Orgrimmar is going to be a bloodbath.

[Thetruth1400]

Yeah, but what they say holds far more weight than anything you could ever say, since they work on the game, and its their game, and you are just a player on some fansite.

Good day.

The players money holds a lot more weight then their actions by far. I suggest to those unhappy with things to do one thing, quit. Since they obviously don't listen to words, show them with your wallets that you're tired of the one sided story telling.

Beyond that, you sure have a negative attitude towards others that don't agree with your opinion. What they say doesn't matter because they don't work for Blizzard? How asinine and childish. It's time you grow up and realize that people have different opinions and just because they don't fall in line with yours or Blizzards it doesn't make them wrong. From Blizzard's own words, it's likely that we will not see any dramatic changes to reflect this siege. Going off the facts we have at hand, Kazomir is justified in thinking that the Horde will be fine and things will just continue on as normal after the siege. Understandably, the Horde can't be destroyed to the point of never being able to recover because it's half the player base. From a story point of view though, that's exactly what should happen. A completely unified Alliance vs the Horde, which was already a group of people that joined together for mutual survival, now infighting amongst themselves. It doesn't take a genius to see what SHOULD happen in a situation like that. This being a game that they want to continue though, it can't.

[Absintheminded]

Oh, look it's another Siege of Orgimmar QQ thread.

[Deleted]

People need to keep in mind that Varian's goal is not the utter destruction of the Horde, or revenge. Players might want to completely obliterate Ogrimmar and see the Horde destroyed and crushed forever but Varian's not out to do that. He's out to end the war. I don't see it as out of character for him to go in, smash up the place, dethrone Garrosh and leave the remnants of the Horde to pick up the pieces.

Not to mention there's still this moral about pride hanging out there from Shaohao. "Proud races will have to admit they need help." I'm thinking taking down Garrosh is going to require the rebels and alliance to work together, and Varian's not the type to then stab them in the back and kick the dog while they're down out of spite.

Old King 'Bi-polar mess created by the god-aweful comic' probably would, but then again he was bloody insane and affected by curiously specific racism. Fortunately they seem to have reined that in and made him more than just a racist chin with an ego and agression problems (also yell 'Defias!' near him and see if he still curls up into a ball and starts to cry or just starts screaming incoherently') to someone who is actually likeable. I like how they changed Varian into something a bit more human rather than just the Warchief of the Alliance.

[Florena]

Old King 'Bi-polar mess created by the god-aweful comic' probably would, but then again he was bloody insane and affected by curiously specific racism. Fortunately they seem to have reined that in and made him more than just a racist chin with an ego and agression problems (also yell 'Defias!' near him and see if he still curls up into a ball and starts to cry or just starts screaming incoherently') to someone who is actually likeable. I like how they changed Varian into something a bit more human rather than just the Warchief of the Alliance.

Yeah. Wolfheart and his leader short story had him getting over the 'bi-polar' thing from having two halves fused into one again. And Tides of War showed the result of this as well. Then come 5.1 and he flat out tells Anduin it's a war about 'love of what's right' rather than vengeance against the Horde. So it's clearly established Varian has no interest in getting revenge out of spite. So I honestly don't see him leaving Org after killing Garrosh as neccisarily ooc, though we'll need to see how things actually go down in the raid.

Even in Wrath he at least had clearly established reasons to hate the orcs. Being a gladiator slave, them destroying his kingdom/killing his father, the death of Lothar, etc, where as Garrosh we never learn his reason of 'the orcs are suffering in the desert while alliance have good land' until Heart of War, and even then you could argue his words in Wrath seem to go beyond that justification.

[Doombringer]

People need to keep in mind that Varian's goal is not the utter destruction of the Horde, or revenge. Players might want to completely obliterate Ogrimmar and see the Horde destroyed and crushed forever but Varian's not out to do that. He's out to end the war. I don't see it as out of character for him to go in, smash up the place, dethrone Garrosh and leave the remnants of the Horde to pick up the pieces.

Not to mention there's still this moral about pride hanging out there from Shaohao. "Proud races will have to admit they need help." I'm thinking taking down Garrosh is going to require the rebels and alliance to work together, and Varian's not the type to then stab them in the back and kick the dog while they're down out of spite.

Old Varian, yes, he wouldn't pass up the opportunity to stomp any and all Horde. New Varian... well, he understands the value of patience and thinks more tactically. He may be more "chill" now, but it will be difficult to pull away from "I have toppled the enemy's leader and have occupied their city." Huge strategic value there, considering the war is still ongoing. He may still need something to "nudge" him away from staying put in Orgrimmar.

There's also the will of the players working against him -- how will Varian be viewed by the Alliance players if he "gives up?" Blizzard has to think about that. On top of that, the Alliance is still the Alliance... will Tyrande, or the Hammer Council, or Greymane see wisdom in vacating Orgrimmar once Garrosh is dead?

[Deleted]

Yeah. Wolfheart and his leader short story had him getting over the 'bi-polar' thing from having two halves fused into one again. And Tides of War showed the result of this as well. Then come 5.1 and he flat out tells Anduin it's a war about 'love of what's right' rather than vengeance against the Horde. So it's clearly established Varian has no interest in getting revenge out of spite. So I honestly don't see him leaving Org after killing Garrosh as neccisarily ooc, though we'll need to see how things actually go down in the raid.

Even in Wrath he at least had clearly established reasons to hate the orcs. Being a gladiator slave, them destroying his kingdom/killing his father, the death of Lothar, etc, where as Garrosh we never learn his reason of 'the orcs are suffering in the desert while alliance have good land' until Heart of War, and even then you could argue his words in Wrath seem to go beyond that justification.

I'd not even try to justify Garrosh's behaviour or his sudden utter hatred for the Alliance as you can't not without handwaving away a lot of his character flaws. The Garrosh we got way back in BC was a broken male but we don't know what the Mag'har had been through and how that had affected him too. being depressed about daddy is one thing but it seems to have gone far beyond that in BC. Come Wrath suddenly he utterly HATES with a loathing passion the Alliance. Why? Who bloody knows!? Its not explained in game. This sudden shift can be laid purely at the feet of the comic. Thats where Varian becomes a horrific mary sue and Garrosh becomes a raging warrior who will swing an axe at you if you so much as say 'Alliance' in his presence. We got NONE of this in game, Varian appeared in a paff of particles one wednesday morning and if you clicked on him made amusing anecdotes that only folks who read the comic would get and understand. There was NO background to him in game, no lore, no nothing, it was all in the comic.

But even with him being forced to fight (and doing bloody well at it too and looking rather hot...er...umm..ignore that) his hatred was almost irrational. Lots of other people would have lost loved ones, their homes etc in the wars on both sides but Varian took that anger and ramped it up to 18. This in turn made him a real marmite character. You either loved him or loathed him with no middle ground. I like to think Blizz looked at him, the forums and even here and went 'yeah..he is a bit of a douche...' and you see that start to change at the end of Wrath with him allowing 'ol Saurfang to pass to collect his son's body and he even says kind things about him. To me it felt horribly forced but it was there none the less. In Cata again we see Varian toning back from KILL THEM ALL! PILLAGE THEIR WATER, RAPE THEIR HOUSES AND BURN THE WOMEN! which he was when first introduced.

He's now far more tempered and honourable rather than the very angry young man he was (need I mention the moira incident?) and you are right, I doubt he'd go 'okay Garrosh is dead. Fire up the gas chambers lads!' which the really rabid fanboys want to have happen. The Alliance will win their peace, and its peace won at the edge of a sword that could fall on the Horde permanently if needs be.

Re your post Doombringer I think they will. Trying to occupy Ogrimmar would just result in the war staring up again, trying to hold Durotar at the end of a VERY long logistics chain in hostile lands filled with hostile people would make the soviet invasion of Afghanistan look like a lovely day trip to the beach. They will have their peace, they will have the Horde surrender and pull back pending a peace treaty/disarmament. Occupying the lands of a broken people will just cause more resentment and violence that in reality both sides want to have end. Jaina will have her revenge by seeing the destroyer of Theramore (a legitimate military target killed in the wrong way) killed off and maybe she'll find peace in that.

Also who's Genn Greymane? Surely not that inconsiquential wall flower that stands in the Throne room of Stormwind doing absolutely nothing. Genn was a political animal (pun not intended) and you can imagine him dancing round Varian with words in a political arena and maybe even conspiring against someone who he could see as 'weak'. Thats the Genn I knew, not the one we have now.

[Deadite]

If anything the blue responses have suggested the opposite. That the Alliance will come out of this strong and unified, while the Horde has to pick up the pieces and rebuild. Doesn't sound like Vol'jin, Saurfang, Thrall or anyone else is going to boot the Alliance out.[COLOR="red"]

Why would they just leave? I cant really see why they would leave the capital city of the enemy when they have it at their mercy. Varian is an asshole who hates Orcs. You think he is going to waltz in slaughter everyone in a bloodbath , kill Garrosh and then just say 'Cheerio' and head back to Stormwind without some sort of external force? Someone or *dun dun dun* something will have to make them leave.

I hope it is Sylvanas and a horde of Forsaken but i think it will be more likely an Orc. Thrall or Varok. There is no way this expansion is going to end with anything other than the status quo fully intact. A change in Horde leadership is the only thing that will happen. Anything like the Alliance taking back lands is work that Blizzard are unwilling to invest in.

[Florena]

Why would they just leave? I cant really see why they would leave the capital city of the enemy when they have it at their mercy. Varian is an asshole who hates Orcs. You think he is going to waltz in slaughter everyone in a bloodbath , kill Garrosh and then just say 'Cheerio' and head back to Stormwind without some sort of external force? Someone or *dun dun dun* something will have to make them leave.

I hope it is Sylvanas and a horde of Forsaken but i think it will be more likely an Orc. Thrall or Varok. There is no way this expansion is going to end with anything other than the status quo fully intact. A change in Horde leadership is the only thing that will happen. Anything like the Alliance taking back lands is work that Blizzard are unwilling to invest in.

Have you been paying attention to Varian? His quote to Anduin about this war 'being about a love for what's right' and not about 'vengeance against the Horde?' The fact that he's not one to turn down diplomatic means for peace? (ie trying to recruit the Blood Elves back into the Alliance, the peace summit at Theramore, not going along with Jaina's plans to obliterate Orgrimmar in Tides of War?) He's not the same guy he was in Wrath, even if you don't read the novels/short stories his lines in MoP attest to this. In MoP he hasn't shown hatred towards the Horde as a whole, but just to Garrosh.

So no I don't think Varian would keep the Horde city occupied after Garrosh is deposed.

[Deleted]

The point of the Siege in my eyes is essentially the very meaning of it. Lets take Real World as an example. Imagine in the country you live in whatever country that may be, a man comes into power that slowly starts to phase out the current form of Government in the country and is basically becoming a dictator.

A few people start to realize what that man is doing and start to prepare for the worst, while others actually believe that this particular approach is the way to go and follow and near revere said man without question and doubt.

Now... this man has been left to exercise his new found power to the point where he controls the armies, the secret police, everything and everyone in your country.
But, the dominion he has over his own people in his own country is not enough for him. He paints himself an enemy and claims it is the enemy of everyone and is determined to destroy the enemy at all costs.

So he commits an act so heinous that it shakes the very foundations of the world, forcing everyone in it to ACT and remove him for the good of the whole planet and everyone on it.

With this new status this man has achieved, can you still call him part of a country ? part of a race ? part of a community ?
No he is his own entity.

EVERYONE has to band together regardless of country or opinion to rid humanity of this great evil.

Some of you will probably recognize this particular example from Real Life, alas the siege is here to teach us that petty squabbles and fighting amongst each other needs to stop not just so we can rid the world of a great evil, BUT for the evils that may come in the future.

Anyway.. thats how i see it :P

[Deadite]

So no I don't think Varian would keep the Horde city occupied after Garrosh is deposed.

That would make him a terrible leader. He could cut the heart out of the Horde in one move. I have not read Tides of War but the only restraint i have ever seen him show towards the Horde in any quest Alliance side was in Scenarios. In the Shield Wall quests hes the first one in when killing the Horde. I don't think they will spin this story in a way that wont piss half their players right off.

[Sandrox]

That would make him a terrible leader. He could cut the heart out of the Horde in one move. I have not read Tides of War but the only restraint i have ever seen him show towards the Horde in any quest Alliance side was in Scenarios. In the Shield Wall quests hes the first one in when killing the Horde. I don't think they will spin this story in a way that wont piss half their players right off.

They cant have that happen, because it would more or less remove the Horde from being playable. Thats why this entire war storyline is completely stupid. Neither faction can really be affected so the whole thing is pointless.

[Deadite]

They cant have that happen, because it would more or less remove the Horde from being playable. Thats why this entire war storyline is completely stupid. Neither faction can really be affected so the whole thing is pointless.

Oh i agree. The only thing that will change is Horde leadership.

[Trassk]

If saddam hussein, colonel gaddafi and joseph stalin where wow characters, you'd have the same kind of fans who support garrosh liking them.

"There so cool how they dictate and kill innocents and caused there country to live in fear of them"

[Deleted]

Imagine in the country you live in whatever country that may be, a man comes into power that slowly starts to phase out the current form of Government in the country and is basically becoming a dictator.

Well, a good dictator is actually a better form of government than democracy because it's much more efficient. No discussions, but action immediately. The downside is the risk that he becomes a bad dictator.

[Rend Blackhand]

If saddam hussein, colonel gaddafi and joseph stalin where wow characters, you'd have the same kind of fans who support garrosh liking them.

"There so cool how they dictate and kill innocents and caused there country to live in fear of them"

They'd be humans so you wouldn't have Garrosh fans liking them.

[Florena]

If saddam hussein, colonel gaddafi and joseph stalin where wow characters, you'd have the same kind of fans who support garrosh liking them.

"There so cool how they dictate and kill innocents and caused there country to live in fear of them"

There you go again equating what people like in video games to their real life morality.

[Trassk]

There you go again equating what people like in video games to their real life morality.

so your telling not a single thing happening in a fictional world could be equated at all to a real life comparison? I'm sorry, but, no, thats ludicrous, especially when its so obvious the developers DO create lore using real life comparisons.

Just because you can't make the comparison doesn't mean its not there, infact if you can't see it, it just says your not looking hard enough and have become so wrapped up in a fictional story you can't look outside the box.

---------- Post added 2013-04-27 at 06:49 PM ----------

They'd be humans so you wouldn't have Garrosh fans liking them.

Guess what, orcs are fictional characters. That doesn't mean the characterization in them isn't based on real life.

Thats like saying if someone makes a cartoon with talking rats and based one of them on someone they know irl, that its not a comparison because its a talking rat.

Tauren are based on native american culture, but I guess because there talking cow people you can't possibly equate them to that culture because there talking cows?

[babo7000]

If saddam hussein, colonel gaddafi and joseph stalin where wow characters, you'd have the same kind of fans who support garrosh liking them.

"There so cool how they dictate and kill innocents and caused there country to live in fear of them"

Most people like Garrosh because strife and conflict back into a game that had been lacking it. I don't think anyone, or at least I haven't seen anyone, who likes Garrosh because of the bad things he does, but more so the consequences of what he does.

Guess its just our aggressive sides. Those people you mentioned, much like Garrosh, cause conflict in the world. Just that in a game that conflict is a lot more fun and safe to experience.

[Frozen Death Knight]

so your telling not a single thing happening in a fictional world could be equated at all to a real life comparison? I'm sorry, but, no, thats ludicrous, especially when its so obvious the developers DO create lore using real life comparisons.

Just because you can't make the comparison doesn't mean its not there, infact if you can't see it, it just says your not looking hard enough and have become so wrapped up in a fictional story you can't look outside the box.

With your argument it would be like saying that just because I really like Arthas as a character, it would then mean that I would support such a person if he existed in real life. Sorry, but it does not work that way.

Also, the irony in your last statement is reaching "you are not prepared" levels here.

[Trassk]

With your argument it would be like saying that just because I really like Arthas as a character, it would then mean that I would support such a person if he existed in real life. Sorry, but it does not work that way.

Also, the irony in your last statement is reaching "you are not prepared" levels here.

ah but something you don't understand. when I come out of wow or not posting on this forum, I don't give a crap.

What makes a story work is having a real life comparison to the characters and events in that story we can relate to. You'd be lying if you convinced yourself what your seeing in a game like wow didn't reflect on people irl.
Infact its often been suggested the reason why people follow certain races in wow is because of them reflecting on there own real life interests, beliefs and outlook.

To that end, are people who like Garrosh so much open dictator irl too? Probably not, but they do get off on such a character being that much of a douchebag.