Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Prokk]

Howeveron if you scroll down you will see why paladins are topping top 100. They are the only class with a full sample size. You see that paladins have 100% sample size while the others only have about 80-90% samplesize which pushes paladins ahead. If the other tanks also had full sample size, they would probably be higher, as I was studying all the dps specs when ToT released and what I noticed from normal mode parses was that specs with non-full sample size got lower dps.

So those heroic top100 is not 100% accurate, the other links are more accurate.

This. Also, when going through several logs on heroic encounters, Prot Paladins are not always at the top. For example, compare damage output from Heroic Horridon or Heroic Iron Qon... Brewmasters are right up there with them. A few prot warriors are right up there as well. Find the logs, break them down, and you will see the difference.

[NRL1515]

If this was true, this thread would not have been started.



#bestmonkUSA right here

Because a thread has never been started by someone who was unsure of what they were talking about?

Granted, I'm not the best player in the world but I consider myself to be very good and I make the most of what I'm given. That's a whole different issue. All I'm saying is, Pallies are strong, yes, but other tanks can be just as useful, if not more so.

However, as most people are pointing out, a lot of people cannot put context with the information they are given from a healing/dps meter, and they freak out due to various reasons.

[Nairobi]

However, as most people are pointing out, a lot of people cannot put context with the information they are given from a healing/dps meter, and they freak out due to various reasons.

If this thread had a TL;DR, that'd be it.

[Deleted]

Howeveron

On a completely unrelated topic, what is Howeveron for a word? I like inventingon new words.

[Viromand]

Nice quote about paragon having a guardian druid, but i read one of their interviews, the guardian druid was there only to soak up stacks and do dps, whenever he didnt need to soak some stacks tank, the paladin was tanking full-time. They used their druid as a dps machine and for tooth&claw procs.

A that interview after they cleared 5.0. They said that about Sha second phase, due to higher vengeance scaling of the protpala and the druid beeing ableto do more dmg to the adds. BUT!!! sejta also stated in the same interview that druids can tank every boss on heroic in that tier without any problems.

With a Druid/pala comp thats how you do it. You let pala get vengeacne and still do 100k dps without hotw on all fights.

Yeah T&C is atleast 100k absorb on leishen normal first two phases, per stack. no vengeance abuse with debuff. High RPS druids its almost not problem maintining SD and using alot of T&C. If it would show up on hps meter, people will go crazy, druids so op pls nerf. Oh and without vengeance its 32k with my 522 gear, for the other tank aswell. now add that to hps aswell, cause as an offtank you use it every time it proccs.
Doesnt show up on logs so druids dont have it. dodging one attack, and getting two procs will almost negate the next melee that you dont dodge. I remember after our heroic stoneguard kill all my mates were like, wow druid does 45k hps, healing himself almost as mucha healer, so op. just cause they didnt know any other tanking class does almost the same amount.

i never seen a good monk, trust me i tried, but they just sucked all of them. Still Im not saying monk sucks balls. cause i know what they can do.

[NeverStop]

i never seen a good monk, trust me i tried, but they just sucked all of them. Still Im not saying monk sucks balls. cause i know what they can do.

I wonder why Riggnaros is playing Brewmaster then.

[Nuckels]

Protection

Shield of the Righteous now reduces the physical damage you take by 25, down from 30.

Well, was bound to happen but lame.

[Nairobi]

Well, was bound to happen but lame.

Prior to mastery scaling, so just a 5% redux. My ShotR goes from 50% to 45%, and battle healer heals the voodoo gnomes for 50% less. Sky is not falling, but hopefully this will appease the nerf-bat and pitchfork wielding masses.

[Deleted]

Prior to mastery scaling, so just a 5% redux. My ShotR goes from 50% to 45%, and battle healer heals the voodoo gnomes for 50% less. Sky is not falling, but hopefully this will appease the nerf-bat and pitchfork wielding masses.

I don't like this nerf. Those calling for nerfs are the meter-whores who don't like a Protadin or Brewmaster ahead of them on DPS/heals (even if half of those were absorbs) and while this nerf will have impact on us it will not get reflected on the meters (not like these people look at damage taken) so yeah, they'll still be crying for nerfs come 5.3

EDIT:

Last person I saw calling for Paladin nerfs was actually a Brewmaster who couldn't handle WoE HC and said Protadins could 'cuz they were overpowered. Funny enough, our hunter brought in his monk ALT and managed to tank the encounter a lot better and caused no issues to the healers.

I know calling for nerfs is a quick way to vent frustration but sometimes the issue is not in the game - it's between the chair and the keyboard.

[Deleted]

Because a thread has never been started by someone who was unsure of what they were talking about?

Granted, I'm not the best player in the world but I consider myself to be very good and I make the most of what I'm given. That's a whole different issue. All I'm saying is, Pallies are strong, yes, but other tanks can be just as useful, if not more so.

However, as most people are pointing out, a lot of people cannot put context with the information they are given from a healing/dps meter, and they freak out due to various reasons.

Not sure I agree with this. Cause no other tank can cheese mechanics with HoP and in this Tier HoP is just lol. Again, any Paladin spec can do that but we're talking Prot Paladins and they become so much more valuable due to this.

[Deleted]

No class should be able to 1 tank bosses so effectively without outside help while at the same time doing awesome HEALING and DAMAGE...

[blackblade]

No class should be able to 1 tank bosses so effectively without outside help while at the same time doing awesome HEALING and DAMAGE...

And that's mostly because they can quickly drop stacks ala HoP. Technically, if you had a holy or ret paladin in the raid and good co-ordination, you could do the same thing with any tanking class and a cancelaura macro.

That's a strong gimmick, true, but I don't think they can tank every single encounter solo.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Deleted]

No class should be able to 1 tank bosses so effectively without outside help while at the same time doing awesome HEALING and DAMAGE...

As been said so many times before, dmg done and healing done by Prot Paladins is being misread by a lot of people. Equal geared Paladin will not do the same amount of dmg as a Monk or a Guardian and most of the Paladins healing goes to himself. So it's not what really makes the difference. The difference is the amount of raid utility which is being enforced by shitty raid design that lets your cheese mechanics with HoP.

That said, I still think it's very OP that Paladins have both Ardent Defender and LoH with AM and Lights Hammer as well. The thing is, that Paladins don't have to sacrifice anything to use their utility compared to Guardians for example. If I want to use HotW Tranq, I have to go out of form=Dropping all Vengeance and Rage and I can't do it, if I'm tanking.

As I've said several times before, it's not so much Prot Paladin as it's game mechanics allowing them to be OP and the fact that atm Paladins and Monks are probably more "up to date" than the other tanking classes. What I mean by this, is that Warrior and DK dps seems "out of date", it's too low when compared to other tanking classes and specially on 10 man tank dps is very important. Guardians still have the archaic design of not being able to cast vital abilities in form - Dispel, Tranq, CR, Innervate and Mark of the Wild.

But that's not really a "Prot Paladins are OP" issue, that's an issue with other tanking classes and thus other tanking classes should be looked at in stead of just blindly nerfing Paladins (though I do think the nerf was justified).

I'd also like to remind people, that currently Monks, Paladins and Guardians have gear with dps stats, making the gap between them and DK/Warrior so much bigger. Paladins going with a Haste build, Guardians going for an RPS build vs. the old school DK/Warrior tanking stats. That makes threat an issue and the difference in dps between the tanks become so much more visible. So yeah, I believe that's also part of the reason why people think Paladins are OP.

[NRL1515]

As been said so many times before, dmg done and healing done by Prot Paladins is being misread by a lot of people. Equal geared Paladin will not do the same amount of dmg as a Monk or a Guardian and most of the Paladins healing goes to himself. So it's not what really makes the difference. The difference is the amount of raid utility which is being enforced by shitty raid design that lets your cheese mechanics with HoP.

That said, I still think it's very OP that Paladins have both Ardent Defender and LoH with AM and Lights Hammer as well. The thing is, that Paladins don't have to sacrifice anything to use their utility compared to Guardians for example. If I want to use HotW Tranq, I have to go out of form=Dropping all Vengeance and Rage and I can't do it, if I'm tanking.

As I've said several times before, it's not so much Prot Paladin as it's game mechanics allowing them to be OP and the fact that atm Paladins and Monks are probably more "up to date" than the other tanking classes. What I mean by this, is that Warrior and DK dps seems "out of date", it's too low when compared to other tanking classes and specially on 10 man tank dps is very important. Guardians still have the archaic design of not being able to cast vital abilities in form - Dispel, Tranq, CR, Innervate and Mark of the Wild.

But that's not really a "Prot Paladins are OP" issue, that's an issue with other tanking classes and thus other tanking classes should be looked at in stead of just blindly nerfing Paladins (though I do think the nerf was justified).

I'd also like to remind people, that currently Monks, Paladins and Guardians have gear with dps stats, making the gap between them and DK/Warrior so much bigger. Paladins going with a Haste build, Guardians going for an RPS build vs. the old school DK/Warrior tanking stats. That makes threat an issue and the difference in dps between the tanks become so much more visible. So yeah, I believe that's also part of the reason why people think Paladins are OP.

Dodge and Parry have quickly become outdated this expansion, so either the developers take a closer look at the tanking model that they want to achieve and ask themselves, how do we get there with each class and how they gear?

I think they had a good grasp on this when they made the monk class; I feel like other classes should see similar changes in upcoming patches/expansions. I like the new AM model (yeah yeah I know DKs were like this before) they've implemented for every class, and the developers do as well - but I think they wanted to use MoP as a measuring stick to see how the playerbase would react.

Granted this is conjecture, but if this continues, I think we can see the other tank classes in the future have some ability or passive baked into their spec that allows them to convert strength/crit/mastery/whatever into -> dodge, parry, or shield uptime or whatever they want to call it, to help out with their mitigation.

[Deleted]

Prior to mastery scaling, so just a 5% redux. My ShotR goes from 50% to 45%, and battle healer heals the voodoo gnomes for 50% less. Sky is not falling, but hopefully this will appease the nerf-bat and pitchfork wielding masses.

Think the nerf is in completely the wrong direction, it won't really accomplish anything, granted, they probably do not want to make any bigger changes to paladins, but this really changes nothing at all. Would rather have prefered a complete stomp to the ground to SotR down to like 25% and bring up our physical damage reduction to 25% and also nerfing MASTERY to give less on SotR and buff it a bit with some more passive reduction, this change does not affect mastery at all so it does not really accomlish anything.

[Kiqjaq]

As someone who's been bemoaning Pallies being OP, I think I'm pleased with the changes proposed. I think they'll bring Paladins where they should be.

[Deleted]

As someone who's been bemoaning Pallies being OP, I think I'm pleased with the changes proposed. I think they'll bring Paladins where they should be.

I am glad that you do not have enough knowledge of the paladin class to realise how insignificant these changes are, aswell as the previous change to the battle-healer glyph.
Hopefully it will satisfy you as it will not change anything in what paladins can and are doing right now.
As long as 'the nerf-bat and pitchfork wielding masses' are happy, I am happy that we get to see less QQ on the forums with no real logic or reasoning behind it.

[Kiqjaq]

I am glad that you do not have enough knowledge of the paladin class to realise how insignificant these changes are, aswell as the previous change to the battle-healer glyph.

What makes you think they need a major nerf? A bit less raidhealing and a bit weaker AM seems fine to me.
I realize they'll still be strong tanks, but then again I don't want to see them through the floor.

[Viromand]

I am glad that you do not have enough knowledge of the paladin class to realise how insignificant these changes are, aswell as the previous change to the battle-healer glyph.
Hopefully it will satisfy you as it will not change anything in what paladins can and are doing right now.
As long as 'the nerf-bat and pitchfork wielding masses' are happy, I am happy that we get to see less QQ on the forums with no real logic or reasoning behind it.

The prioblem is both nerfs are fine, the BH nerf making the glyph not mandatory anymore. The SotR nerf is fine not too much but still 5% is not nothing. The problem is you will get even more vengeance now, paladins will heal even more and top healmeters, people will cry. A small nerf to the hastescaling would have been a little better.

[Lethora]

The prioblem is both nerfs are fine, the BH nerf making the glyph not mandatory anymore. The SotR nerf is fine not too much but still 5% is not nothing. The problem is you will get even more vengeance now, paladins will heal even more and top healmeters, people will cry. A small nerf to the hastescaling would have been a little better.

BH is far from being mandatory nowadays, even pre-nerf. Especially in 25mans.