PvP Power Change official.

[Deleted]

Well according to them it's supposed to help with burst, I'm absolutely not convinced about that. All it does is to be even more beneficial for PvE geared people making the gap even in rated PvP far smaller than before.

In World PvP the 522 (soon 530) PvE gear was already superior, according to them however the "higher dmg" and "higher healing" was supposed to offset that (guess what, it really didn't, the difference is way to massive). So where does that leave us after the most recent change? Afterall PvP geared people just lost about 1/3 of their bonus dmg and healing.

In Rated PvP this is going to make some PvE pieces especially for classes who go for resilience far more beneficial seeing how they often have more sockets and thus allow for more gems and in some other cases this will make some T-pieces for set bonuses an even better/an alternative.




All in all MoP PvP is going into a direction I absolutely hate. I'm playing since TBC, I've always been a PvP main/only player and ofc I loathed seeing some PvE pieces in PvP. But making them flat out better for World PvP and a real alternative/often superior in ranked PvP gets me to the point for the first time where I really don't want to play this game anymore.

[Beefkow]

Im on the same boat as ya bro, pvp is just falling apart and the only solution is to either do pve or just quit this game all together, personally i would choose the 2nd choice.


Reworded this for you slightly (try not to insult groups of players) ~Snuggli

[Verain]

Well according to them it's supposed to help with burst, I'm absolutely not convinced about that.

Well, I have about 50% bonus damage from pvp power. That will go down to 32%. That means that I'll be doing 90% of the damage I'm doing now. That is definitely less burst. So it will do that.

All it does is to be even more beneficial for PvE geared people making the gap even in rated PvP far smaller than before.

Not in arenas. In arenas, PvE geared folks will be at a shocking (and unprecedented) disadvantage, with 502 LFR, 522 Normal mode raid, and 535 heroic (and don't forget the heroic thunderforged 2/2 gear at 549) that is MUCH harder to gain than PvP gear, all being shrunk down to 496. This gear will then be identical to the PvP gear, but that it won't have that 30-40% bonus to damage and healing, making PvP gear absolutely dominant in arenas, RBGs, and BGs.

This is intended, but it's very strong in magnitude. Now that they have finally separated PvP and PvE so distinctly, you can expect to see any number of changes that are meant to affect one but not the other. For instance, the 600 item level cloak on the PTR along the legendary quest would be ludicrous to import into an arena straight up, but doing so will shrink it down over 100 item levels to 496, making it strictly WORSE than the vendor PvP cloak.

In World PvP the 522 (soon 530) PvE gear was already superior, according to them however the "higher dmg" and "higher healing" was supposed to offset that (guess what, it really didn't, the difference is way to massive). So where does that leave us after the most recent change? Afterall PvP geared people just lost about 1/3 of their bonus dmg and healing.

They were lying or bad at math when they said that 496 + power was going to beat 522 in world PvP. It will be nowhere close now.

The heirarchy in a PvP instance will be:

496 PvP gear > 491 PvP Gear > 487 PvP Gear > 476 PvP Gear ~= 496 PvE gear ~= 481 PvP gear > Lesser PvE Gear.

The heirarchy in World PvP will be:

Heroic PvE > Reg PvE > 496 PvP > LFR > Lesser PvE Stuff.

In Rated PvP this is going to make some PvE pieces especially for classes who go for resilience far more beneficial seeing how they often have more sockets and thus allow for more gems and in some other cases this will make some T-pieces for set bonuses an even better/an alternative.

Which classes? We aren't talking about that many sockets, and sockets aren't free (they subtract from mainstats). I think you are referring to tanks in RBGs who don't care about their power- they will have small benefits from PvE (even LFR), but this won't change much with the PvP Power nerf.

All in all MoP PvP is going into a direction I absolutely hate. I'm playing since TBC, I've always been a PvP main/only player and ofc I loathed seeing some PvE pieces in PvP. But making them flat out better for World PvP and a real alternative/often superior in ranked PvP gets me to the point for the first time where I really don't want to play this game anymore.

I don't think you are alone. On one hand, handing out world PvP supremacy to arena players was just as arbitrary a choice. And it NEVER felt good to have to bag all my heroic gear that I worked so hard for (and yes, by time spent and by percent of players, everything but the 2200 rated pieces have always been easier to get than the PvE heroic pieces). My entire raid set has been an "instance only" set for seasons straight, with me always equipping my full resi set straightaway upon doing anything in the world. On the other hand, world PvP is still PvP. To have the gear be pretty much useless outside of special instances will probably have some really angry PvPers.

Do remember the flip side- you won't go into arena and EVER think "gosh I wish I had that bow that drains mana / that legendary set of daggers / that trinket that makes me almost immune to fear / that on-use trinket that gives me a bubble for half my health / that vial of shadows"- and the players who arena and raid will be losing out on that trick. Do you REALLY world pvp enough that this is a straight up bad trade for you- the absolute elimination of PvE gear in arenas, and the relegation of it to very rare tank niches in RBGs?

[Ragashii]

So what is the point of pvp gear now? Seriously. All you wait and see people...ugh. Now instead of stomping that raider that keeps ganking my alts and beating him with gear designed for pvp...i'll get destroyed on my main too. Excellent. I'm with you deleth, I kind of don't want to play anymore either.

I mean it'd be one thing if we knew about it and they had spent time talking about it. But instead they spent most of their time going on and on about how pvp gear would still be competitive. Then they do this. /rantoff

[Beefkow]

So what is the point of pvp gear now? Seriously. All you wait and see people...ugh. Now instead of stomping that raider that keeps ganking my alts and beating him with gear designed for pvp...i'll get destroyed on my main too. Excellent. I'm with you deleth, I kind of don't want to play anymore either.

Yeah, at this rate i probably can't even tell the difference between a 2.4k+ player and just a normal casual player, i want wotlk back where weapons were HARD to get (1850 in 2's was very hard) and having to do arena to get points (every tuesday, not on demand points) and having to achieve certain ratings to obtain the gear.

Everybody is the same now, no point of getting 2.5k (for a tabard??? or for a bloody enchant?? HA!).

[Baracuda]

I don't care if it's 1% better but BiS PvP gear(conquest) should always be better than BiS PvE gear(thunderforged heroic?) for all PvP, world pvp in this case. Maybe scale down to 496 outdoors too? It's not like you need more for monsters.

[Tojara]

People saying PvE gear is going to be better in ranked PvP are looking at very specific circumstances. Item with equal iLvL have the same amount of stats and PvP gear is awarded with PvP power for free that doesn't take away from the iLvL budget. Some PvE items have extra sockets, but it's not a whole lot of them. Sockets aren't free either, and take away from primary stats. All in all there might be some very slight gains, but more often than not it's a loss.

This is the only expansion they made significant strides to remove PvE gear from PvP and level the playing field as far as gear goes. TBC/WoTLK/Cataclysm WERE FLOODED WITH PVE ITEMS.

World PvP you have a point but whatever.

[Ragashii]

People saying PvE gear is going to be better in ranked PvP are looking at very specific circumstances. Item with equal iLvL have the same amount of stats and PvP gear is awarded with PvP power for free that doesn't take away from the iLvL budget. Some PvE items have extra sockets, but it's not a whole lot of them. Sockets aren't free either, and take away from primary stats. All in all there might be some very slight gains, but more often than not it's a loss.

This is the only expansion they made significant strides to remove PvE gear from PvP and level the playing field as far as gear goes. TBC/WoTLK/Cataclysm WERE FLOODED WITH PVE ITEMS.

World PvP you have a point but whatever.

With the nerf to pvp power, you can bet that pve trinkets will find their way into the game. Out in the world is what a lot of people care about too. Especially in an expansion DESIGNED to get us out INTO the world. Oh it's going to be just like the classic WoW that so many people seem to want. A guy in raid gear is going to show up and smash up your town while you're on an alt. Except that when you bring your main in PvP gear to drive the douchebag out he's just going to kill you since raid gear is better for killing players. As far as ranked games go, yeah this reduces the amount of burst on the table. Making CC even more important than it is now. Personally I'd rather die in 5 seconds than watch others die for 20 seconds.

[Verain]

I don't care if it's 1% better but BiS PvP gear(conquest) should always be better than BiS PvE gear(thunderforged heroic?) for all PvP, world pvp in this case. Maybe scale down to 496 outdoors too? It's not like you need more for monsters.

Yea, you obviously can't scale down the loot, the primary reward in the game, for "outside" because "you don't need it outside a raid". That would be WAY sillier than what they are proposing.

Also- Why do you care if BiS PvE is better? Keep in mind, heroic raiders are a small portion- but heroic thunderforged is FAR faller smaller than that. This sounds like an inflexible principle. Understand that PvE gear spreads a VAST gulf of itemization in the current paradigm. Saying you have to be better than heroic thunderforged- which only a small percent of heroic raiders will ever have a full set of- sounds straight up silly. It means that a raider would get 100% destroyed- no game at all- in normal gear. That might be what you want, but it's contrary to the "raid gear is instance gear only" thing that they are trying to fix.

That being said, there's a LOT of fixes. For instance, the pvp power on gear could be larger in the world, or the item level could be normalized to 510 instead of 496. I'm surprised at how dominant heroic raid gear will be over pvp gear.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 02:54 AM ----------

World PvP you have a point but whatever.

I don't feel it's fair to dismiss this. I mean, I'm all over not having to swap in PvP gear every time I do anything in the world. It feels lame to work so hard to earn raid gear and then only get to use it in raids. But at the same time, having PvP gear be so far behind is disheartening.

[Osmeric]

No one should ever gem for PvP power with this change, right?

[melodramocracy]

Everybody is the same now, no point of getting 2.5k (for a tabard??? or for a bloody enchant?? HA!).

The point you're missing is that everyone SHOULD be the same, and gear should never be anything more than cosmetic. If you want any semblance of balance in the pvp game, this is a pretty huge first step towards it.

[Baracuda]

Yea, you obviously can't scale down the loot, the primary reward in the game, for "outside" because "you don't need it outside a raid". That would be WAY sillier than what they are proposing.

Also- Why do you care if BiS PvE is better? Keep in mind, heroic raiders are a small portion- but heroic thunderforged is FAR faller smaller than that. This sounds like an inflexible principle. Understand that PvE gear spreads a VAST gulf of itemization in the current paradigm. Saying you have to be better than heroic thunderforged- which only a small percent of heroic raiders will ever have a full set of- sounds straight up silly. It means that a raider would get 100% destroyed- no game at all- in normal gear. That might be what you want, but it's contrary to the "raid gear is instance gear only" thing that they are trying to fix.

That being said, there's a LOT of fixes. For instance, the pvp power on gear could be larger in the world, or the item level could be normalized to 510 instead of 496. I'm surprised at how dominant heroic raid gear will be over pvp gear.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 02:54 AM ----------



I don't feel it's fair to dismiss this. I mean, I'm all over not having to swap in PvP gear every time I do anything in the world. It feels lame to work so hard to earn raid gear and then only get to use it in raids. But at the same time, having PvP gear be so far behind is disheartening.

With this last change even normal raid gear should be better. Gives us equal gear in world pvp scenarios or whatever idc just don't let PvE gear be (much)better!

[Beefkow]

The point you're missing is that everyone SHOULD be the same, and gear should never be anything more than cosmetic. If you want any semblance of balance in the pvp game, this is a pretty huge first step towards it.

So basically a noobie and a pro player are basically the same is what your saying, ok.

[Deleted]

No matter the pvp power change, that's actually good thing. Even before the change, 496 pve items with extra sockets are simply better than 496 pvp ones. The pvp set, and belt seems to come out on top, for the most classes, however neck, two rings, and cape, are definitely better with extra socket. So emphasize this everywhere on the official forums, and twitter, that especially 496 RINGS, NECKS, CLOAKS WITH EXTRA SOCKETS are no brainer upgrade compared to 496 tyrannical.

I don't really care about world pvp, but imagine that 4 496 items, possibly also, belt, chest, shoulders, legs, gloves are already better than pvp ones. Imagine 541 items in world pvp, pvp geared folks dont stand a chance in world pvp, it's more like lfr=pvp, normal much better, and heroic is rofl stomping everything. Where are the times when people with elite pvp gear actually had highest ilvl, not that I want that, I dont even want pve gear completely out of pvp, I just want the pvp gear to be clearly better than pve, in all matters of pvp, being instanced or world.

[Flaks]

The PvP power change was a necessity. The discrepancy between PvE and PvP in world PvP needs to be addressed in a completely different manner because if we keep trying to make sure PvP power is what makes PvP gear comparable to PvE then people will keep dying in 3 seconds to each other.

---------- Post added 2013-04-30 at 10:46 PM ----------

So basically a noobie and a pro player are basically the same is what your saying, ok.

No. What he's saying is that a noobie player who's good at playing his class can now compete with a geared player who doesn't have a clue. A pro player will still wipe the floor with any terribad that comes his way.

[melodramocracy]

No. What he's saying is that a noobie player who's good at playing his class can now compete with a geared player who doesn't have a clue. A pro player will still wipe the floor with any terribad that comes his way.

Exactly.

The game already has more than enough issues balancing the classes, gear and all its variants simply magnify the issue.

[nyc81991]

This will not really fix burst. The classes that do the highest burst damage (Frost Mages) will still do much more burst than others. And since healing is also lower it doesn't really counter damage being lower.

[Valedus]

This will not really fix burst. The classes that do the highest burst damage (Frost Mages) will still do much more burst than others. And since healing is also lower it doesn't really counter damage being lower.

But it does lower that mage's burst a bit. It just slows the pace of the game down, which I like a lot. I miss 7-8 minute matches instead of like 1-2 minute matches, if that.

Another question, though. How much scaling does each type of class get now? For instance, I've heard now hybrid healing is pretty strong in comparison to damage being dealt on the PTR, making a lot more of the hybrids more powerful. Can anyone comment? I really wish they'd get it all solidified and figured out like should have happened in 5.1 or 5.2 so PvP stopped being so up in the air.

[nyc81991]

But it does lower that mage's burst a bit. It just slows the pace of the game down, which I like a lot. I miss 7-8 minute matches instead of like 1-2 minute matches, if that.

Another question, though. How much scaling does each type of class get now? For instance, I've heard now hybrid healing is pretty strong in comparison to damage being dealt on the PTR, making a lot more of the hybrids more powerful. Can anyone comment? I really wish they'd get it all solidified and figured out like should have happened in 5.1 or 5.2 so PvP stopped being so up in the air.

Frost Mages can and will still kill people in a single deep freeze.

As for hybrid healing, It is actually lower now. Battle Fatigue was increased to 45% on the Ptr, so along with the PvP power nerf classes like Ret Paladins are healing for less. Even if you Gem strictly for PvP power your healing will be at least a few % less than live.

[Ebonheart]

Well according to them it's supposed to help with burst, I'm absolutely not convinced about that. All it does is to be even more beneficial for PvE geared people making the gap even in rated PvP far smaller than before.

In World PvP the 522 (soon 530) PvE gear was already superior, according to them however the "higher dmg" and "higher healing" was supposed to offset that (guess what, it really didn't, the difference is way to massive). So where does that leave us after the most recent change? Afterall PvP geared people just lost about 1/3 of their bonus dmg and healing.

In Rated PvP this is going to make some PvE pieces especially for classes who go for resilience far more beneficial seeing how they often have more sockets and thus allow for more gems and in some other cases this will make some T-pieces for set bonuses an even better/an alternative.




All in all MoP PvP is going into a direction I absolutely hate. I'm playing since TBC, I've always been a PvP main/only player and ofc I loathed seeing some PvE pieces in PvP. But making them flat out better for World PvP and a real alternative/often superior in ranked PvP gets me to the point for the first time where I really don't want to play this game anymore.

PVP in a game like WoW can never be balanced. It can only be balanced in an organised setting.

WPVP since the dawn of the game was never balanced. Early Vanilla you had Rogues easily killing 3-4 people at once. WPVP has never been organised PVP. You have a ton of random people ganking a lowbie or an undergeared player minding their own business. They only people I've seen bitching about these changes have been the gankers that thought they were so cool killing people geared in PVE.