New ST & glyph nerfs?

[Deleted]

Shuriken Toss now deals 100% more damage in the initial ranged attack, damage is no longer doubled when used on targets farther than 10 yards away, and energy cost has been increased to 40 energy, up from 20.

Glyph of Cheap Shot now increases the duration of Cheap Shot by 0.5 second, down from 1 second.
Glyph of Garrote now increases the duration of Garrote's silence effect by 1 second, down from 1.5 seconds.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/913...l_15-4_15_2013

So it looks like PTR ST is now dealing exactly the same damage at range as live ST, but for twice the amount of energy.

[Kael]

Yep.

"is the ST nerf thanks to the DT Buff last patch? Was fun as a CP Generator, not as a wannabe autoattack spin-off.
We didn't like it as a cheap CP generator. We wanted it to be for times when you couldn't be in melee."

^Tweet and response.

Basically, they didn't want it to be used as an alternate CP generator and changed it to stop that happening. It's back to the original intent properly (so we're not screwed entirely on Atramedes-styled fights), but any "fun nudges" along the way have been stamped out. This should also put to rest any fears about short (3s) rogue ranged burst.

[Deleted]

Well nerfs to ST were expected (by almost anyone), but meanwhile the community attention has shifted from "ST is OP" to something more like "a rogue killed me in the opener and I have 67% resilience".

I think we will see more adjustments, BM hunters also got hit with the nerf bat (3 sec stun is a talent now, in the same tier as silencing shot).

[Carp The Fish]

Are the auto-attacks gone? That'd be the real "ST is useful" killer, in my book.
And honestly, the nerf is justified. I messed with it for a few attempts on Horridon Heroic, and 88k (515 ilvl) is not something ANY melee spec should pull at ranged. It goes from 88k to 60k or so (if I had to guess, since they're nerfing the amount instead of the damage), and that turns ST into exactly what they want it to be.

As to "A rogue killed me in the opener!", that's what the glyph nerfs are for. Rogues are scaling a little faster than they expected, and opening burst is starting to be a problem if you don't know how to counter it or if you don't have a healer. The glyph nerfs make it so skilled players have a window of opportunity to counter it.

[Verain]

I don't get what is going on.

First, they double the damage and cost- halving the CP generation as a net.

GC offers reasoning, and even clarifies that it wasn't so much about rogue control as it was about discouraging the use to build CPs cheaply (aka, it should be used to turn on range attacks).


Now, that change was not exactly necessary- but I think that it was a pretty solid one, overall. ST being a super cheap generator did lead to its use in melee at times (target not going to die, you want to setup for burst cycle, ST lets you do that faster than hemo). The idea of a dude in melee throwing shuriken at you is ludicrous, and mechanically it wasn't the intent, so... nerf. Which is fine.

But this change is really bad. ST hits a target dummy for 20k in pvp gear. Now it'll be doing that for 40 energy? Gimme a break!

[Wow]

The st change would be fine if it was baseline but as a talent it will be dead and the mfd qq will come in full swing.

[Verain]

Are the auto-attacks gone? That'd be the real "ST is useful" killer, in my book.
And honestly, the nerf is justified. I messed with it for a few attempts on Horridon Heroic, and 88k (515 ilvl) is not something ANY melee spec should pull at ranged.

Well, why not? Look at how much a hunter can pull while moving. Isn't that more than "ANY ranged spec should pull while mobile"? Being the only class that can't spec out of melee, I think a reasonable ranged option is just fine. How much would an 515 shadow priest do on horridon heroic? Double that, right? I don't think it's in any way unwarranted or bad.

[kilj]

Im going to miss the combo points.... Made it nice to refresh Recoup while trying to flee or LoS

[Sicarius87]

To hell with all the talk about ST. Everyone expected this. What I wanna know is why they nerfed glyph of garrote

[Squirl]

To hell with all the talk about ST. Everyone expected this. What I wanna know is why they nerfed glyph of garrote

This. Control is the only thing that keeps us alive. The .5s on CS and Garrote DO MATTER. I wish they would give us some real survivability (old Imp Recup and take it off battle fatigue, plox).

[Drunkhobo]

I will probably drop cheap glyph for bomb or some other glyph

[Deleted]

This is horrible. Now even more people will use marked for death which will lead to massive amount of QQ on the forum for the burst it provides.
Can't believe they gutted cheapshot and garrote glyph also.

[Sesshou]

To hell with all the talk about ST. Everyone expected this. What I wanna know is why they nerfed glyph of garrote

I certainly expected a nerf, either a nerf to CP so you can't just DT spam or a nerf to its damage, however I didn't really expect a massive nerf to both... It was a really fun talent, but I can't see it comparing with MfD now... and that is going to cause more complaining about our openers as every rogue will have an extra 5cp evis.

Also really questioning if cheap shot glyph is useful at all. .5 seconds isn't going to get you another global so...

[Ryme]

A nerf to Deadly Throw made far more sense in my eyes, this now makes Marked for Death close to unquestionably better and Anticipation is just obviously better in PvE, once again, the talent is dead.

[Verain]

I certainly expected a nerf, either a nerf to CP so you can't just DT spam or a nerf to its damage, however I didn't really expect a massive nerf to both...

Generally agree. This really nukes the talent hard. I'm wondering if we are seeing some intermediary thing. "I'm going to double the energy cost of this move" is a nerf so big that rogues have NEVER seen anything like it. The rep numbers don't show that such a thing should happen (and when they did for, say, warriors last season, we certainly didn't see moves get halved in damage). I really think this is stupid.

It was a really fun talent, but I can't see it comparing with MfD now... and that is going to cause more complaining about our openers as every rogue will have an extra 5cp evis.

It might still be worth it versus certain comps. Not in general though.

Also really questioning if cheap shot glyph is useful at all. .5 seconds isn't going to get you another global so...

Here's how it normally works:

0.0 -> You press cheap shot. Your global begins spinning.
0.2 -> Cheap Shot applied to enemy.
1.0 -> Your first move, that you queued up a tenth of a second prior or whatever.
1.2 -> 3 seconds remain on Cheap Shot
2.0 -> Your second move.
2.2 -> 2 seconds remain on Cheap Shot.
3.0 -> Your third move.
3.2 -> 1 second remains on Cheap Shot.
4.0 -> Your fourth move.
4.2 -> Cheap Shot ends

HOWEVER- plenty of things can munge that up, such as sliding cheap shots or you have more latency than your opponent. The glyph will still buy that stuff- it'll buy you a global under some circumstances. It'll also buy you much less time for them to be useful in. For instance, if cheap shot ends and they do something that is on the global:
4.2 -> They do something
5.0 -> Your fifth move, but versus an unstunned opponent.
5.2 or 5.6ish (depending on class and haste) -> They do a new thing.

Versus with glyph:
4.7 -> They do something
5.0 -> Your fifth move, but versus an unstunned opponent.
5.7 -> Fast opponent
6.0 -> Your move
6.1 -> Slow opponent

So, I dunno. A big part of the glyph isn't the rogue's damage and moves at all, it's what your ally is doing. My partners are spriest and mistweaver, and I've had little luck with the cheap shot glyph (surprisingly), whereas it seems absolutely devastating when used against us, especially by hunter and rogue together.

[Gnu]

I still don't get why they didn't nerf DT directly by putting a CD or something. They could have reduced the dmg of ST as well if it was an issue but the low energy cost was nice to arrive on target with 5 CPs.

I don't like the cheap shot glyph nerf, 0.5 sec is ludicrous, I'll probably take something else.

Garrote silence nerf I can understand if it goes in the direction of nerfing blanket silences.

[Verain]

I still don't get why they didn't nerf DT directly by putting a CD or something. They could have reduced the dmg of ST as well if it was an issue but the low energy cost was nice to arrive on target with 5 CPs.

I'm pretty sure it's not about deadly throw, even though it looks like it will kick it in the dick. I think it's about times when you would ST in melee in pvp to get your setup timers running, and then pool and blast- something you could do faster with the less damaging 20 energy ST than hemo.

I don't like the cheap shot glyph nerf, 0.5 sec is ludicrous, I'll probably take something else.

I don't think it's out of line for a nerf. They could change the glyph to reduce the energy cost or something.

Garrote silence nerf I can understand if it goes in the direction of nerfing blanket silences.

It's intended as a rogue specific nerf. A 4.0 second silence is still probably a decent deal for like 30 energy. While I'll probably never take the CS glyph, the garrote glyph will still be a choice glyph versus caster teams.

[Evolixe]

That Shuriken Toss nerf was absolutely going to come.

And honestly.. who really believed they would keep it at doing double damage to higher range.. you can't really expect to be doing 80k ST's can you?
Be real, that would be way too much damage in short succession at range for a class that's not even ranged in the first place

Anyways, on the glyphs... Cheap shot is definitely going to be swapped out now for me. Cloak of Shadows Glyph on Melee teams (1 min cd painsupp with spell immunity, anyone?) or otherwise probebly either Gouge or Smoke Bomb against caster teams. Will have to experiment.

[JIMM-]

anyone knows if slice and dice affects shuriken toss auto attacks ?

[rogueMatthias]

This is horrible. Now even more people will use marked for death which will lead to massive amount of QQ on the forum for the burst it provides.

This SO much. Marked for Death is now going to be used across the board, which at the end of the day is probably going to make the "Waah, that rogue was in my frost ring and threw shurikens at me and didnt die, rogues are OP" crowd cry even more.

In its current form it IS op, but the nerfs are ott.

At the end of the day IT IS a final tree talent. It is meant to be powerful.

With these nerfs ST is looking more like something that should probably be baseline. I'm just dreading an incoming MfD nerf to try and make Shuriken Toss actually competitive with it after this :/