What's so wrong with appealing to the 'casual' player?

[Deleted]

They can appeal to both, its just making sure that one does not detract from the other. I think blizzard is getting better at stuff like this as time goes on.

Yep, I agree with that. Diversity is a great thing.

[Osmeric]

I understand this arguement but don't agree with it. Just because you pay for a game doesn't mean you're entitled to win the game. WoW is in no way compelled to make the game for "hardcores" or "casuals".

They are compelled by business realities to satisfy the larger number of customers. No, no one is entitled to win, but if that means Blizzard loses business, you can be sure they will let people win. This is why LFR exists at all, you know -- not entitlement, but brute consumer power coercing the developers into changing course.

[urasim]

Since everyone has their own definition of the word to suit their own purposes, let's start with the Merriam Webster dictionary definition shall we?

Based on the above definition, I don't believe that the term casual can be defined by the amount of time one spends playing WoW. It is about the player's approach and effort put in.

I was referring to the definition that Blizzard (well, all video game developers) has given us.

I suspect most of these individuals are either lying about how much effort and practice time they put into their gaming while others are not watching, or they are not nearly as amazing as you think they are.

No need to be overly defensive and hostile. Some people are just better at certain things than others. The casuals that I mentions have better situational awareness (among other great attributes) then the hardcores. Making them better at games. It's the same for people who play chess their entire lives and these kids come up and beat them. Does that mean that the kids lied about how much they played? lol, no! They are kids and there is no way they could have played as much as the older chess players. There is examples of this throughout history. Please stop assuming everyone is equal when everyone is NOT equal.

There is only so much skill that experience can give you before someone with the raw talent comes and knocks you on your ass.

Playing WoW is a skill. And like any skill it can be improved with directed effort. It's that simple. Sure, some people will improve faster than others, and some people will enjoy the effort which makes improving a lot easier for them but the fact remains: You don't get good at something like WoW without putting in a lot of time.

Playing WoW is NOT a skill... There are so many bad players in the best guilds... Was watching a stream of one of the best guilds in the world and they had players standing in stuff they shouldn't, getting killed by things they needed to avoid, and just overall preforming worse than the others.

Hell, I have always been in the best guild on my server, and I have seen the tiers of players first hand. Being a recruitment officer. Most WoW players fall into the category of mediocre players. I am sorry, but it's true. Out of every hundred or so gamers that I recruit there is a shining gem that towers all the other players in performance. Sadly, those players tend to quit faster then the mediocre players.

[melodramocracy]

This post is ironic to me because personally I have never seen a thread on these forums asking Blizzard to nerf normal or hardmode raids. I do however see 1-3 threads each week on these forums asking Blizzard to increase the difficulty of everything in the game, threads bashing LFR players, and asking for LFR to be removed from the game.

Then you would be advised to scroll down to the Raids forum.

[Terahertz]

Well...
Nothing, really. Being casual-friendly is, on the whole, very good for a game that promotes just having fun with one another.

There are a few things I'm personally unhappy about, however:
Gear. I'm sorry, but I'm so incredibly sick of grinding. Rep grinding, valor grinding... I want all my initial gear to come from heroics, and hop into LFR. Seriously. I want to play more, and grind less. Now; this is a 'casual' thing. People who couldn't play as much would have the option of still getting gear through grinding for rep... But in my opinion, that's a really casual-unfriendly way to go about it.
...
Actually, that about sums it up. Grinding is just not fun.

Agreed, I seriously hate all these points you get through quests and finishing dungeons. Not even the points themself I hate, just the fact there's a freaking cap. There's literally a cap on everything in WoW. Want to do lots of BGs to save up for a whole set of PvP armor? JK 4k honor cap. Want to save up lots of justice points for heirlooms/honor point conversion? Loljk 4k cap. Oh, I see you're doing lots of dailies, JK 1.25k(?) valor point capped for this week. Oh, you're doing awesome in arenas this week.. it'd be a shame if you could only get a fixed amount of conquest points.

I'm seriously sick and tired of all these caps preventing people from doing more. The caps feel mandatory to get, because once you haven't capped for the week, you're technically falling behind on others points-wise. Let people play on their own casual/hardcore pace. What does it matter if one person farms pre-raid/arena gear in one week. :/

[Halicia]

Really, what's so wrong with the direction WoW has been going in for the last 3 xpacks?

At least on my server, the opposite of what you've described happened.

In WotLK you could go to trade and get 25 people for ICC (or previous raid tiers) and clear at least a few bosses, if not the whole instance depending on how long the tier had been out.

Now, you can't even GET 25 people to raid together, in a guild or otherwise. I think there's one, maybe two, 25man guilds total on my server and one of them only fields that many people by having NO standards of performance or behavior. If you happen to convince 10 people on the server to raid, you're lucky if they can get the first boss down, and the previous tier was them same way. There were very few guilds that even got to normal ToES while it was current.

The complexity of the bosses now exceeds the complexity of end bosses before, and the raids have gotten even more linear.

If you want to raid on this server, your choice of communities is limited at best... and that doesn't even ensure you have a raiding slot in the guild.

[cabyio]

The ideal game would enable you to do group content, with group social interactions, but without onerous obligations or scheduling.

The obligations and scheduling are an issue that is brought forth precisely because you are doing group content. Any time you are doing something with other people you have to schedule. Not really the game's fault. If you want to do stuff with random strangers sure (lfr), but if you want to play with people you actually trust to do a good job and not waste your time... scheduling and "obligations" are the cost you pay.

This probably would involve going beyond the guild model, to a more network-like system of social connections, as well as improved automated sytems for detection and discouragement of anti-social behaviors.

Simply enabling everyone to have a journal of their interactions with others, recording who did things well/poorly, and who helped and who was a jerk, would be useful. There's no reason this couldn't be built into the game. It could even be used to mine information on problem players: if many people rate someone as a jerk, maybe GMs could monitor them.

Are you kidding me? You want the GMs to be the meany police? "That guy was rude to me... you should kick him outta the game... booo hooo". If I want to be a jackass to someone, that is my right. Its ridiculous to want to police that behavior, it happens, and if someone is too delicate a flower to handle it maybe they should go be a hermit.

[Osmeric]

Are you kidding me? You want the GMs to be the meany police? "That guy was rude to me... you should kick him outta the game... booo hooo". If I want to be a jackass to someone, that is my right. Its ridiculous to want to police that behavior, it happens, and if someone is too delicate a flower to handle it maybe they should go be a hermit.

The GMs can monitor for behaviors that violate the ToS; presumably low ratings would correlate with ToS violation (even if the things people are objecting to many not violate the ToS).

The problem with GM monitoring is generally that it's hard to focus it down to the cases where it's likely to pay off. This kind of automated system could provide the data to help with that, making it more cost effective.

The obligations and scheduling are an issue that is brought forth precisely because you are doing group content. Any time you are doing something with other people you have to schedule.

I'm not convinced this needs to be true. I think there are other possibilities between "LFR with anyone" and "rigidly scheduled guild events".

[cabyio]

The GMs can monitor for behaviors that violate the ToS; presumably low ratings would correlate with ToS violation (even if the things people are objecting to many not violate the ToS).

The problem with GM monitoring is generally that it's hard to focus it down to the cases where it's likely to pay off. This kind of automated system could provide the data to help with that, making it more cost effective.



I'm not convinced this needs to be true. I think there are other possibilities between "LFR with anyone" and "rigidly scheduled guild events".

I just don't think it should be the GM's problem if people are being "mean". People are too fucking sensitive now days. Maybe someone was rude to you because you were sucking ass and wasting their time? So in reality you were the rude one first.

I don't see the issue with scheduled events. That's why you find a guild with people that have somewhat similar schedules so its easier to set dates and times to raid.

[melodramocracy]

The GMs can monitor for behaviors that violate the ToS; presumably low ratings would correlate with ToS violation (even if the things people are objecting to many not violate the ToS).

The problem with GM monitoring is generally that it's hard to focus it down to the cases where it's likely to pay off. This kind of automated system could provide the data to help with that, making it more cost effective.

The far better and more interesting solution is a game system where players can self-police to a great extent. But WoW has never been built for that sort of thing. Instead of allowing players to exhibit bad behavior at the risk of retribution from others, we're instead insulated from such things as much as possible. And name / server changes mean that a reputation, good or bad, is entirely meaningless.

[Crym]

See..this is what I don't get. There still is hard stuff.

Largely people who talk about this game being "too easy" don't have many hard-mode achievements. At least not until after the cutting-edge guilds have perfected a farming strategy that they can follow to the letter and, after months of wipes, get through it.

A lot of MMO players don't really want hard stuff. They want stuff they can do that others cannot (and for those things to be more rewarding). When something is challenging they may not be able to do it either. When it's largely a matter of time commitment they can, but it keeps the "dirty casuals" who wouldn't be willing to mindlessly grind as long from "achieving" what they did.

The players that actually want challenges are the ones in the guilds pushing serious progress in Hard Modes or crazy high arena/rated battleground ratings and aren't worried that casual players get LFR, iLvL capped random battlegrounds, or pet battles.

[Zuben]

What doesn't serve you is at best of no consequence to you and at worst may even take from you. Thus hatred.

[underdogba]

I'm not sure that the belief that WoW is really appealing to the casual player is at all in line with the reality of the raiding game.

The MoP normal mode raids are generally way overtuned in comparison to all the normal mode raids since the whole normal vs heroic mode mechanic was invented. A lot of guilds that were doing at least full clears of regular modes with some or even most heroics in Cata content are somewhere in the 4/12 - 6/12 range right now in ToT. Many guilds that were 8/8 Heroic DS completely pre-nerf in Cata often didn't even kill Empress until 5.1 or later.

[isadorr]

I just don't think it should be the GM's problem if people are being "mean". People are too fucking sensitive now days. Maybe someone was rude to you because you were sucking ass and wasting their time? So in reality you were the rude one first.

I don't see the issue with scheduled events. That's why you find a guild with people that have somewhat similar schedules so its easier to set dates and times to raid.

No shit, its like playing with little babies who have the mentality of a child along with their playing skill. Casuals whine and cry more than anyone in Wow. He said mean thing to me mommy. He said we are bad because i stand in fire. I cant pay attention for any amount of time and he makes fun of me. I cant figure out how to use 3-4 buttons and cds while not standing in fire. Are adults saying that they cant comprehend a simple game?

Are they saying that they arent smart enough to play a video game? Of course they dont have the time yet you will watch them farm mounts, pets and other trivial things then whine about wow taking too much time.

I will be glad when Titan comes out and the daycare that Wow is can be left to them.

---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 09:21 PM ----------

I'm not sure that the belief that WoW is really appealing to the casual player is at all in line with the reality of the raiding game.

The MoP normal mode raids are generally way overtuned in comparison to all the normal mode raids since the whole normal vs heroic mode mechanic was invented. A lot of guilds that were doing at least full clears of regular modes with some or even most heroics in Cata content are somewhere in the 4/12 - 6/12 range right now in ToT. Many guilds that were 8/8 Heroic DS completely pre-nerf in Cata often didn't even kill Empress until 5.1 or later.

So get a better raid comp. Look at numbers and see why they arent higher or why they are really low. Replace people. Some specs/classes did better in one tier and worse in another, that is Wow. Replace people who arent pulling the number they should. None of this is new information and when people link logs, it all comes out as to why they arent progressoing. If you want to play with players you know are bad but are you friend, then progression isnt your goal. So the difficulty of content shouldnt matter as much. If you replaced the bad classes/players you would progress.

---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 09:25 PM ----------

The far better and more interesting solution is a game system where players can self-police to a great extent. But WoW has never been built for that sort of thing. Instead of allowing players to exhibit bad behavior at the risk of retribution from others, we're instead insulated from such things as much as possible. And name / server changes mean that a reputation, good or bad, is entirely meaningless.

That would never work. You get someone overly zealous at saving the world or really religious, they are going to take things far too seriously. The ironic thing is that the bad players that cause wipes, or have really bad numbers are the ones holding up the other people in the group. Not the guy who is being honest and blunt, but the guy holding up 24 others from completing something. So who is more rude? Someone too lazy to know their class/spec,reforge, gemming or even the fight that is in the journal or the guy who is trying to save others time and saying the truth.

[Pann]

No shit, its like playing with little babies who have the mentality of a child along with their playing skill. Casuals whine and cry more than anyone in Wow. He said mean thing to me mommy. He said we are bad because i stand in fire. I cant pay attention for any amount of time and he makes fun of me. I cant figure out how to use 3-4 buttons and cds while not standing in fire. Are adults saying that they cant comprehend a simple game?

Are they saying that they arent smart enough to play a video game? Of course they dont have the time yet you will watch them farm mounts, pets and other trivial things then whine about wow taking too much time.

I will be glad when Titan comes out and the daycare that Wow is can be left to them.

---------- Post added 2013-04-23 at 09:21 PM ----------



So get a better raid comp. Look at numbers and see why they arent higher or why they are really low. Replace people. Some specs/classes did better in one tier and worse in another, that is Wow. Replace people who arent pulling the number they should. None of this is new information and when people link logs, it all comes out as to why they arent progressoing. If you want to play with players you know are bad but are you friend, then progression isnt your goal. So the difficulty of content shouldnt matter as much. If you replaced the bad classes/players you would progress.

Considering how full of childish insults the first part of your post is it is quite ironic that you refer to others as children.

Many people would like to play with their friends and progress as they have in the past, when only half of the guilds that beaten the first boss manage to down the fourth out of twelve bosses there is most definitely a problem with the level of difficulty compared to previous expansions.

[melodramocracy]

That would never work.

But it would....it's worked in past MMO's. Though to be fair, I'm talking more about an overall gameplay view, rather than strictly a raiding thing.

[Coronius]

This is of course entirely subjective, but if you want to play games but are unwilling to adapt to what the average player wants, you should stick to niche games like Dark Souls. The tiny elite minority of gamers is in a severe panty twist because they can't deal with business realities. Everyone else is tired of "elite gamers" acting like they're doing us a service by merely existing.

I like how you claim the hardcore community to be "in a severe panty twist" when you yourself obviously got upset by my post where I simply stated my opinion. Hypocrisy much?

I am by no means hardcore, but I genuinely feel that the ongoing trend of instant gratification within games is damaging the industry. It's a spoiled and immature mindset to constantly claim to be "entitled" to everything just because you bought a product. I can understand that a lot of people enjoy playing games where skill level is pretty much non-existent, but tons of other people like games where you have to improve to progress. Keep talking about business practices all you want (because that's all that matters, huh? fuck games, gimme dem dolla bills), but people who wants a challenge won't go away anytime soon. Sorry.

The thing is, casual players have their games and the hardcore community is totally fine with it. They don't demand those games to be any more difficult, because they are unappealing to begin with. The problem however is that casual players often demand hardcore games to be easier (WoW is a pretty good example in this case if you've read the official forums the last few years). And still, we hear uneducated statements like "hardcore being unwilling to adapt" when it's mostly the exact opposite.