Holinka on Ret buffs in the future

[Nairobi]

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas. Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine. It'd be nice if rets were on par with rogues/shadow priests/mages, but I think everyone would be happier if they just realize that is never very likely to happen.

That's just the issue. We Rets resign ourselves to the realm of mediocrity, and then every so often get word from Blizz that they are aware of our plight and will be working to fix it. So we get our hopes up and keep paying/playing. We hone our abilities in random BGs, ROFLStomping undergeared FOTM rerolls and capping points in 2s because nobody wants us in 3s. We beg, borrow and steal to get into RBGs that lose-for-cap, since nobody in their right mind wants a Ret in RBGs. Even though we actually fare well in RBGs, the social stigma of Ret has actually caused people to leave RBG groups at the sight, on more than one occasion. But still, we press on, with the hopes that Blizz will hand down some buff to make us viable. Usually, that buff is just a recycled, watered down version of some other class ability that was deemed too lackluster to be given to them (TfB-style SOJ for 5.2, anyone?), or merely slap in the face that actually buffs Holy (Light's Hammer change, surely Ret will be wanted by ALL now. No?). Once in a while, its an actual buff with no strings attached (Glyph of TV), which is just enough to keep us holding on. But even we ret-zealots know that salvation will likely never come. We just keep the faith because we've put in too much to quit now.

It's strangely similar to religion, which is almost fitting.

[Reith]

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas.

there's something very wrong with you when you compare ret's situation to every single other spec you just mentioned. Holy Priests are healers just like Disc, Arcane Mages are DPS just like Frost, Blood DKs are TANKS, Enhance is the closest situation to Ret but they do technically have another DPS spec.

Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine. It'd be nice if rets were on par with rogues/shadow priests/mages, but I think everyone would be happier if they just realize that is never very likely to happen.

You don't know anything about Ret, clearly. It sounds like you've never even played Ret in PVP. Ret is TERRIBLE in RBGs. Awful. By far the worst bracket it performs in. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

[nyc81991]

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas. Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine. It'd be nice if rets were on par with rogues/shadow priests/mages, but I think everyone would be happier if they just realize that is never very likely to happen.

The difference between Ret and Holy Priest, Arcane mages and Blood Dk's is Ret Paladins are the only dps spec of the Paladin class. Holy priests are healers just like Disc, Arcane is dps just like Frost, And Blood Dk's are tanks so I'm not even sure why you put them in there.

Ret doesn't fit anywhere in Rbg's because its "toolbox" is the same as Holy.

[Nairobi]

there's something very wrong with you when you compare ret's situation to every single other spec you just mentioned. Holy Priests are healers just like Disc, Arcane Mages are DPS just like Frost, Blood DKs are TANKS, Enhance is the closest situation to Ret but they do technically have another DPS spec.

You don't know anything about Ret, clearly. It sounds like you've never even played Ret in PVP. Ret is TERRIBLE in RBGs. Awful. By far the worst bracket it performs in. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

The difference between Ret and Holy Priest, Arcane mages and Blood Dk's is Ret Paladins are the only dps spec of the Paladin class. Holy priests are healers just like Disc, Arcane is dps just like Frost, And Blood Dk's are tanks so I'm not even sure why you put them in there.

Ret doesn't fit anywhere in Rbg's because its "toolbox" is the same as Holy.

Echo...echo....echo.....

But still extremely poignant and accurate. When you have a class (perhaps the most popular class) pigeonholed into only 1 option for each of it's roles, you don't get the luxury of swapping between spec's based on needs. The problem is further exacerbated in PVP by 1) Holy being perenially OP, 2) Ret being perenially subpar and 3) Prot being nonexistant. So, as Blizzard has even SAID, the "solution" thus far has just been "if you're a paladin and you're sane, you go Holy for PVP".

Hardly a solution.

Holinka is at least posturing like he wants to remedy that with Ret, and with the "prot spec in PVP takes 50% more damage with the flag" nonsense, it may make prot spec's of all classes a moot point, rendering that argument dead.

[kosechi]

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas.

classes need to have a viable spec for every non tank role they are capable of performing. paladins have only one dps spec, which is why its even more vitally important that that dps spec is functional and viable.

its all well and good that holy is strong, but holy isn't the only role paladins can perform. shadow priests have a much stronger history of viability then ret does, imagine the outcry if shadow had as many shitty seasons as ret has had?

Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine.

are you playing the same game as the rest of us? ret is the least viable melee in rbgs, where melee are already completely unwanted.


its been my experience that melee does not exist in holinka's wow.
and the fact that ret has been playing with a butter knife while everyone else has tactical nukes tells me it NEEDS something that will 'impact the rest of the game'

ret needs to be differentiated from holy and it needs fixes to it's survivability.

-GIve ret it’s stun break on freedom back, ret is unusually vulnerable to cc, and unlike most melee lacks a short cd cc break. it would go a long way to helping ret defend itself against stun chains designed to counter it’s active healing, while also improving its utility value compared to a holy paladin
-Move the dispel effect from hand of sacrifice onto hand of salvation. sac already was used to mitigate damage on team mates, and dispelling also opens up a ret to a lethal hardswap while they continue to take sac damage. hand of salvation has had no real use since the threat fixes in cata, and would allow ret to benefit from it’s own utility.
-make emancipate and divine protection usable while silenced, its very easy to blow ret’s up in silences and no other melee can be neutered out of their gap closing abilities with silences.
-return divine protection to it’s cata form 20% magical/20% physical, glyphable for 40% magical. all melee need physical mitigation for pvp and pve.
-buff sacred shield, put it on sheath of light. ret has no passive mitigation from it’s tank stance unlike all the other tank capable hybrids, and it needs a way to reduce incoming damage while not in control. sacred shield needs to be a better ‘selfish’ alternative to selfless healer.
- change ret’s rather mediocre pvp 2 set to give it 10% passive damage reduction in righteous fury.
-repentance is an iconic ret ability, one that has been rendered completely useless to ret because of it’s cast time. either make repentance function differently for ret and holy, letting ret access a repentance that resembles it’s old ability ( instant, 1 min cd) and holy access it’s current form ( casted, 15 sec cd) or put it on selfless healer allowing ret to instantly cast it after the SH ramp time.

[Tangra]

I'm sure we will get something new next xpack, when everyone else gets even more and better new things... as usual... and you know it will just be some hand-me-down like mortal strike / disarm / silence. There hasn't been a non-cosmetic Ret ability, with any actual depth in functionality since.... ummm ever, not a single ret ability does anything but x damage, x healing, or generic cc effect. The day Ret gets something like spellsteal, symbiosis, dark simulacrum, a pet/guardian with actual special abilities, (God forbid the ability to control it)or anything even remotely complex and interesting in any way, is the day I eat my own shoes.

[Palatinus]

We just keep the faith because we've put in too much to quit now.

Try quitting, its good , I lost faith back in cata, MoP just made me quit. After not playing for a while can see clearer now just how much ret will never get 'viable'. The GC quote for why monks got buffed "because there is 5x more ret paladins" was hilarious and really enlightens you to how they balance the game >.<

This latest quote does nothing but prove that they are still doing ret balancing in the same old way, getting the tools we needed in the current expansion next expansion.

[Valedus]

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas. Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine. It'd be nice if rets were on par with rogues/shadow priests/mages, but I think everyone would be happier if they just realize that is never very likely to happen.

No, Ret doesn't do fine in RBG's. 2 warlocks, a shadow priest, a frost mage, a boomkin, and a frost DK is what 90% of 2k+ teams want.

It won't be something rotational guys, most likely it will be a utility cooldown or a debuff tacked on to one of our attacks.

[dremnit]

That's just the issue. We Rets resign ourselves to the realm of mediocrity, and then every so often get word from Blizz that they are aware of our plight and will be working to fix it. So we get our hopes up and keep paying/playing. We hone our abilities in random BGs, ROFLStomping undergeared FOTM rerolls and capping points in 2s because nobody wants us in 3s. We beg, borrow and steal to get into RBGs that lose-for-cap, since nobody in their right mind wants a Ret in RBGs. Even though we actually fare well in RBGs, the social stigma of Ret has actually caused people to leave RBG groups at the sight, on more than one occasion. But still, we press on, with the hopes that Blizz will hand down some buff to make us viable. Usually, that buff is just a recycled, watered down version of some other class ability that was deemed too lackluster to be given to them (TfB-style SOJ for 5.2, anyone?), or merely slap in the face that actually buffs Holy (Light's Hammer change, surely Ret will be wanted by ALL now. No?). Once in a while, its an actual buff with no strings attached (Glyph of TV), which is just enough to keep us holding on. But even we ret-zealots know that salvation will likely never come. We just keep the faith because we've put in too much to quit now.

It's strangely similar to religion, which is almost fitting.

or stockholm syndrome

[BLVCK]

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas. Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine. It'd be nice if rets were on par with rogues/shadow priests/mages, but I think everyone would be happier if they just realize that is never very likely to happen.

what everyone else said, +, enhance shamans are very arena viable right now

[Vash The Stampede]

Right now Ret's biggest issue is mobility. I know in PVE that my raid moves ahead of me and I have a hard time catching up. That's because I use Long Arm of the Law, which is great when I can Judge something, but terrible outside of fights. While Speed of Light and Pursuit of Justice are better for outside of fights, it's not worth having over Long Arm of the Law when In a fight.

[Sathen]

So, random thought, ever notice that Ret is spec of extreme binaries? I mean, high burst/low sustain damage, high defensive utility/low offensive utility, high active survivability/low passive survivability, high sustain mobility/low burst mobility? And the first three all have the same counter, too. Ret has high burst? Make him play defensive; focus the Ret. Ret has high defensive utility? Don't let him use it; focus the Ret. Ret has high active survivability? He will go down fast in a stun; focus the Ret. Maybe Ret should have a situation where its consistent, where you know it will always be decent (The SoL buff might help damage in that regards, though I still think Ret needs to loss a CD as well to make damage perfect).

ON TOPIC:
The problem with Ret in RBGs is one part melee and one part utility. Melee are just weak in there right now if you are not a tank or a Frost DK. Then our utility is high, single-target defensive utility which 1) I would say becomes weaker for a dps to use as the team gets larger and 2) is shared with Holy. Its nice that they agree that 5.2 was not enough, that something big is needed, but other Rets and I were saying that in the PTR thread. Hopefully they do something sooner rather than later.

[Regen]

Do you think every spec should expect to be viable in high-end arena? I don't see the same expectation level from Holy Priests, or Arcane Mages, or Blood DKs, or Enhance Shamans, or any other specs that see equal or worse representation in arenas. Ret's toolbox has always been better suited to RBGs where it does fine. It'd be nice if rets were on par with rogues/shadow priests/mages, but I think everyone would be happier if they just realize that is never very likely to happen.

Without clicking on page 2, where this was likely given the same response I'm about to give, I'm going to say you're comparing apples to oranges. A holy priest can go disc, he'll use the same gear, and cast similar spells, and still do some healing. An Arcane Mage can just go frost, still use the same gear, perform the same role, and have a similar play-style. Now, for paladins, this insinuates we'd be fine as holy in high-end arena. Which is a completely different set of gear, play, and role. A Mage being required to go from one DPS spec to another DPS spec is one thing, because of it's nearly identical similarity...but asking a ret paladin to switch to holy, that may not be his/her cup of tea. See why we're mad?

[kosechi]

Right now Ret's biggest issue is mobility. I know in PVE that my raid moves ahead of me and I have a hard time catching up. That's because I use Long Arm of the Law, which is great when I can Judge something, but terrible outside of fights. While Speed of Light and Pursuit of Justice are better for outside of fights, it's not worth having over Long Arm of the Law when In a fight.

i think ret's mobility is in a good place, the only problem is we end up locked into a boot enchant when we choose our t1 talent.

ON TOPIC:
The problem with Ret in RBGs is one part melee and one part utility. Melee are just weak in there right now if you are not a tank or a Frost DK. Then our utility is high, single-target defensive utility which 1) I would say becomes weaker for a dps to use as the team gets larger and 2) is shared with Holy. Its nice that they agree that 5.2 was not enough, that something big is needed, but other Rets and I were saying that in the PTR thread. Hopefully they do something sooner rather than later.

i would accept being a weak choice for rbgs if i was strong in arena, which was sort of what was the case in s11 , and is the case with most of the other melee, but ret isn't strong in arena.

pretty much every nice toy ret had in bc/wolk/cata has been either nerfed, taken away or given to holy for their exclusive use.

[Vathius]

Taking inquisition off the GCD is a good start for ret fixing.

[Basemath]

Taking inquisition off the GCD is a good start for ret fixing.

That would smooth things out a bit for PvE/PvP, but I don't think it will solve the core issue in PvP. Perhaps an alternative, or even an addition to it, is to give Inquisition some on use extra effect based on which seal you are using. I know Inquisition already gives us a nice buff, but its application feels like a punishment, especially so in PvP when focused. Maybe something in the veins of 'small burst' when using SoT, stronger the more stacks you have on the target. Some PvP utility for SoJ Inquisition, like immunity from stuns n snares for 2/3 seconds after using it. AoE damage for SoR. Weaker than Divine Storm but slightly stronger than the hammer.

I think this would also promote more interesting game-play. 2/4 targets simultaneously bursting at the use of Inquisition on half to full stacks of Censor. This plus a SoR effect would help buff our overall AoE. It would even add some more flavor to seal twisting. I only propose this for Ret but extending it to Prot (Immunity to snares n stuns on SoJ) might even allow it to start carrying flags in RBGs. Paladin is spamming Inquisition for free movement? Fear him. This would add some special flavor, similar and opposite to DKs' AMS.

As for Seal of Insight, it can be excluded all together since Ret rarely uses it, except for the occasional 2v2 when you go full-heals mode n you need the mana, and there is no melee you want to apply Justice on, or you're dueling a formidable tank. If it makes sense to give this change to Prot also, something will have to be thought up for SoI.

[Deleted]

Meh, it's still a big, shiny "hey look out, damage incoming in t-minus 10 seconds" effect. On a 1-min CD.

Vs.

Holy Prism, with a GCD that scales with haste, and a 20 sec CD on it that can either nuke/splash heal or heal/AOE dmg. It's so far ahead of ES in PVP in terms of utility, burst, and effectiveness it's not even a contest. LH changes, while paltry and actually more useful for HOLY than ret, weren't terrible.

No, what we need are actual survival CDs, less "gimmick heals" to be based around, and an actual melee tool-kit instead of a "pick 1 of 3 things needed for any melee" option we have now.

DivProt (with or without glyph) always makes you feel like a "grass is greener" cooldown. Glyphed, it seems like casters eat you for breakfast; unglyphed, you pray for no melee to come at you. Glyph of TV helped some, and I'm thankful for it, but we still go down after bubble drops/is dispelled.

Selfless Healer makes us walking bullseye's in arena; As if we needed more reason to get trained, now it's spam dispels on Ret to remove freedom/SH stacks so he can't offheal nuke, and train him so he has to WOG. Easiest kill target bar none, yet still random BG noobs cry "OP" at 3-stack FoL crits on people.

We cried for an interrupt outside of (dispellable) HoJ on a 1min CD, and finally got one 6 years later. We cried for a snare since jump street, finally got one 8 years later (not counting the 100% "snare" of SoJ). We cried for a gap-closer like every other melee. We cried for some sort of ranged CC. So, what do they do? "Here, we gave you ALL of what you are asking for" Wow, really? Thanks Blizz! "Sure, now just pick which one you want!" Trololol. "Oh, and we took away repentance, CD-redux on HoJ, and Long-Arm/PoJ in our talent sweep, and gave them to Holy. So be sure to pick which of those you want too".

I still play Ret in BGs/arena, and do OK. However, I get on my DK or Spriest or warrior, with no gear and can run circles around my Ret. I miss SOME of the classes abilities (namely our support for teammates, un-kitableness against baddies, and trolling with Bubble), but for actual DAMAGE DEALING, the class is stuck about 1-2 expansions in the past.

i totally agree with this post.

When posting, please remember to stay on topic and to contribute to the discussion. - Malthanis

[iktankniet]

Ret almost always was underwhelming in pvp. That has barely changed in any expansion afaik. the issue as i see it that paladins have too many abilities to use in pvp, it doesnt make sense. Other classes have 2/3 abilities to escape on a short cd and probably 1 or 2 on longer cd, which have more effect. how many abilities do paladins have atm and on longer cd's? i dont know, but too much abilities and too little or the wrong effect.

Then again, teaming up with a paladin provides extra/more survivability then with most other classes.

I can be wrong as i havent played paladins for more then 2 years, but this was pretty much the issue; too much support abilities

[Valedus]

I'm just not really sure what mechanic is even "new" enough that it would change how the game is played in RBG's. It just gives me the impression that they have big ideas. But... maybe I'm too hopeful.

[Icecold3000]

Ret's problems can be summed up in a number of ways;

First, the class has become 50% caster/ranged in essence; a Melee kiter/a paradox. Derps . I Know right ?
Then, we have too many attacks that hit for similar amounts.
Finally, Ret suffers alot so hard from MOP New Talent System (something which is not reflected in other hybrids such as Chamy or Druid)