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  1. #1001
    Elemental Lord Duronos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justforthis123 View Post
    Who are you to say that what they say isn't the truth.

    Whatever happen behinds the schemes, that is what is told and shown us so... until we are shown differently ( maybe you got proofs that the rest of the world doesn't ) that's what we can believe in.

    IT : surprised this troll thread made by a troll is still open even after the OP has shown its true colors and got banned.
    Well lets say they don't agree with LFD anymore, it's not like they could just take it out. They may disagree on even implementing it after a few years of it being out but they can't make themselves look weak decision wise, they have to say they agree with said decision.

    (I'm not saying they disagree on LFD, just using an example)
    Hey everyone

  2. #1002
    Quote Originally Posted by Aang View Post
    Well lets say they don't agree with LFD anymore, it's not like they could just take it out. They may disagree on even implementing it after a few years of it being out but they can't make themselves look weak decision wise, they have to say they agree with said decision.

    (I'm not saying they disagree on LFD, just using an example)
    Blizzard (or more specifically Ghostcrawler) has been willing to admit they regret some of their decisions in the past though -- flying mounts being the first one that comes to mind.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ount-in-game-!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneru View Post
    Back in Molten Core in Vanilla, about 20 people up and the rest still being ressed. Cidet, our rogue, goes in stealth and moves up to Ragnaros. About 5 seconds later, Ragnaros aggroes and starts killing all of us again. Everyone is pissed and I whisper Cidet "wtf happened?!". All he replies me is...

    "Target has no pockets"

  3. #1003
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I don't agree. I don't think many moms were playing during Vanilla. Even if there was 1 or a million moms, you can't prove what you said.

    You're right, it was casual compared to EQ, and thats fine. But that doesn't mean every xpac should get more and more casual, more and more SOLO ARCADE.

    Why play a multiplayer game if you don't want to play with others?

    Whats even more ironic is how people in this thread say things like "you elitist hardocres need to get over it, Vanilla is gone" which implies the more hardcore players of Vanilla should get over how MoP currently is being ran.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 09:50 PM ----------



    I disagree, most talents have a "best of" even as Blizzard constantly buff and nerfs things. There are still many many many "must haves."

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-26 at 09:51 PM ----------



    Agree. There are 3-4 FPs in Westfall? Really?
    "Why play a multiplayer game if you don't want to play with others?"

    by this logic, every online game with automatic grouping is a single player game.

  4. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Those people might have found guilds but because it's so much easier to use LFR there's no point, so new raiders are even harder to find. And because they are so hard to find, there are less active guilds for people who might want to join one. It's a vicious cycle that Blizz can only correct by making guild raiding more rewarding.
    LOL. So players find more "suitable" content (LFR) and stop doing "less suitable" content (normal) ... that is bad how?

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    So what was it in Vanilla/TBC that made it designed with "adventuring" in mind? That is what I'm trying to understand. Because I did not feel like things were more of an adventure back then. I just feel like things were newer back then. Maybe the adventure is gone because you've been playing for so long?
    Example, BRDs. Seriously, that place is great from an adventuring point of view. It feels like a real city, like it's part of the game world. A city of dwarves build into a volcanic mountain, with the lair of a Elemental Lord underneath.

    Since BC, dungeons were more or less corridors connecting boss fight arenas ...

    Sure BRDs was a pain to navigate during vanilla. But that's because there weren't any maps and in general the place had a non-intuitive designed - not enough cues to orientate the player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I do miss the class specific quests. For example, Shaman used to travel to different parts of the world to gather their elemental totems. Now you just get them as you level. I also sort of miss paying my trainer to get new abilities, but I understand why that was changed.

    In the end, the game has changed for the better. Especially the talent system.
    Those definitely contribute to immersion. I did the druid ones to get your forms as well as the warlock ones to get your pets - including the "optional" pets, Infernal and Doomguard; Oh yes, there was the mount quest chain too.

    In general, Blizzard's "streamlining" has killed a lot of WoW immersion.
    Last edited by SodiumChloride; 2013-04-27 at 07:22 AM.

  5. #1005
    The one thing I liked about Vanilla that most people don't usually mention is that talents didn't streamline your character like they do now.

    For example, a Holy Paladin could tank at sub-55 levels amazingly well as long as they geared for it. Holy Paladins and retribution paladins didn't have that much of a difference in healing numbers/cast times wearing the same gear (mana wasn't that much different in the same gear either), a Holy Paladin was just based around mana longevity. If you could crit on a heal, you'd get the mana you spent back. Thus created flash of light spam. Since mana longevity was basically a necessity in RAIDS, you had to be Holy to raid. However, when it came for smaller groups, solo, or PVP, it didn't matter as much so you could go ret, get similar healing and more damage at the same time (Would just have to drink more). Holy and ret damage weren't that different either. This is the kind of talent system I always envisioned as "perfect". This truly gives you a "choice" and lets you play however you want to.

    Also, the kind of armor you wore actually mattered. Plate took wayyy less damage than cloth did vs melee, while now there are a plethora of ways to bypass armor almost entirely.

    Mobility back then also made more "sense", as the classes that wanted to be unencumbered got rewarded for such. Snares/Roots/Mobility was based around the kind of armor type you wore. Plate had very little mobility. Rogues could get a very high Dodge rating to make up for their lack of armor, while now they're lucky to even hit 15% evasion between evade and parry.

    While I know it's hard to "balance" around such a concept, the concept actually makes sense from a fantasy role play perspective. Games that have Warriors move faster than their Rogues makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

    I enjoy fantasy games where I can have the type of advantage I crave based on the type of class I enjoy. Rogues in basically every game out there have mobility and evasion advantages.

  6. #1006
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    Those people might have found guilds but because it's so much easier to use LFR there's no point, so new raiders are even harder to find. And because they are so hard to find, there are less active guilds for people who might want to join one. It's a vicious cycle that Blizz can only correct by making guild raiding more rewarding.
    Sure, they might have joined a raiding guild. However, as a long time officer and guild master I remember what a nightmare this kind of people were because they mostly lacked dedication towards more serious raiding. It's not fun for either of sides when you raid with people who aren't really interested in it. And you can't really blame them for that - it's a game and it's their choise what they wanna do in it. This was a quite simple conflict of interest.

    Also, I don't think there is that huge decline in raiding in general. There is a problem with 25 mans because let's face it, 10 mans are much less of a hassle (even if we assume the same difficulty level which frankly isn't always perfectly balanced). And no, I don't think anything bad about 10 mans and doing them but even Blizzard noticed 25 mans are in disadvantage but can't figure out how to even things out bit more (*hint* separate achievement :P ... or at least Realm First).

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 07:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    Actually IMO raids have become easier since Cata.
    Nope. They are more complex with every expantion. Unlike pre Cata they require more and more personal skill of each raid member. Sure, top guilds clear them fast but top guilds have some amazing players who mostly play for years and have become very skillfull. When you become better some things seem easier but try putting that into perspective. The main difficulty of Vanilla raids was coordinating 40 people - the fact is vast majority of players in Vanilla simply sucked because there was hardly any information on how to play your class properly. TBC had more demand on personal skill (possible to throw at players due to smaller raid size) and had few really fun fights (Vash and Kael were up to the standards of current raiding model) but then again the main difficulty was making a group of 25 people playing classes that did not suck. SWP was much easier if you could stack the working specs. Sure it was doable with all (I've cleared SWP as a moonkin eventually) but required much more time to gather gear to compensate for worst performance.

    Nowadays, classes are much more balanced and fights could become more complex because it's personal skill of all raid members that mostly decides how fast you kill new bosses.

  7. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I'm glad you are having a great time. For the most part, so am I. What I find ironic is the amount of QQ about the grind in MoP. Sorry, there is way more of a grind in MoP than in other expansion. It feels more like a grind. "heroics"? Just a grind. Its run to boss, aoe trash then kill a boss as if it was a regular mob. How isn't that grind?

    Sorry, wanting some of the features form previous games back into the current game isn't wrong, and its not nostalgia. If you could come up with a better argument than lolnostalgia it'd be great. Also, have a preference that conflicts with yours doesn't make me an elitist asshole. Actually, by telling everyone YOUR opinion is better, or YOUR opinion matters more, yeah, that makes you an elitist asshole.
    From**

    I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about. I'm not sure that you're sure what you're talking about.

  8. #1008
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    The reason people call "nostalgia" and "rose tinted glasses" is because threads like this do exactly that. They focus on "good old days", praising stuff that might have been the highlight of vanilla and conveniently ignore all the other things that were the exact opposite. In order to be fair to vanilla, one should have listed both the good and the bad - even a single specific aspect did have both. Let's see, using myself as an example:

    1. Alterac Valley.

    The good - massive, highly involving battle, with many different things to do, like gathering materials to improve your troops, summoning raid bosses, fighting for mines. Could last for hours and was pretty epic.

    The bad - queues were an absolute killer, requiring you to sit there for hours. Rewards were silly when compared to the duration and quite often it felt that battles were just dragging on because one side couldn't break through the choke point due to mass aoe. And it lasted until key players on one side finally went to sleep.

    2. World Events. Say, AQ opening.

    The Good - massive, one time event involving hundreds of people working toward the same goal. Even "casuals" could show up and try to kill these super bugs to get a taste of raiding. Unique title and mount. Currently, there's no real replacement for those - Isle of Thunder daily progression is kinda sorta trying to do that, but since it's largely done through solo scenarios, it's not really comparable.

    The Bad - server crashes. God, the server crashes. Also, the horrible grind involved with the War Effort and gathering bug shells or whatever it was. Majority of questline being limited to single person/guild, who also could have been dicks and do "ninja" opening without announcing it to anyone.

    3. Questing.

    The good - ... Um... Well, I guess Benediction and Rhok'delar quest were pretty unique. Then again, rogue Legendary did have something similar, Benediction quest was 5 minute event if you prepared accordinly and some hunters would share account to have actually skilled players do the job for them.

    The bad - horrible, terrible rewards. Itemization was atrocious, almost zero choice and even if there was, it was mostly about chosing more expensive item to vendor. Quest would also randomly send you to the other continent for no freaking reason, require you to buy some completely unrelated profession items or demand some other stupid shit that dragged on and on and on. And then you got some useless crap as a reward.


    If I'd seen such list - or something similar - I could actually say that person X wasn't nostalgic, but actually remembers both the good and the bad side of the vanilla. Because the latter was pretty damn big.

    But instead, it's usually cherry picking the Good, comparing it to worst aspect of later expansions and triumphantly declaring Vanilla to be superior in every other way. Case in point - OPs AQ opening screenshot. Should have shown the horrible grind involved or maybe logging screen after you crashed for the 10th time.

  9. #1009
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    I can assure u that not so much of the Wrath content was exposed and played by the beta testers BEFORE Wrath release. MoP had every detail of what u could expect advertised on sites such as this, down to what colour the socks Garrosh would be wearing...

    Every raid boss had full tutorials out before MoP was even out, thats the Wow way of playing through the content now. it wasnt like that Back in Wrath/TBC days. I dont just mean raiding, even what quests u could do and how to do them were all posted up before the game was released... not much adventuring when all the content is published and advertised.
    (1) All quests were known and fully described long since early Vanilla. Ever heard of thottbot?
    (2) Encounters in TBC were still mostly much easier therfor not much need to describe them. However, it's those few more complex ones that started people to theorycraft and write guides. WotLK encounters were pretty much well known before their release with very few exception. Blizzard stopped fighting that because with all the datamining etc people would get all info needed anyway. Besides, knowing the mechanics isn't really a ready guide for how to kill a boss - you still need to be able to put your raiding group into it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 11:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Im actually talking about how the game is designed overall.

    Back in Vanilla/TBC the game was designed with adventuring in mind. Now its not.

    The entire MMORPG culture was about adventuring. Blizzard has taken Wow very far from that original concept. Thats my overall point.
    The feeling of adventure came from things being new. Blizzard can't possibly throw anything that fresh at us anymore - we all know too much and are too experienced. Besides, appart from artificially enforced flying around the world for quests and dungeon entrances lost all the immersion after about few weeks. It was very fast quite automated process that had nothing to do with adventuring. It was nothing more than a time sink - times sinks are the most boring mechanic ever and I'm glad Blizzard decided to get rid of most of them (or made them optional).

    In fact nowadays you have much more reasons to fly around the world IF YOU CHOSE TO. There are various OPTIONAL achievements and activities that reward you for adventuring. Optional is the key word here because this way you do it because you want to - it isn't required in order to progress further in the game therefor it doesn't feel enforced and annoying.

    And about that great adventure in Vanilla and TBC - I've spend most of my none raiding time either farming mats for raids (booooooooooooring) or flying around major cities. There was no other reason for me to go anywhere. Doing dungeons was pointless when you were raid geared and there was nothing else to do. Nowadays, when I don't raid and have some time to play the game I do pet battles, brawlers guild, achievements that require exploring, etc...

    Also the questing actually make me care for lore. All the little stories are actually quite consistent. Vanilla and TBC was mostly bunch of unrelated, repetitive quests that didn't really make me care for what's going on. Now I often do quests just to learn the story - I did for 5.1 daly quests. I didn't have to do them since there weren't any rewards that could upgrade my toon at that point but the story was so fun that I couldn't wait to learn the next part. This is the real mmo adventure - not "waste time flying around the world for no apparent reason".

    All Blizzard did with most of the changes was automate the parts of the game that for vast majority of people already were an automated yet quite annoying process. They took the "annoying" part from it for which I am extremly gratefull. The fun part is that you still can do most things the old way (in fact challenge modes require you to do so when it comes to forming and starting a dungeon). The reason why it's hard to do things the old way is because so many people don't want to do it the old which proves that the old way was far inferior and brought much more annoyance than the feeling of adventure.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 11:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    Explaining what 'adventuring' is is actually very difficult. Exploring and discovery is simply one aspect of it. I would say that the feeling your character was 'at risk' throughout its entire journey goes some way to explaining it. I remember dying ALOT when levelling and needing to ask for help from my guild alot too. Now u can level 1 handed and can probably count the amount of times your health goes below half on one hand before u hit lev90...

    Sure thats an exaggeration but it gives a vision of my point.
    You died a lot at the begining because you were bad at the game as any one of us when we leveled our very first toon. With each toon I have leveled I knew more and died less and didn't need any more help. The feeling of adventure is hard to describe because it's subjective and comes mostly from seeing the unknown. After playing for years there is no way to see so much unknown. All the new things will nothing compared to how you see the game for the first time.

    I know that leveling was made easier and faster but that had to happen. Leveling was never the key element of WoW. WoW is end game - be it PvP or PvE. Leveling was only a time consuming obsticle that stood in the way. You know why Cataclysm is rated so low by many people? Because Blizzard put most of their work into leveling content. They did amazing job there, however, for majority of the players it went unnoticed because they couldn't care less for the new leveling content - they wanted more cool things to do at max level. MoP fixed that to even to the point where many people felt overwhelmed with how many things there were to do at max level.

    Leveling was fun for the first time. Each next time was just more dull. I started 2 alts during Vanilla and just couldn't bare the boredom of leveling process. I maxed one of them during mid TBC. The other is stuck around lvl 50. It's WotLK and Cata that made me wanna level something else again.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 12:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Azureqt View Post
    LFR and LFD killed WoW.

    There is no journey.

    Just press a button... very sad.
    No. Explained above.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 12:37 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrax View Post
    If people could just take the high road and see the point of the post, that'd be greeeeaat. Yes it is nostalgia, and yes the game has lost its immersion.

    How about we talk about immersion and stop hating at his choice of vocabulary?

    WoW hasn't got it now, I hope the majority agrees.

    In terms of MMORPG, it has currently lost the MM and the RP, for me personally. (I highlighted MM because of the current status of the community, no server community, playing with randoms via LFR/LFD and greed that comes with it, etc.)
    Well, I don't agree. For me MoP has been the most immersive experience ever. Nor Vanilla nor TBC made me really cared about what is happening around me. It's WotLK that started to introduce more immersive content and it has been polished till now into a really immersive content.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 12:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    You can't LOSE something you NEVER HAD.

    I played WoW since day 1 and as far as I'm concerned it never had any meaningful immersion. Mobs that stand in one spot while you kill their buddy 20 feet away, 5 players looting 5 heads from one dead guy... I can go on and on forever. And as far as MM goes - you seem to be confused about the definition of "massive multiplayer". Does the game have hundreds of players playing at the same time? Yes - therefore it's Massive Multiplayer.

    This is exactly why it's nostalgia - you are crying that wow "lost" things it never had to begin with.
    Exactly how I see it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 12:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    No, your last sentence is very false. This is very obviously why the "lolnostalgia" crap is simply that: CRAP. Its a straw man. What its really saying is.... NUH UHN I REMEMBER BETTER THAN YOU!!!!!111111 Which is obviously just plain stupid. No, you don't remember my experiences better than me. You remember yours negatively, and while thats fine, your negative time in early WoW doesn't mean mine was also negative. Sure, they have fixed many silly things in the game, but that doesn't mean everything about Vanilla was bad, and everything about MoP is good.

    Can you please use a real argument next time? Obviously if you think any of your arguments are good, its just nostalgia.
    This whole discussion is extremly subjective so I don't know what kind of "real" arguments do you expect. We are talking about the memories of our past experience. The thing is many people blame Blizzard design choises for losing some feeling about the game, however, they don't take into consideration that the feeling of losing something might have completly different source.

    Yes, I do remember all the negative things from early WoW. Maybe because I'm a bit obssesed with details I tend to keep flaws in my memory so long. However, I do see some of them in a perspective meaning that while I didn't know better many things did not bother me. But when it got improved I can't claim that the inferior solution was better. And I have to admitt that some of the things that Blizzard introduced later into game I presented to my WoW friends as how I would like to see the game. One example is the currency and token system. I still remember that after doing BWL for months each reset I have never ever seen Stormrage shoulders drop. It was frustrating as hell. I still remember saying multiple times that people should have some more solid reward for farming a boss countless times. Sure, even nowadays some items don't wanna drop but it's less obnoxious than before plus you can compensate with Valor gear. The 2nd issue I was even quite vocal on the forums - class balance. I still remember many people finding it ok that many specs in the game are unplayabe or useless comparing to others and that the community neglects people who were unfortunate enough to chose the "wrong class/spec" - you can't have something like this in a mmo game.

    Blizzard is not perfect but they sure do listen to their customers. The problem with some of their decissions is that it's not possible to please everyone. But still, even tho I don't agree with all of their choises I find most of them really good for my gaming experience and MoP so far is pure fun with very little frustration. I can play the spec I enjoy the most. I can do challenging content without having to comitt my whole life for it. I still hope for few more improvements but I am patient. I've waited whole Vanilla to be able to even try playing a balance druid. Waited whole TBC for not being laughed at for playing a balance druid. Waited some more to be competitve. Waited some more for raiding to be less preasure on my free time which is becoming much more limited the older I am getting.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 01:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    You can still find raiders with no LK kill or Ulduar kill............dang near every raider has beaten the joke that is Dragon Soul.
    DS wasn't a joke until Blizzard put the supid % nerf. I find MoP raiding really satisfying mostly because we hadn't seen any % nerfs to whole raid tiers. Oh, I so much hope they will never do it again because it screws the preception of raiding difficulty and is absolutly pointless. The argument that you can turn it off is dumb because making things harder on purpose is not the mindset of the majority of mmo gamers. The whole idea of improving your character is to make things easier and it should be the only way to do so. Otherwise, what's the point.
    Last edited by Lilija; 2013-04-27 at 01:01 PM.

  10. #1010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatboll View Post
    Why is it when someone says an old version of WoW is better than the current version everyone says it's just nostalgia? But, when someone says Final Fantasy VI or VII is the best Final Fantasy game it's true? Why isn't that just nostalgia? Shouldn't Final Fantasy XIII or XIV or whatever version they're on be the best Final Fantasy ever?

    Why is liking old WoW nostalgia, but it's not nostalgia for other games? Just wondering.
    VERY good point!

    And the answer comes down to that the vast majority of Wow players are not experienced gamers, most of them have never played any other game to a serious level outside of Wow. These people see any criticisms of current Wow as simply wrong and they believe that the current Wow is better than all other incarnations of Wow in the past.

    The bottom line that experienced gamers will judge a game on how much FUN they had at particular expansions. This isnt nostalgia, its a proper and honest analysis of the players experience. I think FF7 is the best FF game ever, i played it on release and i had more FUN playing that FF than any other. Therefore my opinion is that FF7 is the best FF in the series.

    Nosatalgia and FUN are closely linked.

    It looks to me like most Wow players know they had most of their FUN in the past and continue to play because they are seeking out that FUN again. Truth is that its extrememly unlikely u can find that old FUN again, some players will stick around in hope they will find it again and other players will quit Wow and go play something else looking for that FUN.

    It really is that simple...

  11. #1011
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    3. Questing.

    The good - ... Um... Well, I guess Benediction and Rhok'delar quest were pretty unique. Then again, rogue Legendary did have something similar, Benediction quest was 5 minute event if you prepared accordinly and some hunters would share account to have actually skilled players do the job for them.

    The bad - horrible, terrible rewards. Itemization was atrocious, almost zero choice and even if there was, it was mostly about chosing more expensive item to vendor. Quest would also randomly send you to the other continent for no freaking reason, require you to buy some completely unrelated profession items or demand some other stupid shit that dragged on and on and on. And then you got some useless crap as a reward.
    You left out the upgrade to Dungeon Set Two questline, which was awesome, and some of the most fun I had in the game. The Sunken Temple class quests were pretty fun, and what I remember of the Warlock and Pally mount quests was pretty fun, too. (Sceptre of the Shifting Sands was awesome as well, but I can see that not every could easily do it.) And while I think you're a little too harsh on some of the quests (I didn't mind questing to different zones, profession items usually made some thematic sense, and the big quests usually did give decent rewards) I do have to agree that itemization was pretty... eclectic (and that's being generous ).

  12. #1012
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I do miss the class specific quests. For example, Shaman used to travel to different parts of the world to gather their elemental totems. Now you just get them as you level.
    That I can agree was cool, tho not all class quests were good. I admit I hope that Blizzard will use the scenario system to introduce some more class specific content some day - it seems perfect for the job

  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    You left out the upgrade to Dungeon Set Two questline, which was awesome, and some of the most fun I had in the game. The Sunken Temple class quests were pretty fun, and what I remember of the Warlock and Pally mount quests was pretty fun, too. (Sceptre of the Shifting Sands was awesome as well, but I can see that not every could easily do it.) And while I think you're a little too harsh on some of the quests (I didn't mind questing to different zones, profession items usually made some thematic sense, and the big quests usually did give decent rewards) I do have to agree that itemization was pretty... eclectic (and that's being generous ).
    Tier 0.5 was a good thing, but it came pretty late, and difficulty balance was a mess considering it was supposedly intended for blue geared groups. 45 minute baron? Lord Valthalak? Ouch. Granted, it turned the horrible crap that was dungeon set 1 into actually useful items and was pretty big of a chain, so eh.

    If anything, I forgot about Onyxia fight in Stormwind. Now that was a cool little thing that never really happened again. Nowadays, if you get fight with group of "elites", they are usually normal level mobs with artifically inflated health and easily avoidable abilities. Getting elite NPC on your side either result in him two shotting everything (say, Varian in first Shieldwall quest) or just being there for dialogue and pretending to do damage. (5.2 scenarios... Vereesa, you're so damn weak).

    Or, hell, handing Onyxia/Nefarian's head and having city wide yell from NPC praising your heroic effort. Last time something like that happened was with Algalon. I guess they had to remove it because of LFR, but still... Oh well.

  14. #1014
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meatboll View Post
    Why is it when someone says an old version of WoW is better than the current version everyone says it's just nostalgia? But, when someone says Final Fantasy VI or VII is the best Final Fantasy game it's true? Why isn't that just nostalgia? Shouldn't Final Fantasy XIII or XIV or whatever version they're on be the best Final Fantasy ever?

    Why is liking old WoW nostalgia, but it's not nostalgia for other games? Just wondering.
    Because there's 90% chance it is nostalgia. In fact with any older game we used to love at a time we will experience a lot of nostalgia. The problem with WoW tho is that we can't really go back to the old version therefor we are unable to check how much nostalgia it is there (private servers are nothing compared to real thing - even the old real thing).

    The other thing is that WoW is very complex and heavily focused on the massive multiplayer part. Our perception of the game is influenced by so many elements some of which aren't that much dependant on the game design itself. The reason why WoW objectivly is evolving for better lays in the fact that it offers more and more for various types of people and this is something completly separate from how you experience it in any particular moment. The fact is, it lets more people experience it in more enjoyable ways then before. Also, argument that people give for what is wrong in WoW are often objectivly invalid - mostly because they are modiefied by subjective memory from the past which for sure has an element of nostalgia. I do believe that people enjoyed a lot some aspects of the game back in the game but many bring illogical argument of why that was better.

  15. #1015
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SodiumChloride View Post
    LOL. So players find more "suitable" content (LFR) and stop doing "less suitable" content (normal) ... that is bad how?
    People who would have guild raided will find that it's a waste of time simply because LFR is easier.

    You have to fight the game itself to make a good guild, and that's not fair.

  16. #1016
    LFR might be a mixed bag for many, but anyone who has fond memories of 40-man raiding never regularly organized and led 40-man raids.

    The best raids were the ones where I was only mildly irritated throughout the night, and the worst raids were practically guild-killers. Mountains of aggravation caused by people looking to cause strife, always having to watch for slackers, the near impossible task of managing the schedules of 40 different people so attendance was always a crap shoot... I miss those things like I miss the Bush presidency.

  17. #1017
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Is it really though?

    To me it feels as if throughout the expansions they've tried to make it more and more into a single player and zoned instance game.

    The multiplayer parts feel no different from Guild Wars 2 where you zone into an instance with a few people, often people you wont be able to meet elsewhere in the game anymore (because they're from another realm).

    It has come to the point that because of how uncomitted the "MMO" part of WoW is that people have started to call games like SimCity an MMO game too, after all you are online and you sometimes can get grouped up with other complete online strangers...
    Bingo. There's now a fine line between MMO and regular Online games by today's standards.
    Today's market doesn't have time for MMO's really yet they want to play one.
    I think it stems from people feeling the need to accomplish everything in game which is kind of wrong for a true MMO.

    Each new addition to the game like LFR is really making the world of the game smaller.

  18. #1018
    Quote Originally Posted by HeedmySpeed View Post
    Today's market doesn't have time for MMO's really yet they want to play one.
    Todays market has all the time it needs to play an MMO. It's far less of a time issue, and far more of an immediate gratification issue.

    Folks in Cata who play this game a good amount had 4-5 alts vp capping every week, all of them raid geared. (some still do probably) Game changes and suddenly alts become a bit more time consuming to gear, and suddenly the community "doesn't have time! too grindy!"

    It's complete bullshit.

  19. #1019
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Todays market has all the time it needs to play an MMO.
    Care to elaborate on where you got that piece of info from?
    MMO player
    WoW: 2006-2020 || EvE: 2013-2020 || FFXIV: 2020- || Lost Ark: 2022-

  20. #1020
    Immortal Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Care to elaborate on where you got that piece of info from?
    One would hope it came from common sense. I mean, when one chooses to play something like an MMO, they're under the understanding that they'll be gearing and progressing much slower than someone with more time to play, right? It's not like they actually think they deserve massive rewards for minimal effort simply because of their scheduling conflicts and flawed priority system, right?

    Oh, wait.
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