it's still a perfectly reasonable answer to the question.

    As far as whether it is "clutter" or not is pretty subjective. Whether or not it is a "significant difference" is completely opinion. I personally think that something that doesn't need to be on my action bar isn't clutter. I'm far more likely to apply the term to DPS abilities that take up actionbar real estate but are redundant or seldom used.

    Sometimes people disagree because they hold different opinions not because they're "unable to comprehend" that your totally subjective statement is the Ultimate Truth™. There's no reason to imply people are stupid or dense just because they arrived at a different conclusion.


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  6. #126
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    Why would you need to hot key it? It was a fun spell. It was a nice flavour ability. Keyboard cramp is an issue for combat based mechanics - of which this spell doesn't count.

    EJL

  7. #127
    Deleted
    I'm mad because he removed my Divine Intervention.

  8. #128
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    It's a funny case isnt it? GC deems out of combo situational fun skills as bloat but appear to be perfectly fine with some classes and specces having to play a freaking piano when doing their rotations.

    My guess is that WoW simply reached the kind of stage where the game is so complex, even devs themselves are losing it.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    Divine Intervention was prone to cheese, so I understand that.
    And at the same time it was a nice, flavorsome ability that could have been reworked.

    All 3 seals are removed, as they serve no function since I am only using Seal of Insight anyway. Might be fun if you make Seals only visual changes to your character instead of functional. So for example Seal of Truth causes it's activation graphic to pop up when you enter combat, Seal of Righteousness causes wings to appear on your back like Avenging Wrath (but permanently) and Seal of Insight occasionally causes it's activation graphic to appear when using rotational abilities.
    Seals do require work? Removal? Perhaps.

    Hammer of Wrath is removed, as it is basically the definition of bloat. Why on earth do I need an execute mechanic? Moar DPS?
    Yes. You don't have to have it on your bar, but its a useful tool in many situations and it prevents the rotation being too empty at times.

    Every man for himself no longer works on anything raid or dungeon mobs do, or remove it altogether.
    It works on quite a bit when I use it.

    Healthstones are now only for the Warlock him/herself.
    Why remove their group utility?

    The function of Consecration and Holy Wrath are now combined into one spell that also causes the weakened blows debuff for 30 seconds to anything the Holy Wrath part of it hits.
    The spells work in different ways and are useful in different roles and situations.
    Why not get rid of bloat by having one attack?

    That's 13 things removed or baked into other things. Obviously number balance would be required as well.
    And you end up reducing the paladins ability to react to different situations, you remove flavor, you remove skill in choosing the right ability for the job, you've gutted the resource system with the removal of CS....shall I go on?

    You don't remove bloat by removing abilities you personally don't like or which doesn't suit the way you, personally, play or address responsibilities or activities you take part in.

    You want to reduce Protadins "bloat"? Then you need to actually work out a core rotation, determine what moves are mandatory and what are needed.

    Base rotation now is Build 3 HP and then use Finisher. How long does that take? How long do you want it to take?

    Protadins single target toolkit is - CS, HoW, Judgment, SotR.
    Protadins AoE toolkit - HotR, HW, Cons, AS.

    So - ST and AoE HP generator, Execute move, Ranged attack, a Multi-target attack, a ST finisher and 2 AoE moves.

    I can see a case that the Damage toolkit has gaps, never mind requires paring due to bloat. You would also remove utility, defensive abilities and CDs reducing your tanks ability to deal with incoming damage simply because you don't like some of the buttons. I think your suggestions require some more work and thought.

    EJL

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    Two words... Mob Pathing.
    Remember in WotLK, the Nexus, you just killed the mage boss and were moving on to the arcane elemental, there's this one bit with two circular platforms with dragonkin on it, after killing those you'd jump off the second platform to start killing elementals. Every pet, warlock, hunter, dk etc would take the long way around even with the recent improved peet pathing. They would ALWAYS pull more mobs. This would be one of those situations where I would use eyes of the beast. Simply jump him down, put him on stay, and jump down myself.

    Not to mention it's just a heck of a lot of fun using it in cities while idling for queues
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  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithshield View Post
    I have a lot of respect for GC, but his comments on Eyes of the Beast on Twitter were simply ridiculous.

    Eyes of the Beast, a skill that allowed hunters to channel a spell which gave them direct control of their pet, was a fun spell that many people enjoyed messing around with. You could play around with it in cities, you could use it for RP, and it was good fun running around as your favourite pet Yes it wasn't a DPS skill, or one you would even use in your rotation, but it was still a fun skill that thematically fitted the Hunter's kit of spells. Many classes have these type of spells, such as Mind Vision (Priests), Far Sight (Shaman), Water breathing (Warlock; used to be Shaman as well but that too got removed as 'bloat'). Spells that are just 'fun stuff' that sit on page 3 or 4 of your quickbar and are messed around with every now and again.

    Ultimately it effects us all, because from the sounding off which GC has given, I expect them to try and cut out more 'bloat'. I would be happy for them to merge my Druid's Swipe and Thrash abilities, but please lets not delete Aquatic Form because apparently it has no DPS gain in raids, and somehow 'overwhelms' the player with clutter. We don't need nannying, we can figure out what is and isn't useful in a competitive combat situation. :P
    He wasn't saying ONLY "dps gain" skills were not "bloat". Just that skills with basically NO use(as dps, utility, etc) is bloat. I don't agree with him, but I'm pretty sure that's what he means. Aquatic form is utility-being able to swim faster, and breathe underwater(which also covers the warlock underwater breathing skill, I dunno why shaman lost theirs, guess blizz just doesn't want water breathing and water walking on the same class anymore) DOES have actual in game benefits other than RPing. Now, I guess Far Sight or Mind Vision could probably be removed as "bloat" but I wouldn't put aquatic form or underwater breathing in the same category as eyes of the beast...

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    Does it? Or is that the definition which fits your argument? Here's another idea; instead of taking these things out the game why don't they add a crap ton of fun, practically useless abilities which can be learned at the trainer and are stored in a different tab in the spellbook. There, I just kept the people who like these abilities happy while offering a solution to those who don't want these spells clogging up their UI and I prevented new players from getting unduly confused and restored some use to the class trainers. Or we can just take stuff out. Calling it "bloat" is jst throwing a meaningless word at something as a justification for removing it.
    Just replying to this to support the idea of entirely fun; separately stored class spells learned from trainers. This is an absolutely awesome idea.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyokuchaMidori View Post
    Yes, here the thing, while hunters have too many buttons to push in their rotation, eye of the beast is not one of them, so removing it does not solve the problem at all.
    Am I wrong in thinking 'better' hunters prefer more buttons?

  14. #134
    I used it like 3 times total for 5 years, with a hunter being one of my favourite characters. It is the bloat, it is useless and unfair.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by thevoicefromwithin View Post
    This. Street is a completely one-dimensional retard. He directs the game to cater to 5 or 10% of subscribers neglecting anything else, most likely he belonged/belongs to that minority. Wish Blizzard was as strict about getting rid of morons as Microsoft is...
    Street is a very good RTS designer. Unfortunately, what works in a RTS isn't necessarily what works or is fun in a MMORPG.

  16. #136
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Fun was detected, nerfed.
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  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Briga View Post
    You can keep it if you can think of a single decent use for it.

    Hunters have way too many skills to use as it is, its a hot key nightmare.
    Show me the class that isn't a hotkey nightmare?
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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    In my (admittedly cynical opinion) it sometimes looks like that's where they're heading with all the classes.
    How many buttons do you think hunters had during vanilla? They have more now....

  19. #139
    GC operates in a little OCD box of mathematical equality. Decisions are made are made in isolated environment to make everything be nice and neat on the stat sheets. Eg every class needs to have the same amount of non-combat 'fun' abilities, regardless of the quality and nature of the ability itself.

    The whole 'homogenizing, streamlining, simplifying, equalzing', mentality that has permeated throughout WoW development since GC took over has been terrible for the game. GC would be probably be excellent as an accountant, making sure everything lines up nice and neat and fits perfectly into his stat boxes.

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  20. #140
    Deleted
    Well they don't allow fun, we know that. Nothing new.

    It was too fun apparently.

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