Garrosh..disappointment

[masterman]

Alright so, I was recently re-leveling my monk through horde areas and there are at least two notable instances where Garrosh enforces moral beliefs that COMPLETELY conflict with his current state. As much as people hate leveling, and as hard as it is to make a character seem likable when he was already seen as hot headed and brash before hand, I dont understand what could have possibly occurred between Garrosh in Stonetalon/Twight Highlands and Garrosh now.

If anyone remembers, he kills one of his Generals for dropping a bomb on innocents (conflicting with him bombing theramore).

In Twilight Highlands, he tries to show his leadership and fearlessness by riding into the Highlands aboard a Warship with the player.

This Garrosh...it's like they kept the same character model and did a 180 on everything that he had worked for in the previous expansion.

they needed an end boss and just went with him. People don't play this game for the lore they play it to get higher level gear

[Deleted]

That and he turned on the Tauren in the area to try to cover up what he did. The bomb itself was never the problem and I'm surprised people still get that wrong.

The problem with the Tauren was pretty much the nail on the coffin.

As much Garrosh is a tyrant and a warmonger without barriers, he never attacked civilian targets. Garrosh hates dumb generals and Krom'gar's actions were all about dumb.


Of course, on topic, much as happened since then, with Garrosh always failing to achieve his own goals and campaigns, like Ashenvale and Kalimdor Blockade.

[ZenX]

Just as Shao-hao recites:

"Pride, it is the most insidiuous of Sha.
It is good until it is bad.
...and then it is more than dangerous than all of the others combined."

Garrosh was proud of his people and wanted to see them become proud of him. However, everytime he took a hit on his path to make his people proud, he began compromising his values, his honor.
In the end, it is his Pride that had gone bad to the point that he is committing actions akin to atrocities such as the Nuking of the Theramore, butchering of Prince Anduin and killing trolls regardless of them being his people as he is the Warchief of the Horde.

Story of Garrosh thus far is a good one, only reason people really don't understand is due to a literal misunderstanding of what has been going on.

...and if you are really hell bent on the lore, and spend your time here preaching on how you don't like Garrosh's storyline here, go read up on the context on Shattering, Wolfheart and the Tides of War for clarification

[Trassk]

Quit making threads like these, you'll attract traa...oh, nevermind.

ooooh look its a running joke, someone posts a thread about Garrosh, Trassk shows up to have an opinion on it, well others post nothing about the thread and just posts on it to flame Trassk for making a point. Yeah, we know how this usually runs.

[Glaziola]

Theres really no need to kill him just banish him from the horde or de-throne him.
As a proud member of the horde it just doesnt seem right.

[Trassk]

Theres really no need to kill him just banish him from the horde or de-throne him.
As a proud member of the horde it just doesnt seem right.

That though is the point of the story with Garrosh that people haven't figured out, the story of pride, how pride is good, until he turns bad, and then its worse then all the other dark emotions.

Garrosh represents pride, and in his story arch over the expansions, we have seen what pride does when it slowly corrupts someone, how they begin to narrow the sight on everything around them, until they end up with nothing, how they believe only what they say matters and anyone else can die for not following what he says. That is pride, and we are seeing how Garrosh is the worst example.

Infact, if you look back on warcraft lore, you could even find reference to another character who made the same mistakes, and ended up with nothing in the end, that being Ner'zhul. He held pride for the horde when he became warchief, but over time he slowly cut away the fat from the horde, until there was nothing left, and he even turned his back on the few orcs still following him.

Characters become corrupted, and they do it because of there own mistakes.

[Pua]

Garrosh represents pride, and in his story arch over the expansions, we have seen what pride does when it slowly corrupts someone, how they begin to narrow the sight on everything around them, until they end up with nothing, how they believe only what they say matters and anyone else can die for not following what he says. That is pride, and we are seeing how Garrosh is the worst example.

My problem with this is that it's tired, Trassk; not misunderstood.

The theme of corruption, either by Old Gods or by a self-actuated deadly sin, is simply a way of tossing a character in the bin without ever giving that character the chance to just be imperfect. I actually agree with your post in the main, and would even go as far as saying it was Arthas' pride that first corrupted him before coming into contact with Ner'zhul.

But how many more times can we dispatch major characters in this way? Deathwing was dealt with so ham-fistedly it still irritates me to this day.

THAT is my problem with Garrosh. He's been so shamelessly shoved under the bus, that it frustrates me because he could have been so much more. What's worse is that they'll probably reinstate or martyr Thrall before finally being done with Garrosh, and the Horde effectively hasn't moved on at all (particularly if Thrall returns).

That's an awful lot of development for effectively no benefit. In fact, you could go further and argue that it makes orcs look utterly stupid given that they already knew where the path of cold-hearted butchery led (wiggle room for the generational gap, of course).

[Dreknar20]

This Garrosh...it's like they kept the same character model and did a 180 on everything that he had worked for in the previous expansion.

Because he...you know....changed?
Kinda like how Jaina, Thrall, Varian, Deathwing all changed. People usually dont stay the same person through out the years

---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 10:30 PM ----------

THAT is my problem with Garrosh. He's been so shamelessly shoved under the bus, that it frustrates me because he could have been so much more. What's worse is that they'll probably reinstate or martyr Thrall before finally being done with Garrosh, and the Horde effectively hasn't moved on at all (particularly if Thrall returns)..

Totally agree. Fucking loved Hellscream during Cata, and was severely dissapointted the changes he went through during MoP.

Plus this whole arch of the story-line of civil war, of killing fellow Horde inside Horde territory, is not something I can really enjoy as a Horde player

[Trassk]

My problem with this is that it's tired, Trassk; not misunderstood.

The theme of corruption, either by Old Gods or by a self-actuated deadly sin, is simply a way of tossing a character in the bin without ever giving that character the chance to just be imperfect. I actually agree with your post in the main, and would even go as far as saying it was Arthas' pride that first corrupted him before coming into contact with Ner'zhul.

But how many more times can we dispatch major characters in this way? Deathwing was dealt with so ham-fistedly it still irritates me to this day.

THAT is my problem with Garrosh. He's been so shamelessly shoved under the bus, that it frustrates me because he could have been so much more. What's worse is that they'll probably reinstate or martyr Thrall before finally being done with Garrosh, and the Horde effectively hasn't moved on at all (particularly if Thrall returns).

That's an awful lot of development for effectively no benefit. In fact, you could go further and argue that it makes orcs look utterly stupid given that they already knew where the path of cold-hearted butchery led (wiggle room for the generational gap, of course).

I'll agree in one way that yes, it is a story of a characters downfall, but it does have other layers to it. You can argue that characters like Arthas and Illidan and deathwing fell from grace, they were holdsome characters at first that literally fell to corruption and damnation. Garrosh, despite his station as warchief, was not loved by the horde as one, only the orcs, well the rest of the horde distrusted him, right up to now outright hating him. So he wasn't a perfect or loved character, he was already a problem and he just got worse, which if anything was Garrosh's natural progression as a character.

I will say that I honestly never saw the point in having Garrosh in the story, if all they could do with him was make him into an angry jerk, but I'm well past caring about that.

And as for Thrall, the Thrall who left the horde is now a different Thrall the one one fighting the kor'kron alongside chen and vol'jin. As the horde itself needs to change from what it was and better itself, having someone like Thrall whos gone though his own growing and maturing as a character would fit better in whats to come. You need a character like Thrall in the horde to tell them, its time to get there shit sorted abd band together, since the legions on the horizon. you need a character who can pull that.. and as much as I love vol'jin, I really, don't see him having the pulling power to get the horde ready for that.
His rebellion right now is good, its just us joining him to take down Garrosh, he isn't commandering the horde into one unit to get this done, so Vol'jin doesn't strike me as someone who can get the horde ready to fight the legion upon return.

---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:51 PM ----------

Totally agree. Fucking loved Hellscream during Cata, and was severely dissapointted the changes he went through during MoP.

Plus this whole arch of the story-line of civil war, of killing fellow Horde inside Horde territory, is not something I can really enjoy as a Horde player

Well I don't like seeing orcs reduced as just cannon fodder for Garrosh, I just try to focus on the fact these are orcs who don't care anymore what the horde means, and are no better then the fel orcs I killed in outland claiming there horde was the true one.

[Dreknar20]

Characters become corrupted, and they do it because of there own mistakes.

In essence he is corrupted by his lust for glory and power
or his lust for power due to glory

---------- Post added 2013-04-21 at 11:07 PM ----------

His rebellion right now is good, its just us joining him to take down Garrosh, he isn't commandering the horde into one unit to get this done, so Vol'jin doesn't strike me as someone who can get the horde ready to fight the legion upon return..

Plus, Ogrimmar may be the de facto capitol of the Horde, but it is also the capitol of the Orcs, would rather seed an Orc there than a troll

[Pua]

Garrosh, despite his station as warchief, was not loved by the horde as one, only the orcs, well the rest of the horde distrusted him, right up to now outright hating him. So he wasn't a perfect or loved character, he was already a problem and he just got worse, which if anything was Garrosh's natural progression as a character.

I personally don’t think it was his natural progression, but that depends on where you think his story begins. There were far more natural places to take him after Nagrand, and genocide would never be on my list; it’s in second place only to the cliché of corruption.

I will say that I honestly never saw the point in having Garrosh in the story, if all they could do with him was make him into an angry jerk, but I'm well past caring about that.

This is my biggest complaint, and why I think Garrosh was never supposed to end up in this boat (or there’s a twist in the tail coming). Essentially, the moral of the story is don’t be a warmongering jackass, or you’re going to get a rude awakening. The problem here is that the Horde, particularly the orcs, are acutely aware of this and didn’t need another lesson of its type. Telling it again is a waste of ink, and the shades of grey between being aggressive and being a butcher mean the writers simply didn’t have to go this route with Garrosh.

It pisses me off that they have.

And as for Thrall, the Thrall who left the horde is now a different Thrall the one one fighting the kor'kron alongside chen and vol'jin. As the horde itself needs to change from what it was and better itself, having someone like Thrall whos gone though his own growing and maturing as a character would fit better in whats to come.

Again, however, it’s history repeating; Thrall coming to save the orcs from barbarism has been done (though the first time it was also listlessness). Putting aside my issues with how bad an idea this is for both the Horde and Alliance story-wise, I just don’t think the new version of Thrall can lead the Horde without shedding the mantle of World-Shaman. In the pre-Cataclysm “event”, they even said he was wearing the tools of war and this differentiation is unlikely to go away.

You need a character like Thrall in the horde to tell them, its time to get there shit sorted abd band together, since the legions on the horizon. you need a character who can pull that.. and as much as I love vol'jin, I really, don't see him having the pulling power to get the horde ready for that.

Because it’s the Burning Legion, I’m slowly coming round to the idea of Lorth’emar… And I know how that sounds. Thrall, as a shaman, can certainly advise a non-orc Warchief (and undoubtedly an orcish leader for the orcs themselves), just as Drek’thar advised him.

His rebellion right now is good, its just us joining him to take down Garrosh, he isn't commandering the horde into one unit to get this done, so Vol'jin doesn't strike me as someone who can get the horde ready to fight the legion upon return.

Ah, but he is; certainly from what I’ve seen, anyway. Bringing Baine into the picture is a part of this, as is Thrall’s endorsement of him. If you put yourself into Azeroth, Sylvanas would be unlikely to have any issues with Vol’jin either. The only person that might would be Lorth’emar… Which might open up a new direction.

[Faroth]

If anyone remembers, he kills one of his Generals for dropping a bomb on innocents (conflicting with him bombing theramore).

No warning in Stonetalon and the bomb was dropped on a school of noncombatant druids.
Theramore he amassed an army and sat there for days, he sent ships out that Theramore could see waiting at the edge of their borders, he gave ample time for civilians to be evacuated (which the Alliance did), and drew military commanders to Theramore before attacking. It was purely a tactical strike, no matter how irreputable the method was.

In Twilight Highlands, he tries to show his leadership and fearlessness by riding into the Highlands aboard a Warship with the player.

He's been marching into combat himself ever since. He fought on the front lines in Ashenvale, he fought in the front lines in Theramore, etc.

Despite all his plans and strategies, he keeps failing to find victory. As he's grown more frustrated, he's growing more extreme in his desperation. There's no 180 here, players just want to think everything he did pre-MoP was noble and respectable and everything he's done post-Cata is 100% reprehensible. It's been a gradual process and there's still logic that aligns with what we've seen in the past.

It's not hard to rationalize most of his actions if you put yourself in his position and think of it from the right point of view. Granted, it's an "ends justify the means" point of view, but that's what he's developed as he's grown frustrated in his failures.

My only disappointment with all of it is that players are going to wrongfully assume that the sha corrupted Garrosh when they didn't. The sha don't corrupt anything, they manifest and take physical embodiment because the emotion is already there. That's what I actually like about the Garrosh story, it's a true corruption story plain and simply founded in "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

The sha of pride is certainly what will empower Garrosh further and begin to take over him, but it's Garrosh's own personality that is driving everything and brought things here, not a sha controlling him.

Likewise with the mantids. The sha eventually took control of the queen, but her own fear caused its embodiment to grow that powerful in the first place.

[Nomial17]

Lot's of really great points raised here. I can see the other side of the argument now as well. Thats fair. It's just odd for blizzard to have such...painful repetition in their story. Everyones ready to take Garrosh out, everyone's biting at the bit to see their blades cut through him...but...something about this story seems so...misplaced. Like for Deathwing and LK there was no "why" are they doing this and there wasn't any grey area in the community as to why you were attempting to eliminate them...with garrosh, its different, despite everything he's done up to now, I can still his choices as grey and i guess the best word for this may be "shadowed". Maybe i'm wrong and just looking into this far to much, but Garrosh's story so far doesn't seem like it could possibly meet its end in 5.4. Even as a "temp" warchief, he was WARCHIEF...of the horde. That's not a character i'd imagine they would just throw to the sidelines... (Kae'thas isnt a real comparison, he wasn't every leading the BE from a player point of view"

[Phasma]

Wouldn't it be a huge plot twist if Garrosh was actually a member of the Black Dragonflight disguised as an orc?

or a Dreadlord...

On second thought, I don't think Blizzard would do that...

[Deleted]

I dont understand what could have possibly occurred between Garrosh in Stonetalon/Twight Highlands and Garrosh now.

He set foot on Pandaria, where the Sha can influence people. Pride is good, until it is bad, yadda yadda. Yeah, it is a big personality twist but it was meant like this.

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 02:36 PM ----------

My only disappointment with all of it is that players are going to wrongfully assume that the sha corrupted Garrosh when they didn't. The sha don't corrupt anything, they manifest and take physical embodiment because the emotion is already there. That's what I actually like about the Garrosh story, it's a true corruption story plain and simply founded in "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

It's true that the emotion needs to be there already for the Sha to manifest itself. But I do believe once they manifest they can influence people to become even darker.

The Horde intro in Pandaria is a good example of this. Nazgrim already had the emotion after the admiral or general fled, but he suddenly becomes this raging beast as the Sha take over. I think Garrosh already had pride but since he set foot on Pandaria he was susceptible for the Sha of Pride, that gradually influenced and darkened his actions and thoughts.

[Majiinx]

I'm glad somebody made this thread. I' can see this being a setup for the next xpac and I wonder if he is being manipulated/corrupted and being used by the burning legion (KJ or Sargeras possibly?) which could lead us into that story. Defiantly hoping to see another burning legion xpac

[Dreknar20]

No warning in Stonetalon and the bomb was dropped on a school of noncombatant druids.
Theramore he amassed an army and sat there for days, he sent ships out that Theramore could see waiting at the edge of their borders, he gave ample time for civilians to be evacuated (which the Alliance did), and drew military commanders to Theramore before attacking. It was purely a tactical strike, no matter how irreputable the method was.

Thats the thing with a lot of Blizzards plots
Garrosh with Theramore, Arthas with Stratholme, Mengsk with Tarsonis
Killing civilians wsnt what they were trying to achieve, it was merely a nasty side effect, a side effect they deemed acceptable to their goals

---------- Post added 2013-04-22 at 08:26 PM ----------

I dont understand what could have possibly occurred between Garrosh in Stonetalon/Twight Highlands and Garrosh now.
.

Time?
Beginning of Cata to MoP is at least a year or so.
Just because a player isnt interacting with a character dsnt mean they arnt doing anything or stuff isnt happening

[Arrashi]

Thats the thing with a lot of Blizzards plots
Garrosh with Theramore, Arthas with Stratholme, Mengsk with Tarsonis
Killing civilians wsnt what they were trying to achieve, it was merely a nasty side effect, a side effect they deemed acceptable to their goals

Well technically mengsk wanted to kill civilians that was part of his plan to overthrow confederation.

[Kioshi]

Quit making threads like these, you'll attract traa...oh, nevermind.

That was what I was thinking when I saw this post, then pow a few posts down..... too late.... lol

[alexday14]

They've got some bullshit about how he's being corrupted by Sha.. But to be honest with you, Garrosh has been marching down this road ever since Thrall decided not to return as Warchief.