It's not Nostalgia.

[Nachturnal]

That and that the MMORPG genre was founded on IMMERSION not convenience.

The games, at their core, were completely designed around IMMERSION. Everything they did and planned was constantly revolved around making it the most immersive experience possible. Now, it's solely designed around convenience.

Holy Jesus you hipster, it's a game. You want some immersion go read a book -.-. No amount of crying is going to bring Vanilla back, it was a grindfest, it was slow, times have changed, learn to deal.

[SodiumChloride]

This is where we'll just have to disagree I suppose. The speed run is superfluous to completing the game.

To be frank, I'm getting a little confused as to what you are arguing.

Note that there is a difference between stating a game is easy and complaining its easy BTW.

Mario is easy - given that multitudes of players have beaten it. Maybe you have a case with Mario since there is only one difficulty setting - the last time I checked. But this isn't true for WoW.

The main point is modern games have multiple difficulty settings. You are not in a position to complain that a game is too easy if you have not beaten the game's hardcore mode. The developers have not failed you by not providing challenging enough content.

[Hubbl3]

I hate to say this but for anyone for anyone (including me) to voice an opinion about Vanilla, I think we should all prove it with our subscription dates before saying Vanilla isn't as good as MoP etc.

EDIT:

http://i.imgur.com/1HQj5h7.png

Vanilla is not as good as MoP (That doesn't mean, that vanilla wasn't fun. It was great. But today, I don't want to play a game like vanilla anymore.)

I just wanted to point out that this is a great analogy.

Ths funny thing is: WoW never was hard in the first place. Except you play at 3000 arena rating or world top 5 in PvE.

[Aktavite]

No. You get over yourself. You're just bitter. You're just experiencing the opposite of nostalgia.

You also didn;t answer my question, you just whined and bitched.

Running = playing.

Rarely did people go AFK in my guild.

Whats wrong with spamming /4?

You are claiming your opinion 'that wow has lost it's immersion' as fact and then asking a leading question.

I don't need to answer it because you have already made up your mind as to what is right and wrong.

You then falsly make a claim about me when you are the one posting in complaint about the game. Yes you!

And now you admit that players did go AFK in raids even in Vanilla raiding. That in itself goes against your idea how that only occurs because 'WoW has lost is immesion'....

What do you see wrong with spamming /Trade looking for a raid/group? If you don't like the LFR/LFG tool, don't use it. There is nothing forcing you to use it. Plain and simple.

Don't blame other people for your perceived failings of the game.

[Theendgamelv3]

No. You get over yourself. You're just bitter. You're just experiencing the opposite of nostalgia.

You also didn;t answer my question, you just whined and bitched.

Running = playing.

Rarely did people go AFK in my guild.

Whats wrong with spamming /4?

Here I will answer it, noone wants to run back to SW and it taking 10 mins to run back to depending where you were at in Westfall. It doesn't trivialize it cause whenever I did Westfall, I still ran all over the place in that zone despite the FPs there. Don't make it sound like you can fly to any point in Westfall and you can finish the whole area in terms in quest in 10 mins. Any kind of FP takes away from immersion. If you didn't read the news, Blizzard recently changed it back to where you HAVE to discover FPs again. Guess what, that means you have to run over the zone to find them all while leveling up if you so choose to. Also just because people rarely AFK in your guild doesn't mean it doesn't happen, also some people just don't have the greatest connection in the world. Which would you rather do, spam in 4 or actually play the game. I would rather play the game. I will say this again, you and the other people who hate how WoW is, make your own guild since there are enough of you and play it the way it use to be played. Want to run around and not fly, you don't have to do that. Don't want to use LFR/LFG holy crap use the guild you guys made. Think that getting mounts at lvl 20 now sucks, well don't buy it til level 40, the game allows that. You can call your guild Vanilla Rules or The WoW OGs or something.

[ringpriest]

2013 definition (it isn't 2014 yet) is a lobby game! a lobby game is a game where you can talk to some people while you wait for a queue to pop for your match, and that's exactly what it is like now! You sit in your dungeon/LFR queue go do your dungeon or "raid" (sorry it's not real raiding when you can fall asleep and get loot) not say anything and then queue for another.

"Lobby game" is the perfect term for where WoW is headed. I hadn't heard it before, but it perfectly captures the changing direction of the game. Thank you!

[ringpriest]

What I don't get is why casuals complained in the first place back a few years ago... When you log on as a casual it means you have less time but there is always something to do every time you log on. Why complain about that? Yeah you can't see some of the end game content and that's because a lot of the end game is just farm this and farm that, especially if you're hardcore and you just farm raids etc.

Seriously, why would you complain about it?

Because Blizzard themselves have fostered the idea that everyone who subs must see everything in the game.

[ComputerNerd]

I see a lot of screenshots, but little argument.
Biased plain and simple.

What good are more talents if there are mandatory and largely fixed progression routes in a given spec.
How many of those are not already pre-determined for you ?
Very few.

Because YOU had plenty of time for organised dungeon/raid content at sociable hours does not mean others did.
The raid/dungeon finders are well suited to those who tend to play at hours where organised groups are few and far between.
And really what did larger numbers bring, except be biased towards larger guilds.
Oh and the "easy mode" is still regularly inhabited by those "elite" raiders who look down on it so much.

So showing an image of two continents and their travel links between them is a suitable comparison to one continent and a single type of transport link all of a sudden ?
Rubbish.
There is no point there.
The boats, tram, flight paths still exist.

How would most players get to a raid or dungeon in a pug previously ?
Oh yes, they would sit around on their backside until a few more willing members would actually travel there to do the summons at the stone or for a warlock to farm a stupid amount of shards to provide a taxi service for lazy sods.

It was nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore".
That argument is getting tired, and is completely incorrect because "casual" has nothing to do with skill but about time commitment.
A casual game is one you can pick up for an hour and achieve something in without it being completely wasted if you cant make the same commitment as someone else with more convenient circumstances.
Skill has NOTHING to do with someone being casual or hardcore, but about their ability to plan their life around their play, and not the other way around.

If you really want to tell us that vanilla was this simply superior game, then provide real arguments and be prepared to discuss.
Not just deciding that you are right, and having the only opinion that matters.

You are right about one thing, that not being nostalgia.
But something far worse, Arrogance.

[Cwimge]

Ahem

NOOOOOSSSTALGIA!!!!

[rebecca191]

I wouldn't want to go back to vanilla, I think mostly because the things I enjoyed about vanilla were more enjoyable because the game was new - like it taking so much time to travel so thew orld felt bigger etc. I'd happily play TBC or WotLK agian though.

[Pull My Finger]

Nostalgia people just completely fail at realizing one thing. They keep claiming that the "game used to be immersive", instead of realizing that they used to be immersed. It's a lack of self-awareness and intelligence, really. That's the whole truth of it. And makes a whole lot more sense than seriously trying to convince yourself and others that the game used to be better in its infant stadium 8 years ago.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

To be frank, I'm getting a little confused as to what you are arguing.

Note that there is a difference between stating a game is easy and complaining its easy BTW.

Mario is easy - given that multitudes of players have beaten it. Maybe you have a case with Mario since there is only one difficulty setting - the last time I checked. But this isn't true for WoW.

The main point is modern games have multiple difficulty settings. You are not in a position to complain that a game is too easy if you have not beaten the game's hardcore mode. The developers have not failed you by not providing challenging enough content.

I'm not sure why you think I couldn't argue that the leveling experience is ridiculous, just because I don't have all the heroic bosses on farm. Its not really logical.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 04:45 AM ----------

You are claiming your opinion 'that wow has lost it's immersion' as fact and then asking a leading question.

I don't need to answer it because you have already made up your mind as to what is right and wrong.

You then falsly make a claim about me when you are the one posting in complaint about the game. Yes you!

And now you admit that players did go AFK in raids even in Vanilla raiding. That in itself goes against your idea how that only occurs because 'WoW has lost is immesion'....

What do you see wrong with spamming /Trade looking for a raid/group? If you don't like the LFR/LFG tool, don't use it. There is nothing forcing you to use it. Plain and simple.

Don't blame other people for your perceived failings of the game.

I have not claimed my opinion as law. The question isn't really leading. Do you not have an answer?

The claim stands, because you refuse to even answer simple questions.

I've never said anything like "no one in vanilla ever went afk." But its certainly a much bigger issue.

How do you know I don't spam trade? Oh okay, you don't. I've never even said I don't like the LFR/:LFD tool, you are assuming.

Yes, what others do changes my game. Thats because its a multiplayer game.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 04:51 AM ----------

Here I will answer it, noone wants to run back to SW and it taking 10 mins to run back to depending where you were at in Westfall. It doesn't trivialize it cause whenever I did Westfall, I still ran all over the place in that zone despite the FPs there. Don't make it sound like you can fly to any point in Westfall and you can finish the whole area in terms in quest in 10 mins. Any kind of FP takes away from immersion. If you didn't read the news, Blizzard recently changed it back to where you HAVE to discover FPs again. Guess what, that means you have to run over the zone to find them all while leveling up if you so choose to. Also just because people rarely AFK in your guild doesn't mean it doesn't happen, also some people just don't have the greatest connection in the world. Which would you rather do, spam in 4 or actually play the game. I would rather play the game. I will say this again, you and the other people who hate how WoW is, make your own guild since there are enough of you and play it the way it use to be played. Want to run around and not fly, you don't have to do that. Don't want to use LFR/LFG holy crap use the guild you guys made. Think that getting mounts at lvl 20 now sucks, well don't buy it til level 40, the game allows that. You can call your guild Vanilla Rules or The WoW OGs or something.

Mots of the things you mentioned, I didn;t even say a thing about.

There was always a FP in Westfall I believe. So why you think it would take 10 minutes to run back to SW, I don't understand. There are 3 FPs in Westfall, with 3 quest hubs, so yeah, you don't really have to move that far. Its very similar to just being on a conveyor and having the mobs just come to you.

I'm sorry you don't understand the big picture. Most changes in the game will effect your gaming experience. Many people are complaining that leveling should just be taken out of the game, and this is being considered by Blizzard. Would you welcome that change? If not, what would you do about it? try posting constructively, only to be called many names, while being whined at by people with passive aggressive response, putting words in your mouth, while ignoring most of your posts?

What will they say to you when you ask them simple questions? "Sorry that you preferred the game a different way, GTFO"

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 04:55 AM ----------

Nostalgia people just completely fail at realizing one thing. They keep claiming that the "game used to be immersive", instead of realizing that they used to be immersed. It's a lack of self-awareness and intelligence, really. That's the whole truth of it. And makes a whole lot more sense than seriously trying to convince yourself and others that the game used to be better in its infant stadium 8 years ago.

Yes yes, this fits in with the "oh its only nostalgia!!1!" Its the same thing. You are just dismissing any arguments, and telling everyone that liked, elites and group quests per say, they are just stupid and can't understand their own feelings. Its just a petty straw man. Its not even close to a real argument. Maybe explain to me why taking elites out of the game made it better?

Sure, the feeling of nostalgia is real. But the problem with your argument is the condescending, dismissing attitude that comes with it.

[Lilija]

I see a lot of screenshots, but little argument.
Biased plain and simple.

What good are more talents if there are mandatory and largely fixed progression routes in a given spec.
How many of those are not already pre-determined for you ?
Very few.

Because YOU had plenty of time for organised dungeon/raid content at sociable hours does not mean others did.
The raid/dungeon finders are well suited to those who tend to play at hours where organised groups are few and far between.
And really what did larger numbers bring, except be biased towards larger guilds.
Oh and the "easy mode" is still regularly inhabited by those "elite" raiders who look down on it so much.

So showing an image of two continents and their travel links between them is a suitable comparison to one continent and a single type of transport link all of a sudden ?
Rubbish.
There is no point there.
The boats, tram, flight paths still exist.

How would most players get to a raid or dungeon in a pug previously ?
Oh yes, they would sit around on their backside until a few more willing members would actually travel there to do the summons at the stone or for a warlock to farm a stupid amount of shards to provide a taxi service for lazy sods.

It was nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore".
That argument is getting tired, and is completely incorrect because "casual" has nothing to do with skill but about time commitment.
A casual game is one you can pick up for an hour and achieve something in without it being completely wasted if you cant make the same commitment as someone else with more convenient circumstances.
Skill has NOTHING to do with someone being casual or hardcore, but about their ability to plan their life around their play, and not the other way around.

If you really want to tell us that vanilla was this simply superior game, then provide real arguments and be prepared to discuss.
Not just deciding that you are right, and having the only opinion that matters.

You are right about one thing, that not being nostalgia.
But something far worse, Arrogance.

Real shame you can't upvote posts over here cause I would give you all the upvotes there are to give

[Belisaurio]

Hey people,

Why Blizzard don't put a button to pass the lvl 1-85 content? I mean, It's fast, u can chose to ignore that button and level if you want, but nowadays, the people want something faster than before. Like fly!! Then put a tool to skip leveling!!

A game is a time-spend machine. No more, no less. More dificult in X things, and more easy in other things. If someone want to do the hard things, theyh need to spend more time in doing that (skill help in reducing the time spend), if you don't have time for that, then you can't do all the things and need to focus in something that you can afford (skills help in doing that off course).

I don't want Vanilla to return, but I want what vanilla gave to us. With the balance, tecnology, quest, diversity, and all the things that improve the gameplay of the later expansions without skiping anything that Vanilla created.

And I'm a casual player, I don't Raid since firelands.

P.D: Sorry for my english.

[Lilija]

Yes yes, this fits in with the "oh its only nostalgia!!1!" Its the same thing. You are just dismissing any arguments, and telling everyone that liked, elites and group quests per say, they are just stupid and can't understand their own feelings. Its just a petty straw man. Its not even close to a real argument. Maybe explain to me why taking elites out of the game made it better?

Sure, the feeling of nostalgia is real. But the problem with your argument is the condescending, dismissing attitude that comes with it.

Subjective feelings are not really a good argument. Noone denies that there were people who liked certain things in the old days. The problem is the reasons you people give for why you liked them are mostly illogicial. You simply don't remember all the aspects that made you enjoy it more and blame the change of the game because it's easier to grasp rather than all those harder to remember aspects that were present back then and had little to do with the game design. We never really remember all the reasons for why we felt well about something many years ago - we only remember the fact of feeling well.

Btw. group activities are still there. For example the group quest on IoT - people always look to group for those. And from social pov I really love the IoT rare farming where people really seem to work together informing about new spawns and mostly waiting for each other (even those they don't have to).

That's just one little example. The thing is that the group activities you might do with random strangers is much more optional. For me personally it makes it much more valuable because you can fully enjoy it while it's happening instead of being forced into it which often leads to loads of frustration for the one simple reason - not all people are suited to stick around each for longer period of time. Not everyone has to enjoy everyone else. We enjoy spending time with certain type of people. Nowadays the game gives us much more of that freedom of having fun with people we want to stick around.

Also, with the cross realm there are great social initiatives like openraid. I personally don't take part in those since I have no time for that but I've heard a lot of positive feedback about it. Tho when in Cata my guild broke and many of my friends spread to many servers we still did alt raids via realID having tons of fun.

So really, social interaction is not worse than in Vanilla. The possibilities for social interaction are much greater than in Vanilla. The only difference is that you need to chose your way of interaction and look for people alike you to enjoy your gameplay to the fullest. The social interaction is fully in your hands now - the game won't do that for you. In fact in my oppinion it never did because forcing people to play together hardly makes real friendships - it's no different from real life interaction with random people you will most likely never see again in your life. And yes, that applied to Vanilla/TBC times as well - you couldn't possibly make friends with whole server.

[khalltusk]

Still surprised this threads on going.

So I did some dungeons over the weekend, my friend who I do lfr with was away so I didn't bother to do any raiding.

I got into a fair few groups and for the most part it was a silent run, everyone got in and we just blasted through. A couple of them there was some chit chat. Nothing too bad to be honest with you.

LFD as a system works for me. I can get a group and not have to sit in Org requesting a group and more importantly if hardly any friends/guildies are online I can still get a dungeon group in no time. Mostly while I am questing too.

The leveling aspect of wow I always hated. Well hate is a strong word but get bored of fast I would say better defines it. 1-60 took me weeks to do as I found it hard to get quests done as you often got side tracked (being new and all) or there was a gank fight breaking out. TBC - I knew what I was doing and sometimes found my self ganking/being ganked while doing 60-70 but I disliked the leveling there immensely. It felt boring. Wrath was a lot better the wrathgate and stormpeaks story lines being two outstanding examples. Cata leveling was ok from 80-85 and I liked that it was very story driven although the quality of the cinematics was lower.

Mops leveling for me hit it bang on. I could level fairly quick there was no major challenges for me (has not been really any overly difficult quests asides a few elites in TBC which those were the gronn or nessingwary related ones)

The cinematics in mop were really well done and I loved the fact a lot of the quests involved voice overs. The presentation was really high. As for the story line its really subjective. If you hate the story line that is fine, but the presentation was brilliant. I would have probably enjoyed TBC leveling if it was done in the manner that mops questing was.

[Chrno]

Vanilla WoW would fail hard and fast if it came out today. The 100k people who'd love it wouldn't be enough to keep it afloat and it'd be F2P within a year.

Vanilla WoW had some good aspects and a lot of tedium, ever try that quest to summon Avatar of Hakkar in Sunken Temple?

1. Start Tanaris. Gain quest "Screecher Spirits"
2. Go to Feralas. Complete Quest.
3. Return to Tanaris. Hand in quest.
4. Pick Up new Quest. Do ZF. Hand in Quest.
5. Pick up new Quest. Go where? Oh, Hinterlands. Enjoy.
6. Get Egg in Hinterlands. Return all the f%%king way to Tanaris. Hand in Quest.
7. Pick up New Quest. Go where? Oh, Sunken Temple. Halfway across Azeroth again. Enjoy.
8. Run ST, Kill Hakkar, Loot Him, Return to Tanaris. Again.
9. Dude needs more tablets. Gain Quest to go to Eastern Plaguelands.
10. Go to EP for two rocks. Come back, hand in quest.
11. Oh yeah, more rocks. This time in Lower Blackrock Spire. Really Blizzard? Do I get Air Miles for all this travel?
12. Hand in quest. Finally a good reward. A Cloak. Now the next quest has you go to the dude across the street.
13. Now what? Oh, go to the troll island in Stranglethorn. Yay! More travel.

You want this shit back? Seriously?

Yes please,

I actually loved those long quests
That weapon quest (Whirlwind axe etc) comes to mind. Back when leveling took allot long those quests were really fun and those weapon / items would last you for a 5-10 levels. And those 5-10 levels were usually a few days.

Good times

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 10:00 AM ----------

I know it will never happen, but this kind of thread makes me wish Blizzard installs a Classic server with the status of the latest patch (Naxx 40) and leave it there. Allow people to only roll fresh character.

Talent trees from back then, no dual specc - etc etc. This should probably finish our discussion to everyone's satisfaction. Maybe that server booms and people flock to it like crazy. Maybe it is a dead wasteland after 3 months. Would be an interesting experiment.

Then again, maybe Blizzard CAN already extrapolate from players current activities if this experiment would float or fail...

This is probebly the only solution to this matter.
Only a handfull of people would start playing seriously on these servers anyway. And if those few would be happy doing so, who cares really It's a win-win for both sides

[Tsuna]

For those who have played since classic to MoP.

If you cannot look back on your times in classic with fondness you don't have a heart (or have some serious Alzheimers)

If you cannot recognize how WoW has improved you don't have a brain (or see above).

Nostalgia isn't a bad thing. It's only detrimental when it makes us fail to see things rationally.

[Horizon]

Stupid! New things are always much better then the old things...

New Star wars > old Star wars (crappy special effects anyone lol!)
Justine Beiber > the beatles (shitty copycats music lol!)
Twilligt > dracula, do I even need to comment loooool

yea its probably nostalgia

[shise]

OP, you are right, none can argue that, plain simple.

The problem is that the market changes. WoW wasn't intended to be played for 10 million people, it was intended to be played by around 200k players, we all know that but, what does it mean?

It was launched for a kind of players, the MMORP gamers, people who, as you said, loved immersion role games. However, the game was so good that it called the attention of "a few" more players. TBC definitely proved that (and don't come up with "TBC was bad", because TBC was basically an extension of vanilla with huge improvements, at the same time than the first X-pack). We all remember how the end of X pack nerfs in BC were really lame, Everyone looting tier 6 and even SWP loot for free was really sad to see, but we all know that TBC was over, we were weeks from WOTLK so who could really care?

By the end of TBC Blizzard saw the largest amount of players, in part due to the large nerf to PVE. There it all began, they had to make a choice (which actually came from earlier not just from there), "do we keep the game as it was designed? or do we open it to call other kinds of player profiles?" There it all started to change. If Blizzard (with Activision) wanted to make more money or if they wanted to keep the game as epic as it used to be. Sadly we are humans, therefore greedy.


In my opinion, WoW could have gone way worse considering that they toke the money path. In my opinion, they've been able to open it to the market and yet keep a large part of it's soul. Hoever, it's soul gets colder as time goes by with more and more changes.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 10:40 AM ----------

So, how many things have to be super hard for the 1% before you're happy? You already have heroic raiding and high end pvp, what more do you want?

Only one kind of raid, like in BC, where ALL had a chance. People who wanted to put more effort and time were on the last tier raid, the rest were a tier lower, still having BiS loot (because tehre was no ilvl) and still fighting other guilds of their same level.


Plain simple.