Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Viromand]

Ok so looking at this log. Nr3 ranked palatank on ironqon 25hc
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-u0...?s=1508&e=2083.

Not the best sacred shield uptime or it would be nr 1 on healing done. Now he did almost 300k dps and 79k hps. Had alot of vengeance now pls dont tell me 100k hps is normal on palatanks. Now nr 1 and 2 have over 100k with good uptimes on the shield, but still thats iron qon 25hc and top 2 ranked have 100k hps. So 100k hps beeing normal i doubt that.

[Styl]

Dwarfs can solo tank heroic Iron Qon without a paladin in the raid.

[MerinPally]

It's not like a good prot pala hasn't been able to do this for a long time. In late WOTLK when I wasn't amazingly geared and neither were the dps, we did a Violet Hold heroic run where I only took I think it was 17-40k damage total in the instance. It's not OP it's just a good one will be able to do some silly things, same as the other classes. Also, looking at the top ranking dps paladins for the purpose of this thread is silly because they aren't playing like you would normally, they're playing in a different style to try and get high numbers purposefully at the expense of something else. Check a normal one.

[Deleted]

we had our prot war re-roll to prot pala this reset.. megeara rampages became a lot easier to heal suddenly (of course they would when hes doin 4-5mil healing and 100k+ hps, its like a 4th healer!).. and all farm boss's have been a lot easier as well.

Yet on almost all you kills your monk did more healing and a LOT more dps.

[DakonBlackblade]

Kinda off topic but how do you solo tank megaera, wouldnt the heads be pointed kinda in a bad direction if you did ?

[Odina]

Thing is, tanks doing damage doesn't change how they play. They get free AP for doing nothing, and they don't go with a full DPS rotation.

Tanks are topping meters on various fights for just being around and taking hits. It's no more fun of a gameplay style, they still have to use their defensive mechanics not to die, but the side effect is #1 DPS -_-

Really? So the prot war with glyph of heavy repercussions tossing out nothing but shield barriers can do as much dmg than if he was using shield block?

War with shockwave and storm bolt on a boss fight can do as much dmg than the tank using / lining up dragonroar and blood bath?

The war weaving in heroic leaps for more dmg when there is no movement inc will do the same dmg as the one that never uses it?

The war that uses shattering throw when there is no inc dmg to themselves wont help the dmg of the encounter?

The one spamming T-clap on CD instead of saving it just for weakened blows will do as much dmg?

How bout the one wasting rage on heroic strike while off tnaking rather than poping shield block to get even more dmg from hard hitting SS through glyph of heavy repercussions?


... I mean if there happy with mediocre performance then by all means they can still do good numbers with veng ..but to say it's a free #1 dps spot just for taking hits and not worrying about rotation is completely wrong!

[Nairobi]

Really?

... I mean if there happy with mediocre performance then by all means they can still do good numbers with veng ..but to say it's a free #1 dps spot just for taking hits and not worrying about rotation is completely wrong!

This is incredibly accurate, and often overlooked by people who want to just point at vengeance and say "Hey thats not fair!". While I won't go into nuances of paladin, or monk, or other tank classes for eeking out damage, the point is that a well-played tank will run circles around a "meat shield" who still subscribes to the "stand there and get hit" mentality.

Damage output is the last frontier for good tanks to show any modicum of skill-cap in this game. AM, for the most part, is considered baseline and mandatory for performance, not some show of skill. If you can't ShotR at the right time, you have no business trying to boost your damage output. But, like most things, once AM and encounter mechanics become second nature via repetition, all we as tanks have left to offer is our damage output (and perhaps healing output) to separate the men from the boys. And that is where the real fun, skill, and intelligent decision making comes in.

Sure, vengeance helps and props up our damage, but knowing HOW to maximize vengeance while not face-planting IS part of being a good tank. Knowing your class's cooldowns and mechanics, as well as those of your raid members, AND factoring in when you might need those later, allows you to make those calls. Can I stack up 1 more impale on IQ to get more veng, or do I need to clear stacks to help healers? Can I take an extra talon rake, or should I save the cooldown for something else? Do I have enough CDs to solo-soak a beam on Durumu without having the bleed get out of hand?

People who sit back and watch good-to-great tanks make it look easy and say "pffft, carried by vengeance" don't know what goes on behind the scenes of those players to make those #1-10 ranks happen, and you can be damn sure they got there for a reason.

[Prokk]

People who sit back and watch good-to-great tanks make it look easy and say "pffft, carried by vengeance" don't know what goes on behind the scenes of those players to make those #1-10 ranks happen, and you can be damn sure they got there for a reason.

This is VERY true. Knowing how to squeeze that extra DPS from mechanics is key to certain fights. For example, one Heroic Lei Shen, I soak the first decapitate with Ardent Defender. The way AD works is that it brings you back to 15% health from a killing blow. That debuff you get from Decapitate increases dmg taken. Use GoAK after taunting back will grant you insane amounts of vengeance. I easily do 250K+ DPS during those 30 seconds I get the debuff. Heroic Dark Animus, I soak an orb a few times for that extra vengeance and do high DPS for that amount of time.

Point is, vengeance does play a big factor in high dmg output. You just have to know where and how to use those mechanics to your advantage.

[nightfalls]

People who sit back and watch good-to-great tanks make it look easy and say "pffft, carried by vengeance" don't know what goes on behind the scenes of those players to make those #1-10 ranks happen, and you can be damn sure they got there for a reason.

Quoting myself several pages ago:

That and finally it irks me that vengeance encourages really stupid things, like purposely standing in shit to smoke out the meters more. Taking extra healing (as GC even blathered about on twitter) isn't supposed to reward you with more damage, yet it's exactly what it's doing, to the degree where if you aren't maximizing your unmitigated damage anymore, you're pretty much a bad tank.

[Nairobi]

Quoting myself several pages ago:

Not entirely sure I understand.

I'm not advocating that any tank TRY and tank MORE damage just to buff vengeance. What I am saying is that, through proper CD/AM/whatever usage, you can take EQUAL damage (or less) and GAIN vengeance, based on how vengeance is calculated off of UN-mitigated damage. So, on HC IQ for example, when I am taking 6-7 stacks on Impale, but with a 30-second ShotR from HA, it's the same damage as me tanking it with 3-3.5 stacks. However, I'm getting a shitload of Veng from that. Healers aren't suffering; in fact, due to being a paladin, they're actually bored at that point.

Maybe that was your point? That bad tanks see that behavior and try to emulate it (and do so poorly, causing MORE damage intake). If so, then yes of course I agree that is bad. But if you're saying that vengeance is inherently bad or flawed, I'd have to disagree.

[Viromand]

This is VERY true. Knowing how to squeeze that extra DPS from mechanics is key to certain fights. For example, one Heroic Lei Shen, I soak the first decapitate with Ardent Defender. The way AD works is that it brings you back to 15% health from a killing blow. That debuff you get from Decapitate increases dmg taken. Use GoAK after taunting back will grant you insane amounts of vengeance. I easily do 250K+ DPS during those 30 seconds I get the debuff. Heroic Dark Animus, I soak an orb a few times for that extra vengeance and do high DPS for that amount of time.

Point is, vengeance does play a big factor in high dmg output. You just have to know where and how to use those mechanics to your advantage.

Your hc leishen example is great, but most people will not be at that point.

best example is Jikun wasting a big cooldown to get a third stack, when there is no need the 5k extra dps is great overall. but if the other tank is on a nest you dont have you cd ready and you have to take another third one and you die the extra 5k will not matter.
I tanked with a pala and i survived 4 stacks with cooldowns, he died with three due to not beeing able to time his SotR right. he told me it would be less dmg, and its an instant cast jikun does.
Or jinrokh where i had to stop dmg for 15 secs to not get aggro with autoattacks sometimes my dot ticks stole his aggro.

So a bad Pala doenst make your Raid easier even if its a 520 pala. I would take any 505 Warrior that can play his class over every average pala who thinks his class is op so he can do what he wants. Was really happy to have a pala now we got a warrior again.

It funny how alot post here:"We changed to a Pala and it became so much easier". You look at logs, the reason they killed the boss was better debuffmanaging on prim, the pala not even playing good. Love how people just see oh we had pala and our other tank wasnt able to tank it. Not even thinking of the other 9 players doing a better job than the trys before that.

[Odina]

Quoting myself several pages ago:

Yet you can use a CD that can still be up when you need it, Soak some dmg with no detriment to your healers as the CD is eating the dmg then have more veng for things like a much higher soaking shield barrier and thus actually decreasing the need form your healers and helping them.

The main problem is when people eat more dg for the sake of eating more dmg but don't plan it out and just go "lololol heal me I'm going in for da deeps!". Negating dmg through CD usage when said cd's would just be on the back burner anyways to help dps, and soak / heal more is proper use of veng... taking more dmg for veng just to do more dmg and make your healers compensate is retarded!

[Homsel]

I think there are so many people overreacting over this "raid heal" issue. Generally when I look into my logs 90%+ of all my heals are self healing and even that includes about 50% absorption of any kind. I use battle healer, light's hammer as a group heal and occasionally off heal wog on the other tank. But even then there're no significant changes to those numbers.
Compared to a real healer my hps can get quite high, but only when I receive a bunch of vengeance. And if that happens to other tanking classes they can do some insane tricks, too. I can only refer to my experience on my dk, but dks can produce similar numbers in terms of hps as well. Therefore I'd rather say it's more a problem with the effects of vengeance than the prot pally hps on its own. (Especially "raid heal" - please check more data.)

PS: I'm actually ok with the glyph nerf, I'm a tank not a healer.

[shise]

I don't think you should focus on prot palas. In my opiion, focus on vengance. It's ridiculous imo. It's also good for 10 men as it allows you to have a nextra DPS... but c'mon, tanks topping DPS in fights shouldn't really happen.

Why? because healer = heal. Tank = tank. DD = DPS

[nightfalls]

I'm not advocating that any tank TRY and tank MORE damage just to buff vengeance. What I am saying is that, through proper CD/AM/whatever usage, you can take EQUAL damage (or less) and GAIN vengeance, based on how vengeance is calculated off of UN-mitigated damage.

That's exactly what I'm saying, maximizing unmitigated damage. Notice my language. This in turns means you take damage outside of what you should be taking, in other words, you have to take damage that can otherwise be avoided (either by not standing fire or by using 2 tanks for content that is intended to be 2 tanked).

So, on HC IQ for example, when I am taking 6-7 stacks on Impale, but with a 30-second ShotR from HA, it's the same damage as me tanking it with 3-3.5 stacks. However, I'm getting a shitload of Veng from that. Healers aren't suffering; in fact, due to being a paladin, they're actually bored at that point.

Right, which means you can claim the class is overpowered, because stacks that are designed to kill a tank (with his active mitigation active, by the way) are not.

Maybe that was your point? That bad tanks see that behavior and try to emulate it (and do so poorly, causing MORE damage intake). If so, then yes of course I agree that is bad. But if you're saying that vengeance is inherently bad or flawed, I'd have to disagree.

That's exactly what I'm claiming. I'm not claiming that people abusing it is flawed, because that's the correct thing to do. Not doing so is bad. But the mechanic itself is dumb and needs reworking in 6.0.

[DeathOfRa]

Prot paladins suck outside of raiding so it's okay.

[Deleted]

That's exactly what I'm saying, maximizing unmitigated damage. Notice my language. This in turns means you take damage outside of what you should be taking, in other words, you have to take damage that can otherwise be avoided (either by not standing fire or by using 2 tanks for content that is intended to be 2 tanked).

Well, I would argue that for a tank to move out of the fire is on one level.
For a tank to intentionally stand in fire with planning and thought behind it in order to maximise his performance is on a whole another skill level.
While it may seem wrong when looking at it, it feels so right doing it, since it brings tanking to a new level of min-maxing. Thing for me, I was always a dps, that was forced into rerolling tank, since then, I have kept the dps mentality of min-maxing, and I find it fun.

Before I went on my break I was for example rank 1 paladin on IQ. The only I did outside of the normal 1 tank fight, was that during the first phase, whenever I had DP (unglyphed) up, I stood in fire for the entire duration. I also stood in fire with GoAK, I stood in fire with DA+SF+AD, and I only reset my stacks twice during the entire fight. That is one of the fights that I 'intentionally' cheesed the fight.

At the time I was also rank 1 on Horridon and Tortos, did nothing special, standard solo tank tortos, dps helping me on the bats. On Horridon I did not even solo tank, however the other tank died when the War-God was on 30% and I steamed through the rest of the fight.
Was also rank 1 on Ji-Kun and did nothing cheesy there, 2 tanks, taunt at 2 stacks, nothing out of the ordinary. I didn't even soak a lot of poison pools.
The other tank ranked quite high aswell on the same kill.

So it is not like tanks are cheesing on every fight standing in shit. Come to think of it, fights that I have intentionally been standing in shit,

Horridon, sand shit on the first gate with DP unglyphed.
Tortos, somtimes took a rockfall intentionally
IQ, standing in fire and not resetting stacks more than needed
Lei-Shen, eating every decapitate.

Maybe forgot something now, but for me, that is all minor things.

As complex as tanking is now, reaching those rank 1-3 logs on a regular basis feels great, especially with all the thought behind it.
(doing so without cheesing encounters completely like having dps stop dps on fights like Elegon P3 or Horridon P5 to get tank dps higher).
My mentality is to do encounters properly, while still maxing performance. Pushing my max performance on tank is miles beyond what I ever had to do as a dps and I like it.

So I think that the mechanic may seem bad when looking at it, but I believe that it works perfectly.


And @ IQ stacks, I think it is wrong to say that those stacks are designed to kill the tank, they do far to low damage, very badly tuned. They are designed to tickle the tank.

[Dreyen]

I'm kinda boogled at people saying prot paladins are not op, they have the most drastic and powerful active mitigation that trivialize tank life-threatening moves from bosses.. nobody has an easy time like prot paladins on dire call + triple puncture + melee hit for exemple. Prot paladins basically have a shieldwall on demand of these kind of moves, unlike other tanks.. especially druids.

Hand of protection is definitely not a factor into this as any paladin can do it..

[Deleted]

I'm kinda boogled at people saying prot paladins are not op, they have the most drastic and powerful active mitigation that trivialize tank life-threatening moves from bosses.. nobody has an easy time like prot paladins on dire call + triple puncture + melee hit for exemple. Prot paladins basically have a shieldwall on demand of these kind of moves, unlike other tanks.. especially druids.

Hand of protection is definitely not a factor into this as any paladin can do it..

Paladins have the benefit of having the strongest AM, but they then have the drawback of being by far the most squishy tank when AM is down, add on top of that that their AM is the hardest to time of all tanks, making a death very easy to accidently happen.

An easy fix to this would be to simply increase paladins passive damage mitigation by a bit, and heavily nerf SotRs effect, but maybe buff the duration by 1 or 2 seconds. Say just throwing numbers from my head, add 10% more passive damage reduction (via more armor or whatever), and make SotR 50% less effective (a.k.a. if your SotR would currently be 50%, it would instead be 25%), increase the duration to 4.5 seconds and change mastery to reflect this, maybe to each point of mastery to provide 0.5% increase on SotR and a 0.1-0.2% passive physical damage reduction or armor or something like that.

Now that is of course just random numbers and ideas with not really much thought behind them, but that would fix the basic problem with paladins strength, that a well timed SotR is way to strong, but simply nerfing SotR wouldn't do the trick since paladins are so incredbly weak without it, so a change like that would work perfectly to put paladin closer to the other tanks. The current way paladins work heavily benefits skilled players and is a drawback for worse players in comparison to other tanking classes.

Cause as you say, paladins are OP on those physical damage nukes, which this tier seems to like, but outside of that, they are not really stronger than other tanks. Paladins are only 'OP' on those high physical damage nukes because of SotR. But it is only on those physical damage nukes that paladins are really stronger than the other tanks.

[Dreyen]

I've not confirmed it, but isn't ShotR uptime supposed to be 50%? Not all tanks get 100% uptime on their active mitigation, for exemple druids get 66% uptime. My paladin does feel squishier than my druid other than timed ShotRs, but theres such a huge ilevel difference i cant really compare them yet... but 50% uptime doesn't seem too bad.

Also i don't see how ShotR is hard to time, i went in ToT LFR and its frankly pretty damn easy, probably easier than warriors and DKs, just pool holy power until the attack comes, because if they waste their bubbles on a melee hit.. oh shit, while paladin? it's up for 3 seconds anyways, and besides you have dbm/casttimes to watch for, so its pretty much the same if you look at the cast bar of the boss.

And honestly, outside of "nukes", i don't think many bosses are that threatening with a simple melee autoattack... I just think the paladin ShotR should give them 100% block chance just like warriors, the difference being they block a steady, high amount rather than a chance of critical block, this way they wont circumvent mechanics that cant be blocked but can be reduced by ShotR, and mechanics that can be blocked, well shotr could still be used, and then everything can be balanced afterwards.. it's either that or buff other classes. Druid is probably the class with the biggest problem with these mechanics though, they really should get a beefy hp increase since their AM to counter big hits is a self-heal and not an absorb/damage reduction... either that or they should get such a mechanic.

I still think paladins got nice tools outside of shotr, they have sacred shield, high block amounts and their very high self-healing, my paladin co-tank actually outhealed my druid so hard on stone guard even though all i did was extremely well timed frenzied regens... I wouldn't consider them that squishy, especially with their pletora of tank cooldowns. (6 if you count devo aura and lay on hands..)