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  1. #1

    Will the Holinkoaster Effect end next xpac?

    First let's define "Holinkoaster effect": Activision bought blizzard and Holinka assumed the PvP team back at cata, and that marked the downfall of WoW PvP as we know. a lot of bad changes happened over and over and despite a few people claiming "it wasnt holinka, it was decisions from the inside" his leaving may cause a future turn of events for the next expansion.

    A lista of things included in the Holinkoaster effect:
    • "Elitization" of PvP - removing 2v2 and 5v5, making it so only PvP mounts would remain character-bound (instead of account bound) and other changes based on "elitizing" the game were done since cata. The aim here was to make WoW PvP feel more about the competition and less about the experience itself, which diminished the interest of players on PvP over the years up until the moment that barely anyone wants to do it nowadays.
    • "Casual PvP is only for fun" - Removing rewards and incentive for normal players to do random battlegrounds and such is also a big issue here. Despite there being prestige progress (which still exists for rated), there is no progression or anything on doing Casual PvP such as arena skirmishes and random BGs, which caused the player base to stop doing random BGs.
    • "PvP Templates" - Having everyone being equal on PvP isn't really a bad thing, but when you remove customization entirely from the game and everyone is playing a game that is even less customizable than MOBAs things become a problem.
    • "PvP talents" - this one is a personal issue that I have. I kinda hated having PvP talents instead of a customizable normal talent, because it pushed players even further away from PvP as the rotations and gameplay from a few classes change completely from PvP to PvE with different abilities and such.
    • "No new rewards added to rated PvP, ever" - This is also another issue, since Holinka's (Or Whoever was in real charge) aim was to have PvP be only about the competition and not about the gear, and casual PvP being just about the fun, they also didn't care about giving PvPers any other real reward besides the "Gladiator" achievement for the top 0.5% and a mount they can't even use on their alts. This meant that PvP players lost the interest in doing rated PvP as there was no reward on doing so while the PvE rewards were distributed across the board with different mounts, transmogs and titles being constantly added to the game.

    All these changes, I think, pushed players away from PvP and all started with mister Holinka.
    So I call for your opinion: Now that he is gone, will we have a new light on PvP for the next expansion? Can a new light come even before that?

  2. #2
    Players are slowing learning WoW isnt really a pvp game. They would rather focus on overwatch/hearthstone for that.

    WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    [*]"Casual PvP is only for fun" - Removing rewards and incentive for normal players to do random battlegrounds and such is also a big issue here. Despite there being prestige progress (which still exists for rated), there is no progression or anything on doing Casual PvP such as arena skirmishes and random BGs, which caused the player base to stop doing random BGs.
    What kind of progression was removed exactly?

    I've been occasionally doing Random Bg's even when i was not into PvP at the moment, didn't see much progression beyond personal enjoyment and achievements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    [*]"PvP Templates" - Having everyone being equal on PvP isn't really a bad thing, but when you remove customization entirely from the game and everyone is playing a game that is even less customizable than MOBAs things become a problem.
    What kind of costumization was removed? The ability to choose which secondary stat to go for? was that such a huge variable in PvP? It's not like people just copied the best players on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    [*]"No new rewards added to rated PvP, ever" - This is also another issue, since Holinka's (Or Whoever was in real charge) aim was to have PvP be only about the competition and not about the gear, and casual PvP being just about the fun, they also didn't care about giving PvPers any other real reward besides the "Gladiator" achievement for the top 0.5% and a mount they can't even use on their alts. This meant that PvP players lost the interest in doing rated PvP as there was no reward on doing so while the PvE rewards were distributed across the board with different mounts, transmogs and titles being constantly added to the game.
    There hasn't been any serious reward to PvP except for Mounts since Wotlk, since then PvP Gear was pretty much just that, PvP Gear.


    I'm not saying PvP design is perfect, nor that there aren't any serious issues with PvP reward / design structure in general, but damn, if you even build the name of a dev into your title, you should be at least sure once he took over and for what timeframe he's sort of responsible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Players are slowing learning WoW isnt really a pvp game. They would rather focus on overwatch/hearthstone for that.
    Not to derail the thread, but despite playing Hearthstone and watching Hearthstone streams, i take issue in calling it a "PvP game", this game is most fun when not taken serious, at least in the regard that you consider it an E-sport or anything.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2017-10-10 at 07:57 PM.

  4. #4
    WoW will always struggle with PvP and it's never going to be balanced or fun like people think it should be. It has this weird dichotomy of wanting to be on a even foot being about skill and less about gear yet at the same time people want the gear and reward treadmill. The inherent joy of Player vs Player, at least to me, is the satisfaction of beating the other guy but people are too brainwashed into give me something for my effort instead of intrinsic rewards.

    As per your points:

    eltitism - pretty sure they made the pvp mounts (at least the saddle ones) account bound in 7.3

    casual pvp is only for fun - duh? what else is there? if you want a gear treadmill that's what PvE is for

    PvP templates - a good change but still not perfect. customization of stats in pvp lead to some really stupid things and ultimately classes being nerfed and unplayable. I'd rather have them tweak my template than having a roflstomp spec thats gutted because they cant do anything but nerf the entire class/spec (destro locks stacking mastery for uber bolts comes to mind)

    PvP talents - ill mostly agree with this. Lots of potential gone unused

    no pvp rewards added ever - again you need to check your philosophy on why you pvp and then come back. Do you play tennis/golf/basketball/baseball/soccer/ etc to get a fancy jersey or title or trophy or do you play for the satisfaction of winning?

  5. #5
    Immortal SL1200's Avatar
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    I thought he was off the wow team and onto something else at blizz. I don't think the game play will be affected by his departure.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.
    Or huge in scope and not-entirely-balanced-but-still-fun meshes of PvE and PvP like old-school AV.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Or huge in scope and not-entirely-balanced-but-still-fun meshes of PvE and PvP like old-school AV.
    People still run AV? huh...

    Havent had fun in there since the changes

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Felfuhrer View Post
    As per your points:

    eltitism - pretty sure they made the pvp mounts (at least the saddle ones) account bound in 7.3
    First, thanks for the response!
    Now I'll answer your points one by one: They didn't make the "hard" PvP mounts account bound, and that is what matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felfuhrer View Post
    casual pvp is only for fun - duh? what else is there? if you want a gear treadmill that's what PvE is for
    Even casual PvErs can get new and cool titles and mounts every new patch and so onwards with raiding. in casual PvP you not only don't get gear (or, the gear you get is shit) but you don't get to have new cool stuff every now and then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felfuhrer View Post
    PvP templates - a good change but still not perfect. customization of stats in pvp lead to some really stupid things and ultimately classes being nerfed and unplayable. I'd rather have them tweak my template than having a roflstomp spec thats gutted because they cant do anything but nerf the entire class/spec (destro locks stacking mastery for uber bolts comes to mind)
    Having templates do is cool, but what happens with current PvP talents and templates is that you have literally zero customization on it. Even PvP talents having choices, they are tuned to either specific stuff, or are completely shit that you need to pick a specific one that isn't shit. So you're only changing them to fight specific things (like there is a talent that lets you blunt physical dps, so you use it vs physical dps and use generic shit vs caster)). Having customization is cool, even when you're following cookie cutter specs, and this doesn't happen with PvP talents, I actually believe they were a waste.
    If there were customizable "PVP Enhancements" things would be a lot cooler (like PvE legendaries), like talents to boost already usable spells in PvE and open world combined with stats-choice optimization things would be much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Felfuhrer View Post
    PvP talents - ill mostly agree with this. Lots of potential gone unused
    yey

    Quote Originally Posted by Felfuhrer View Post
    no pvp rewards added ever - again you need to check your philosophy on why you pvp and then come back. Do you play tennis/golf/basketball/baseball/soccer/ etc to get a fancy jersey or title or trophy or do you play for the satisfaction of winning?
    its not the same thing, you get all these things on other modes of the game except that you get extras in everything you do EXCEPT in PvP. You could literally say the same for beating a boss on a Raid, but nobody would Raid "just for the satisfaction of raiding" if there were no rewards at all.


    If PvE reward system was taken like PvP one is right now and PvP like PvE, everyone would PvP and nobody would PvE.
    Last edited by Nuba; 2017-10-10 at 10:01 PM.

  9. #9
    Scarab Lord jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    People still run AV? huh...

    Havent had fun in there since the changes
    Nope, I meant old AV like the way it used to be in Vanilla. For a lot of people that was the most fun WoW PVP has ever been, and I am inclined to agree (though I rank all three original BGs as the best ones, each one giving a different, fun way to play).
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Players are slowing learning WoW isnt really a pvp game. They would rather focus on overwatch/hearthstone for that.

    WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.
    If they haven't realized this over the last decade I doubt they will now. This is also by far the most attention pvp has gotten since arena was added in BC. People might not like what was done, but way more work was put into pvp then we have seen for a very long time.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Nope, I meant old AV like the way it used to be in Vanilla. For a lot of people that was the most fun WoW PVP has ever been, and I am inclined to agree (though I rank all three original BGs as the best ones, each one giving a different, fun way to play).
    Those were the days. Back when players actually wanted to brawl on the roads and back cap towers for hours on end. Throwing snowballs to hit people off of bridges.

    Now it may as well be a pve dungeon with everyone rushing to the end boss and killing him like any other mob.

  12. #12
    Doubt I don't think holinka actually had a say in pvp, and just was pr talking head.

  13. #13
    Random gear is the killer above all else. Templates and talents can be fixed (or removed and reworked) but until Blizz tones down RNG gearing this is going to drive players away from PVP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.
    7.2 We fly!!!

  14. #14
    A) Just let me buy current (910 Relinquished) gear tokens with 'Marks of Honor' in a ratio that's reasonable.

    B) Incorporate loot spec in creating items from tokens. No friggin' Versatility everywhere...

    C) Reduce stun chanes

    = PVP fixed.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Players are slowing learning WoW isnt really a pvp game. They would rather focus on overwatch/hearthstone for that.

    WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.

    PvPers (unlike most of the PvE crow) understand that there is no one single part of the game. WoW is a multifaceted game. Dungeons and raiding are not what this game is about. Pull oyur head out of your fartbox. Just because that is what you like doesn't mean that it is the defining nature of the game. If the only people that play this game just for raiding and dungeons existed, this game would be far more barren than you and/or I think it would be.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Holinka wasn't in charge of class design and that was the ultimate deciding factor on how good PvP would be.
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2017-10-12 at 06:17 AM.

  17. #17
    Reduce 1/3 of Melee DMG and all CC share DR

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Holinka wasn't in charge of class design and that was the ultimate deciding factor on how good PvP would be.
    Pretty much this. PvP was really alive - and fun - until Warlords of Draenor.

    Class butchering and catering to beginners is the greatest mistake they ever made about PvP.

  19. #19
    Immortal Saverem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    Players are slowing learning WoW isnt really a pvp game. They would rather focus on overwatch/hearthstone for that.

    WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.
    That's mostly because of their execution of PvP. There are plenty of MMOs that had great PvP. DAoC comes to mind as having the best PvP. They used a 3 faction system which greatly helped with the balance. The 2 weaker factions could join up to take out the stronger one, so the matches were always balanced.
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
    "The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time" ~ Jesus of Nazareth
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    WoW is about dungeons and raiding / being social with a guild mostly.
    WoW is about many different things to many different people. Blanket statements like this don't really work.

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