Why have Prot palas not been nerfed?

[Deleted]

The prioblem is both nerfs are fine, the BH nerf making the glyph not mandatory anymore. The SotR nerf is fine not too much but still 5% is not nothing. The problem is you will get even more vengeance now, paladins will heal even more and top healmeters, people will cry. A small nerf to the hastescaling would have been a little better.

BH was not mandatory before or now, I am not using it on several fights. It has in my opinion been the most overated glyph of protection paladins, yes, it has been good on some fights, but far from mandatory on all fights. Also vengeance is calculated pre damage reduction so no change in vengeance.
I yes, the nerfs are fine, I'm just saying that for those that were calling for the holy grail of all nerfs to prot paladins this is not it. Both nerfs have been extremely minor and how no real impact on protadins in any way.

And again, problem is not haste scaling. Paladins are already in the middle of the pack while stacking haste, a nerf into haste would require a buff into dps since protadins dps is not even above other tanks right now. What for me is the problem and what should be "fixed", is that paladins on-demand physical damage reduction is way to strong, and their passive reduction is to low. Seems kinda obvious how to fix both of those. But then again, talking about on-demand physical damage reduction *cough* stagger *cough*, paladins are not the ones in most needs of a nerf.

As I see it, we there are two ways of action here. One is to bring the way warriors, dks and druids closer to monks or paladin, or the opposite. The problem right now is not that one is stronger than the other hands down, just that in some niche situations, some of them become way to strong. This current tier have had the recurring factor of huge physical damage nukes, which have greatly favored monks, paladins and to some degree druids aswell.
If this tier had not featured physical damage nukes on pretty much every fight, we would be having a completely other discussion right now, but the obvious problem is that both monks and paladins got a great physical damage reduction AM while the others does not, so either reduce that AM, and bring up their passive reduction to be on-par with the other tanks, or bring up the other tanks AM to work more similar to monks/paladins.
These changes that have been made, accomplish neither. For me, they are just placebo nerfs to satisfy the crowd.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 09:51 AM ----------

What makes you think they need a major nerf? A bit less raidhealing and a bit weaker AM seems fine to me.
I realize they'll still be strong tanks, but then again I don't want to see them through the floor.

Pretty much what I said above, I do not think they need a major nerf. I am just saying that these nerfs, are extremely minor, the sky is not falling.
What I do believe, as I mentioned above, is that one of the active mitigation playstyles needs a rework.

Currently we have the dk/warrior AM which is kinda similar (yes, different effects but they have the same weakness and strengths), the paladin and monk playstyle of huge on-demand physical damage reduction, and the druid one being an oddball being somewhere in the middle. The problem is that on paper, they are all about equal, however when you mix in physical damage dots and nukes into the situation, monks and paladins get favored. So either rework them to be more similar to the others, or rework the others to be more similar to them.

[Dysheki]

Guardians still have the archaic design of not being able to cast vital abilities in form - Dispel, Tranq, CR, Innervate and Mark of the Wild.

Those are quality of life issues and should be some of the least concerns for Guardians. I think they would be more worried that their AM is dodge and most big hitting boss abilities (that often increase with damage as the fight continues or as long as they are tanking) are undodgable.

[Deleted]

Those are quality of life issues and should be some of the least concerns for Guardians. I think they would be more worried that their AM is dodge and most big hitting boss abilities (that often increase with damage as the fight continues or as long as they are tanking) are undodgable.

You're taking what I said out of context, well done. Ofc it's an issue for Guardians, when we have a Tier of bosses with abilities that can 1 shot you, but one way of negating that is changing your build. HotW, get some more Stam for EH and have your CD's ready.

Again, you took what I said out of context. Cbf repeating myself or explaining why I mentioned it. Go back and read......

[Choptimus]

As someone who's been bemoaning Pallies being OP, I think I'm pleased with the changes proposed. I think they'll bring Paladins where they should be.

Won't change a thing. This is a stamina buff, nothing else.

[Deleted]

Those are quality of life issues and should be some of the least concerns for Guardians.

An additional remove for curse/dots on Horridon progression comes actually quite handy compared to hitting another damaging style. Our monk tank has regulary 8-10 dispells on is belt on this fight and our dps'ing shaman/mage ~5. Now imagine you'd have none of those classes, in the end everything counts.

And having your only CR on the tank can be really awful (depending on boss mechanics) as well, and for tranq... well all other tanks raid cooldowns can be popped without much thinking, for this you need *some* preperation.

---

Newest paladin change is to small to make a noticeable difference, i'd actually love to see a solid handling for sacred shield instead of making minuscule adjustments to other parts of him. It's rather obvious when despite the 2 piece set boni absolute NO serious prot paladin is raiding with either eternal flame or selfless healer. Either change %scaling factor of it or whatever, right now it's like a second active errr passive mitigation on top of everything else. Just have a look at http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...a-Den-25-Kill-! - 160k hps, when only 25% of that is raidheal that's still 40k less raidheal this team has to apply compared to a warrior tank, not speaking of his high damage output on top of that.

Maybe they should just bring an overhaul to vengeance in general, without plenty of additional attack power all tanks seem somewhat in the same boat (well with monk dps being to high) but adding 50, 100 or 200% more attack power than maybe intended/calculated/assumed and everything is just way off.

[Ninotchka]

Which fights do you not use BH on? I've been just leaving the glyph on full time; I'm interested to hear which ones it's least useful for.

[Deleted]

Which fights do you not use BH on? I've been just leaving the glyph on full time; I'm interested to hear which ones it's least useful for.

On most bosses it become a matter of, is another glyph better? On a lot of fights, BH is not that good, but that doesnt mean that you don't use it since maybe there is no other option. Fights that I think BH is outright bad on.

Council, Tortos(the heal, it is good for getting aggro on bats if solo tanking), Ji-Kun, Animus, Twins

Fights that I can also consider changing it out or other more needed glyphs can be Horridon, Primordius, IQ, Lei-Shen.

For me I only feel like it is mandatory on Jin'Rokh, Megaera and Durumu, and that is mostly because having unglyphed DP feels mandatory here so you got 3 glyph slots available here.

[Laz]

this really should have been titled "Why have threads like this not been nerfed?" should have threads like this shredded and burned for being stupid

[Deleted]

Just have a look at http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...a-Den-25-Kill-! - 160k hps, when only 25% of that is raidheal that's still 40k less raidheal this team has to apply compared to a warrior tank, not speaking of his high damage output on top of that.

And how much would a monk have healed? Which would have been a lot better raid healing the paladin provided. How much would a prot warrior reduced with safe guard, How much would a guardian druids tooth and claw have saved?

The main difference here is that paladins raid heal shows up on the meters, which is all most people here see, the meters, they don't see the actual effect of things and how other effects that works below the surface helps.
Tooth and Claw and Safe Guard is two of the single most powerful abilities that any tank class has right now, yet nobody is ever mentioning them, why? Because they dont provide hps on the meters.

[Annarion]

As someone who played a DK tank for most of WotLK, I'll have to disagree with you. Only DKs and Bears could tank Sarth+3 when it was current. Prot paladins have always had the best toys to play with, but they've not always been the tank of choice. And considering only Warriors could tank Illidan, it's not always been the case that they have the best toys ever. No, I more think that the kit that prot pallies have is far less situational than that of other tanks. Also druids have always been bullshit, jtlyk. They've had their stamina bonus and dps nerfed more times than I can remember. And people are right, you could do any of those things with just a ret in your group and communication.

[Nairobi]

On most bosses it become a matter of, is another glyph better? On a lot of fights, BH is not that good, but that doesnt mean that you don't use it since maybe there is no other option. Fights that I think BH is outright bad on.

Council, Tortos(the heal, it is good for getting aggro on bats if solo tanking), Ji-Kun, Animus, Twins

Fights that I can also consider changing it out or other more needed glyphs can be Horridon, Primordius, IQ, Lei-Shen.

For me I only feel like it is mandatory on Jin'Rokh, Megaera and Durumu, and that is mostly because having unglyphed DP feels mandatory here so you got 3 glyph slots available here.

Will say that I leave it in mostly out of laziness, and run Alab/BH/Floater. I don't think I can agree with you on the fights in bold, at least for Heroic, as there is a load of raid damage. Council twisted fates/Kazra reflects, JiKun caws and quills, Twins has tons of collateral dmg, Horridon as well, Primo has caustic gas and other mutations, IQ has raid damage in all 4 phases, and Lei Shen has lots of low raid damage.

I also def run unglyphed DivProt on JinRohk, Council and Megaera heroics (and Lei Shen), but I glyph it for Durumu (mostly because I run UbS instead of Clemency on this as most others do, so I get to use DivProt as a cooldown throughout instead of just color phase).

Usually use Focus Shield when I don't have DivProt glyphed (except on Lei Shen, where I use Holy Wrath instead to stun ball lightnings). Exception to this is Council, where I go with Final Wrath to keep up the AS cleave.

Not saying either way is def right or def wrong, just that I feel that BH can usually contribute more than any other alternative on pretty much any fight. I can see removing it on Tortos to try and tone down aggro issues, but nearly everything else I've seen has at least some use for it. My $0.02 anyway.

[Homsel]

Would rather have prefered a complete stomp to the ground to SotR down to like 25% and bring up our physical damage reduction to 25% and also nerfing MASTERY to give less on SotR and buff it a bit with some more passive reduction, this change does not affect mastery at all so it does not really accomlish anything.

I think it would not be a fun design to switch back more to passive damage reduction, this would be a bit more to the old ctc design of the cata days. The current design has cool, challenging aspects and give us therefor an exciting play style.

I strongly agree this nerf hits in the wrong direction. Still all problems with vengeance mentioned by so many people remain.

[Deleted]

Nah, it is hard to say one is right or wrong. I just think that the raid damage is not static enough to justify BH on most of those fights. Like Ji-Kun, quills is not enough for me to justify having BH, that is not even 5% of the fight where BH actually helps you. I much prefer having focused wrath for a quicker burn phase. Same goes for horridon, rather having a quicker burn, especially since focused wrath can crit for over 3-4 million there.

For me, if the fight does not include long static raid damage, BH is not worth grabbing. The only times I grab it is when it is obviously useful or when the other glyphs are bad for some reason (i.e. dont need focused shield or similar). For me, it is the fall back glyph when nothing else make sense.

---------- Post added 2013-05-08 at 03:15 PM ----------

I think it would not be a fun design to switch back more to passive damage reduction, this would be a bit more to the old ctc design of the cata days. The current design has cool, challenging aspects and give us therefor an exciting play style.

I strongly agree this nerf hits in the wrong direction. Still all problems with vengeance mentioned by so many people remain.

Ye, I agree with you. But in this case, the direction should not have been to change protection paladins AM, but rather to change the other tanks towards monks and paladins AM.

[Viromand]

As someone who played a DK tank for most of WotLK, I'll have to disagree with you. Only DKs and Bears could tank Sarth+3 when it was current. Prot paladins have always had the best toys to play with, but they've not always been the tank of choice. And considering only Warriors could tank Illidan, it's not always been the case that they have the best toys ever. No, I more think that the kit that prot pallies have is far less situational than that of other tanks. Also druids have always been bullshit, jtlyk. They've had their stamina bonus and dps nerfed more times than I can remember. And people are right, you could do any of those things with just a ret in your group and communication.

You cant compare Tanks with other expansions. Each time they changed so much. They reason you Druids and DK tanked sarth 3d was due to the incredible high amount of Stamina they had. Its much closer now then it was back than. Now AM is what tanking is about.

Back in BC the only two tanks you could use where Druids and Warriors, you jsut wanted a pala for third boss in sunwell and MH trash. Not seen a single tankpala in WotLK, tbh.

Still you cant compare between expansions.


@firefly: I would wonder if T&C would show up on the meters and sacred shield would not. Would paladins get the mastery buff that druids got and druids the AM nerf. This thread would be so full of druid op crys.

[Deleted]

@firefly: I would wonder if T&C would show up on the meters and sacred shield would not. Would paladins get the mastery buff that druids got and druids the AM nerf. This thread would be so full of druid op crys.

Could be possible, but I would like to have faith in that the people in charge of class balance have more thought behind their logic than the people in this thread and actually understand how the classes works and looks deeper than the first layer of damage meters.

[Nairobi]

Back in BC the only two tanks you could use where Druids and Warriors, you jsut wanted a pala for third boss in sunwell and MH trash. Not seen a single tankpala in WotLK, tbh.
Still you cant compare between expansions.

Wait wait wait....WAT? No tank pal in LK?! Umm, Holy Wrath on H Anub and H LK was like MANDATORY. 9-6-9 was basically AFK to win...Not saying that's good/fun (it's NOT!), but there were more Protpals than pretty much anything back then (minus Protwar maybe). Maybe it was a US vs EU thing?

Anyway, as stated time and again, because the Protpal raid utility/healing shows up on meters, people overlook the tangible benefits of other tanks. Nothing new, people see what they want to see and use selective info/data to prove or prop up a point. Still keeping the faith (lol, get it?!) that devs and balancers will approach upcoming changes from the point of bringing other tanks UP, not bringing monk/pal DOWN (and BACKWARDS towards passive/D+P style).

Also, get rid of dodge/parry gear.

[Dysheki]

You're taking what I said out of context, well done. Ofc it's an issue for Guardians, when we have a Tier of bosses with abilities that can 1 shot you, but one way of negating that is changing your build. HotW, get some more Stam for EH and have your CD's ready.

Again, you took what I said out of context. Cbf repeating myself or explaining why I mentioned it. Go back and read......

I don't feel like I took anything out of context. You said:

As I've said several times before, it's not so much Prot Paladin as it's game mechanics allowing them to be OP and the fact that atm Paladins and Monks are probably more "up to date" than the other tanking classes. What I mean by this, is that Warrior and DK dps seems "out of date", it's too low when compared to other tanking classes and specially on 10 man tank dps is very important. Guardians still have the archaic design of not being able to cast vital abilities in form - Dispel, Tranq, CR, Innervate and Mark of the Wild.

And I said I think those are the least of a Guardian's worries. I would worry more about what tanks need: survivability, not archaic design of niche abilities. Maybe you have a point with some of them but they would not be at the top of my list of worries when comparing them to what makes Prot Paladins OP (which is exactly what you do).

An additional remove for curse/dots on Horridon progression comes actually quite handy compared to hitting another damaging style. Our monk tank has regulary 8-10 dispells on is belt on this fight and our dps'ing shaman/mage ~5. Now imagine you'd have none of those classes, in the end everything counts.

Sure, it would be nice, but it's extremely situational (removal of a curse would be useful for one fight in this entire expansion so far). Personally I wouldn't argue about the need to remove curse in form and instead call for a change in the design of the fight.

And having your only CR on the tank can be really awful (depending on boss mechanics) as well, and for tranq... well all other tanks raid cooldowns can be popped without much thinking, for this you need *some* preperation.

It's not impossible to BR without leaving form. NS it.

[Deleted]

Could be possible, but I would like to have faith in that the people in charge of class balance have more thought behind their logic than the people in this thread and actually understand how the classes works and looks deeper than the first layer of damage meters.

I doubt they have that class of insight, or they wouldn't have gone with irrelevant random changes. They just gave this tier as lost in regards to balance. If they intend to change anything, it will be via 5.4 and raid mechanics.

I have no doubt that the next tier will be as disastrous, though. Enjoy your expansion.

[Deleted]

I don't feel like I took anything out of context. You said:


And I said I think those are the least of a Guardian's worries. I would worry more about what tanks need: survivability, not archaic design of niche abilities. Maybe you have a point with some of them but they would not be at the top of my list of worries when comparing them to what makes Prot Paladins OP (which is exactly what you do).


Sure, it would be nice, but it's extremely situational (removal of a curse would be useful for one fight in this entire expansion so far). Personally I wouldn't argue about the need to remove curse in form and instead call for a change in the design of the fight.


It's not impossible to BR without leaving form. NS it.

I do believe it was taken out of its context. Cause I was explaining why I believe Prot Paladins are being considered so OP this Tier in comparison to other tanking classes and thus I was making a comparison when it come to utility. I didn't mention survivability a single time, cause honestly I don't even feel Guardian survivability is an issue.

But when a whole Tier of bosses favor things Paladin utility, then yes, other tanking classes fall short when comparing said utility.

About NS as instant CR, what a fucking waste to only take NS for an instant CR. Meaning you'd either take your chance and hope it's ready when you need it or just don't use it at all, in case you might need it.

[Viromand]

If your tank is the only one with BR. that would mean you dont have a Holypala WL hunter Dk or another druid in your raid. So that means you have 1 tankdruid and the rest of the raid is monk rougue shaman mage priest and paladin that is not heal.

even than its not impossible to rezz as a druid on alot of nh fights you two tank the boss, so no prob there. And if you raid heroic you should consider an extra class with br. there are 4 classes which can BR and 1 in holyspec if you have a druid giving him symbiosis. so thats 5. Its really rare to not have one. And NS is a 1min cooldown and a strong selfheal aswell. And lets not forget as a druid you can use rejuv in bearform while hotw is active and its not "that bad".